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Pilgrim
Pilgrim
NH, USA
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Recent Posts
Apologetics
by Tom. Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:05 PM
Starting Out
by ReformedDisciple. Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:25 PM
Learning Presuppositional Apologetics
by Tom. Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:14 PM
The PCA's Slide Into the Homosexual Abyss Accelerates
by ReformedDisciple. Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:50 PM
Conspiracy?
by ReformedDisciple. Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:32 AM
AN EARNEST PLEA TO SUPPORT THE HIGHWAY
by Movinforward86. Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:40 PM
Active Threads | Active Posts | Unanswered Today | Since Yesterday | This Week
Theology Discussion Forum
2 hours ago
I know Jeff Durbin has been attacked quite harshly by Pulpit and Pen (I would stay away from Pulpit and Pen) concerning things like alcohol.
I watched a broadcast with James White interviewing Jeff Durbin on the controversy this caused.
This just might have something to do with why Jeff Durbin spoke on that topic?
I think it is a good idea to listen to Jeff again, to understand the full context.
Tom
15 486 Read More
Open Forum
2 hours ago
Originally Posted by Pilgrim

Colossians 2:13-23 (ASV) "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day: which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ's."
[/quote]

What exactly does this amount to expositionally? (actual word?) giggle

Also, when I refer to private/personal worship, I think what I mean is in reference to music. Do all things to the glory of God, right? So in my choice of music day to day, as I listen, my heart and mind begin to literally direct those lyrics (those that are not in contradiction to Scripture or heretical, as most mainline and mainstream Christianity and Christian music are) toward God. Whether those lyrics are expressing characteristics of God or praising him for, well, basically any reason, really. All this while I'm walking somewhere or going on a jog or working out. In this respect, is there anything wrong? (I think this has, all along, been the main point of my question(s))
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Open Forum
Yesterday at 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by ReformedDisciple
If I understand correctly, corporate worship and praise are meant to be done exactly as God says explicitly, but in personal praise and worship, we are allowed to be more expressive? <<I'm thinking of our freedom in Christ.

Yes to the first part.... corporate worship is to be in spirit and TRUTH, i.e., nothing is to be done in the formal worship of God which is not specifically set forth by God Himself. There are things which are given in a broad sense, e.g., there is no mandate for the people of God to meet at exactly 9 am EST. There is no regulation as to how many Psalms, Hymns or Spiritual Songs are to be song, or the length of a sermon, etc.

However, in "personal praise" as you have chosen to call it, you are ONLY "free" to do that which God has deemed "good". There is NOTHING that is neutral, i.e., neither good or bad. Everything falls into only 2 categories: good or evil. If it is good, then God has stated so and thus it is proper for a true Christian to say, think or do. But even that is regulated according to the doctrine of Christian Liberty. See these, for examples:
- Christian Liberty by A.W. Pink
- Freedom in Christ by G.I. Williamson
- The Weak and the Strong by John Murray

Anything which is not "good" is sinful and thus is forbidden. Scripture gives some specific examples of those things which are forbidden. And, Scripture also sets forth principles which cover everything else.

Quote
2 Corinthians 6:14-18 (ASV) "Be not unequally yoked with unbelievers: for what fellowship have righteousness and iniquity? or what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what portion hath a believer with an unbeliever? And what agreement hath a temple of God with idols? for we are a temple of the living God; even as God said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore Come ye out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, And touch no unclean thing; And I will receive you, And will be to you a Father, And ye shall be to me sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."

Colossians 2:13-23 (ASV) "And you, being dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, you, [I say], did he make alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses; having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross; having despoiled the principalities and the powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day: which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ's. Let no man rob you of your prize by a voluntary humility and worshipping of the angels, dwelling in the things which he hath seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast the Head, from whom all the body, being supplied and knit together through the joints and bands, increasing with the increase of God. If ye died with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, do ye subject yourselves to ordinances, Handle not, nor taste, nor touch (all which things are to perish with the using), after the precepts and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will-worship, and humility, and severity to the body; [but are] not of any value against the indulgence of the flesh."

1 John 2:15-17 (ASV) "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the vain glory of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."
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Open Forum
Yesterday at 09:36 PM
Originally Posted by ReformedDisciple
[quote=Pilgrim]
See also, The Marks of Neo-Liberalism.


Just read this. I need to do more research because I am quite astonished to find out what was said about Van Till, and Bahnsen if I'm not mistaken? Also, RC Sproul Jr too? Did Sr know about this? Anyway, Van Till and Bahnsen are both on my reading list for apologetics, esp. in presuppositional apologetics. This is the first I've heard anything about them in a negative light. I understood them to be giants in the Faith.[quote]
I've spoken with Dr. Elliott personally and we agree to disagree re: his criticisms of Van Til. I'm not saying that Van Til didn't hold to some error... who doesn't? rolleyes2 Bahnsen, of course, was very good in the area of apologetics, but his "Theonomy" was tragically bad theology. I enjoy eating the fruit but spit out the pits, if you know what I mean. :grin And lastly, re: R.C. Sproul, Jr. is a sad case and his father's failure to distance himself from him is unfortunate. Rarely can you find second, or third generation progeny of 'giants in the faith' that are like their parent(s).

Originally Posted by ReformedDisciple
As an aside, the part about Luke 5:31-32, correct me if I'm mistaken but something occurred to me whilst reading this article. It's this: That "righteous" and "sinners" here refer to a mindset or characteristic, in that Jesus is not saying that there are righteous people, but making a distinction between those who think they are righteous/good and those whom the Spirit have humbled and convicted and know they are sinners. Would this be a correct theological view or exegesis of this particular scripture?

yep And this is truth that is today often ignored or flatly denied. What I'm referring to is what is referred to as a "credible profession of faith". A sinner who has been visited by the Spirit of God, through the instrumentality of the Bible and its truth brought home to bear upon the soul, is first convicted of their sin. What the regeneration of the spiritually dead soul by the Spirit reveals to the sinner is that he/she is a vile creature before God and has never had a good thought, never spoken a good word and never done a good thing since conception. And, that born again sinner is smitten through and through with the burden of guilt duly acknowledged for being such a corrupt and God-hating person and thus worth of eternal damnation by God. How often have you heard anyone speak of these things in these terms in regard to their professed conversion? How often, if ever, do you hear preaching that presses this truth home from the pulpit? How many books have you read that even mentions such things? drop This, my friend, is a fundamental element of the Gospel which the modern 'church' knows little about and when it is mentioned, it most always is met with strong resistance and rejection.

Want a excellent example? grin

1 & 2 The Strength of Sin
3 & 4 The Strength of Sin
5 & 6 The Strength of Sin
16 389 Read More
Open Forum
Yesterday at 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by Pilgrim


Just read this. I need to do more research because I am quite astonished to find out what was said about Van Till, and Bahnsen if I'm not mistaken? Also, RC Sproul Jr too? Did Sr know about this? Anyway, Van Till and Bahnsen are both on my reading list for apologetics, esp. in presuppositional apologetics. This is the first I've heard anything about them in a negative light. I understood them to be giants in the Faith.

As an aside, the part about Luke 5:31-32, correct me if I'm mistaken but something occurred to me whilst reading this article. It's this: That "righteous" and "sinners" here refer to a mindset or characteristic, in that Jesus is not saying that there are righteous people, but making a distinction between those who think they are righteous/good and those whom the Spirit have humbled and convicted and know they are sinners. Would this be a correct theological view or exegesis of this particular scripture?

Thanks!!
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Open Forum
Yesterday at 01:44 PM
Okay, I think I understand the issue. Sort of like OT players who made offerings and sacrifices to God that God never said he wanted. (It's a shame how much of my bible I'm still not familiar with, or rather, only barely familiar with) The example I'm thinking of is during the time of David. I believe it may have been King Saul? Anyway, I believe I've made my point. grin

If I understand correctly, corporate worship and praise are meant to be done exactly as God says explicitly, but in personal praise and worship, we are allowed to be more expressive? <<I'm thinking of our freedom in Christ.

FYI, I've yet to read any of those links. I'll do that now thewave
16 389 Read More
Open Forum
Yesterday at 11:26 AM
Originally Posted by ReformedDisciple
Originally Posted by Pilgrim

5. A rejection of the "Regulative Principle of Worship" which allows for basically anything to be included in the worship of God, including such things as heavy metal rock music, liturgical dance, plays, etc., etc., ad nauseam.


I have to admit, I'm in favor of variety in Christian expression... is this acceptable but different than in the context of worship during church?

Also, what's liturgical dance?

1. The biblical doctrine of "The Regulative Principle" of worship simply stated is, Man is not to worship God by any means whatsoever which God Himself has not commanded man to do. This Regulative Principle addresses not only the outward/physical manner of worship, but the content of that worship and even the very soul of man, i.e., what a man thinks, desires and does 24/7 and particularly when man gathers together for corporate, formal worship.

2. The true worship of the one true God encompasses all of life, both individually and corporately. This can be described as separation [from the world] (cf. Jh 15:19; 1Cor 10:1ff; 2Cor 10:1-6; Col 2:8,9; Heb 12:28,29; Jam 4:4; 1Jh 2:15,16; et al.

3. There are quite a number of articles on The Highway that deal with the subject of worship and of separation. Here are a few suggestions for you:
- The Scriptural Regulative Principle of Worship
- The Reformers and the Regulative Principle
- Worship in the Melting Pot
There are many more articles on worship and the elements of worship, e.g., music, etc. which you can find here: Calvinism and the Reformed Faith > Ecclesiology.

On the matter of daily living, aka: sanctification, the daily worshiping of God in everyday life, living separate from the world, click on the "Praxis" button in the Calvinism and the Reformed Faith section.
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Theology Discussion Forum
Yesterday at 10:55 AM
Originally Posted by ReformedDisciple
Yeah... I've looked at those. I need to re-watch the video I heard it mentioned in. "Powerful talk on overcoming addiction" by Jeff Durbin. He makes the connection that Alcoholism (formerly known as drunkenness) is idolatry, and therefore not a "disease" but instead a form of sin and a worship problem. Essentially 'misguided worship'.

Calling drunkenness, idolatry, is a bit of a stretch, IMO. The Bible doesn't associate drunkenness with idolatry and I find no biblical warrant to do so. To use Mr. Durbin's hermeneutical gymnastics one could make the case that an excess of or strong affection or even attraction for anything could be called "idolatry" because you aren't 100% given over to loving God and Him alone with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. The biblical teaching is that idolatry is substituting a man-made god, whether physical, intellectual and/or emotional, for the true living God. And in doing so, exalting whatever it may be to the status which belongs to God. Paul wrote that sinful man exchanges the truth for a lie and worships a false god of their own making.

Quote
Romans 1:18-25 (ASV) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves: for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature [that which was created] rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
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Open Forum
Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:14 PM
So do I, though I do know that ones testimony of what the Lord has done in a person's life can be powerful.

Tom
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Open Forum
Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:42 PM
I thoroughly agree with Pilgrim's response
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Theology Discussion Forum
Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:38 PM
Yeah... I've looked at those. I need to re-watch the video I heard it mentioned in. "Powerful talk on overcoming addiction" by Jeff Durbin. He makes the connection that Alcoholism (formerly known as drunkenness) is idolatry, and therefore not a "disease" but instead a form of sin and a worship problem. Essentially 'misguided worship'.

I had someone ask me to show them where it was at in scripture calling drunkenness idolatry..
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Open Forum
Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:26 PM
Originally Posted by Pilgrim

5. A rejection of the "Regulative Principle of Worship" which allows for basically anything to be included in the worship of God, including such things as heavy metal rock music, liturgical dance, plays, etc., etc., ad nauseam.



I have to admit, I'm in favor of variety in Christian expression... is this acceptable but different than in the context of worship during church?

Also, what's liturgical dance?
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Open Forum
Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:50 PM
Thank you crazyeyes
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Open Forum
Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:37 PM
FYI, on this discussion board you have 6 hours open time to Edit: add to, correct, modify, etc., any new post or reply. Thus, you don't have to do post a reply to yourself if you wish to edit within that 6 hours. wink
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Open Forum
Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:19 PM
Also, is the firstthings.com a Catholic site?
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Open Forum
Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:27 PM


this article states, near the end, that the bible does not condemn homosexuality as an abomination... yet my bible (ESV) does. confused confused
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Open Forum
Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:23 PM
There are far too many things to list in regard to the downward spiral of the OPC, which was founded in 1929 by J. Gresham Machen et al. Here are a few of the major apostasies that have taken over that denomination and their seminary, Westminster Theological Seminary in both Philadelphia, PA (my alma mater) and Escondido, CA:

1. Norman Shepherd's damnable heresy of the doctrine of justification by faith alone, which is found in several forms including Federal Vision.

2. Failure to discipline John O. Kinnard. See here: Orthodox Presbyterian Church Endorses Teaching of John O. Kinnaird.

3. The "Hermeneutic of Trust" was adopted. An example of this heresy is the OPC's ruling that basically all 'theories of the creation' are equally acceptable except for Darwinian Evolution. What this means is that the "Standards" (WCF, Shorter Catechism, Larger Catechism) and Scripture allow for the 6-day 24 hour Creation view and the various Framework views to be preached and taught in the churches.

4. John Frame's "Multiperspectivalism" was adopted. What this means is that Scripture can have several "meanings" depending upon the reader's "perspective". This is a flat denial of absolute truth and particularly that God had no particular meaning men should understand when they read the Bible.

5. A rejection of the "Regulative Principle of Worship" which allows for basically anything to be included in the worship of God, including such things as heavy metal rock music, liturgical dance, plays, etc., etc., ad nauseam.

See also, The Marks of Neo-Liberalism.
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Theology Discussion Forum
Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:04 PM
I don't know of such a verse. :sad:

The closet verse that came to mine was Col 3:5 which speaks of idolatry, but drunkenness isn't included. And, vice versa, there is Gal 5:19-21.
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Open Forum
Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:53 PM
Okay and what's wrong with the OPC? I thought Orthodox and Presbyterian were both good things to look for? Both insinuating "reformed."
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Theology Discussion Forum
Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:43 PM
Thanks guys! You both are a great help! I appreciate the advice and warning, Pilgrim. So I have a new question, as an aside: Doesn't it say in the bible somewhere in the NT, not in the gospels; after a long list of sins types, it calls them idolatry, one being drunkenness? I could've sworn it ended like "drunkenness, which is idolatry."

Any clue?
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Theology Discussion Forum
Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:32 PM
ReformedDisciple
The reason I post that was it brought back memories from when I was struggling with this issue.
When I used that arguement against a Charismatic, I thought it might be helpful to show the kind of response you can expect.
I only wish I could remember how to answer them.
Tom
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Theology Discussion Forum
Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:32 PM
Originally Posted by ReformedDisciple
Am I not making my question clear, though? I was wanting some scripture references to pull from against someone who says that the spirit has spoken to them... in every kind of case. I think audibly or emotionally would be the two most common.

Do not give in to the tendency to look at the Bible as an encyclopedia. nope Answering such people is typically difficult due to the fact that doctrine is established from "The Analogy of Faith", i.e., comparing Scripture with Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation. Rarely will you find the proverbial 'silver bullet' that will slay the error. And, the truth is, "A man with a doctrine is no match for a man with an experience!" [Linked Image]

What you are looking for is contained in several areas of study, e.g., the divine inspiration of the Bible, the formation and close of the canon, the purpose of the ecstatic gifts and how they fit into the formation of the Church, the authority of ALL of divine revelation, etc., etc. Typically, those who promote a non-cessationist position are not given to objective truth but rather emotionalism so trying to offer a rational argument from the Bible is often an exercise in futility. If you haven't learned already, hopefully you will... You need to make a judgment whether to engage someone on a particular topic or to shake the dust of your sandals and walk away. Even the Lord Christ, who had all wisdom, told His disciples "Let them alone: they are blind guides. And if the blind guide the blind, both shall fall into a pit."
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Theology Discussion Forum
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:30 PM
Thanks to you both for your input! I will be sure to peruse the ExCharisma section.

As to you, Tom, are you hoping for discussion in this thread?

Also, to Pilgrim, I would think this subject falls under this category also due to the nature of my question. Bear in mind I'm not creating division here... only attempting to clarify so as not to go outside the group guidelines. I want to be sure to post appropriately. compute

I appreciate you both!

Am I not making my question clear, though? I was wanting some scripture references to pull from against someone who says that the spirit has spoken to them... in every kind of case. I think audibly or emotionally would be the two most common.
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Open Forum
Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:15 AM
PCA = Presbyterian Church of America (see here: The PCA's Apostasy: No More Lines in the Sand by Dr. Paul Elliott. And, The PCA's Slide Into the Homosexual Abyss Accelerates


OPC = Orthodox Presbyterian Church
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Theology Discussion Forum
Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:30 AM
I agree with what Pilgrim said here. However, I remember a response way back when I was struggling with this issue, that I received when I said to a Charismatic basically what Pilgrim said.
The following comes from memory, so it might not be the persons exact words.
"In answering this, let me answer it by asking a question, that in effect answers what you said.
Was every real prophecy that was said in biblical times, recorded in Scripture?
If you answer no (which I am sure you will) then you have in essence answered one of the main reasons why I am not a Cessationist. To be sure, anything said must not contradict God's Word and although it is true the canon of Scripture is closed, it should become obvious that these gifts are still in operation and the gifts have not ceased."

It has been quite a while, sinse I actually studied this subject with any depth; so I actually can not remember what I came up with concerning what this man said.
What Pilgrim said just brought back this man's answer to me.
I thought perhaps, I need a little reminder in the hope I remember. Perhaps, it might even become a fruitful discussion?

Tom
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