Second, after taking a Scripture out of it context (long hair does not = cigars), you assume it is natural not to smoke.
Let me see if I understand you correctly. You are actually arguing that because people have smoked for thousands of years (yes Joe, I know about Columbus and Sir Walter Raleigh too) that it is "natural" to smoke in the same sense that eating is natural? Oh really? How interesting, I never thought of it that way Joe.
Second, you tell us that you don't smoke, but I seem to recall when I posted on this subject some months back, in which I mentioned specifically smoking in relation to desecrating our temple, perhaps you recall, but anyway I seem to recall you mentioning smoking a pipe at that time, and you also tell us that your doctor has approved your smoking 1 pipe per week? Well, I guess I'm a little confused here. Why would your Dr. approve something you don't do?
As for Spurgeon's conviction of sin and his confrontation with Pentecost (sorry I said Dr. Irons in my last post meaning to say Pentecost) over the issue I find your arguments unpersuasive. I have no idea whether Spurgeon was convicted by the Spirit or not, certainly Pentecost was, as were quite a number of others in the Christian community at the time. Just because a person does something doesn't mean he wasn't convicted by the Spirit on the issue.
As for your arguments about the Medical Communities postion on the issue at the time of Spurgeon, again, very unpersuasive. I'll go with the facts and the obvious, that being taking smoke into the lungs is not natural, normal, healthy, beneficial etc.
When Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomachs sake and for his many ailments, he didn't say take a little smoke. Maybe there is a good reason why.
But if you want to smoke Joe and you think it's good for you to do so then by all means don't let this screaming legalistic pharisee's views disturb you. You do whatever you want in your temple and I'll do what I think is right in mine.
As to your wife's glandular problem, if you're refering to low thyroid, I haven't looked up the data so if your Dr. says 1 in 20 I won't argue with him, but it seems that obiesity is much more common in this country than 1 in 20, which was my point, and further, I don't believe that obiesity, or mentioning it as a sin, makes me a legalist.
Second why do you bring up smoking and obesity at all? The conversation was in regard to the millennium views of Spurgeon, or are you taking a jab at me? If so I don't appreciate it at all.
I brought it up for the reasons I clearly stated in my post, which you might go back and reread, not to "take a jab" at you. I have no idea what your condition is with respect to weight or smoking, and I shared with you the Lord's dealing with me in this area.
If your conscience is bothering you because you have a weight problem however, as your brother in Christ it would be an act of love to confront you with it not only because it is sin, if it is indeed obiesity, but also because the health effects are well established.
Perhaps you might find interesting Jay Adams' (a legalistic pharisee of some repute) writings on the relationship between sickness and sin in his Competent to Counsel. I found it most interesting and beneficial reading.
In Him,
Gerry
Last edited by acts2027; Sat Jan 17, 200411:39 PM.
Let me see if I understand you correctly. You are actually arguing that because people have smoked for thousands of years (yes Joe, I know about Columbus and Sir Walter Raleigh too) that it is "natural" to smoke in the same sense that eating is natural? Oh really? How interesting, I never thought of it that way Joe.
No, Gerry that is not the point <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/drop.gif" alt="" />
I was using history to show that people have “natural tendencies” given by God for certain things. We are all born with “general tendencies” and develop others throughout life. You like and dislike certain foods? As an infant you could not give me certain baby foods or you would get them back quick <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/puke.gif" alt="" /> We are each born with certain chemical make-ups that make us prone, some to sweets, some to vegetables, some to…. Some people have a natural inclination for tobacco type products—as shown from the brief history that was already posted (the point). Again, there is nothing wrong with this as balanced by what was said already in the other posts.
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Second, you tell us that you don't smoke, but I seem to recall when I posted on this subject some months back, in which I mentioned specifically smoking in relation to desecrating our temple, perhaps you recall, but anyway I seem to recall you mentioning smoking a pipe at that time, and you also tell us that your doctor has approved your smoking 1 pipe per week? Well, I guess I'm a little confused here. Why would your Dr. approve something you don't do?
I am very confused by this as well, [color:"FF0000"]as I never stated it[/color]. Please feel free to do a search and locate it…. and when you do not find it feel free to post an apology for your misrepresentation of the facts. Also, where did you ever get the notion that my doctor said I could smoke a pipe once a week? I have extremely HBP and it is very difficult to regulate. No doctor in his right mind would EVER say smoke to someone in my condition!!! I guess we are playing Gerry's Guessing Game? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/jester.gif" alt="" />
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When Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomachs sake and for his many ailments, he didn't say take a little smoke. Maybe there is a good reason why.
I have never heard of tobacco as a cure for an ailing stomach? Wine is a proven remedy for this. Maybe Timothy was like me and did not like the taste of tobacco? Of course, if your logic is so clear to you then this should assist you in seeing how irrational it is: Paul did not say, “post on the Highway forum for your stomach’s sake” either. Thus, you should not make any more posts.... We will see if that is really what you believe?
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As to your wife's glandular problem, if you're refering to low thyroid, I haven't looked up the data so if your Dr. says 1 in 20 I won't argue with him, but it seems that obiesity is much more common in this country than 1 in 20, which was my point, and further, I don't believe that obiesity, or mentioning it as a sin, makes me a legalist.
The point is that Spurgeon could have been in the 1 in 20. He could have had a low metabolism. He could have had a problem with his enzymes. The simple fact is YOU do not really know and for you to state emphatically that he was a glutton and in error for overeating makes you a false accuser of the brethren. All you have done is “speculate” off a picture with no medical data and against his very word that he said he would not openly sin in this way. There is no defense for this (1) it is sin (2) it is irrational (3) it is being dishonest with the facts that you “really” have. In the end, we may find that Spurgeon knew that tobacco was bad for him and that he overate on purpose (though he has stated otherwise), but this will not correct the fat nature of your "illogical" thought.
I guess I can only speak for myself, but I know that if I started smoking, knowing that I could possibly cause my health harm. It would be because of rebellion that I did so. I think rebellion would be that moral law you are asking about.
As far as the body issue, yes it should be a concern, but 1 (example) pipe smoke a week I doubt will harm the body any more than me having a desert every now and then, though I have HBP (my doc approved 1 per week). We do not stop eating just because overeating is a sin, thus....
In Gerry's defense, on this matter, this sentence is a rather confusing sentence on first read, but after a re-read, I saw that you meant one dessert per week, not one pipe per week! I hope that clarifies a little, and brings the "heat-level" down a little! troy
Grace is but glory begun; Glory is but grace perfected! - Jonathan Edwards
I know that if I started smoking, knowing that I could possibly cause my health harm.
What are you going to eat?
Doctor’s now say, “We already know that frying foods is unhealthy, but now scientists say even grilling and broiling — cooking anything at high temperatures — could be wreaking havoc on the heart. The FDA has ruled that by 2006, all processed foods must note on the nutrition facts label the trans fat level. The concern about trans fats is that they act like unhealthy saturated fats, raising LDL cholesterol (the bad cholesterol) levels in the blood. But trans fats pack an even more potent nutritional whammy than saturated fats – they lower the HDL cholesterol (good cholesterol) as well"
Scientists now say that of the 99% of the foods we eat, “The acid wastes, toxins, mutagens, and carcinogens that build up within cells, as well as the daily onslaught of excess free radicals eventually cause some cells to become cancerous – killing an estimated 30% of Americans….. Some of the waste material builds up in the arteries and clogs them, leading to high blood pressure, atherosclerosis, arteriosclerosis, strokes, etc. – killing an estimated 35% of Americans.”
So we cannot cook food or eat processed foods without there being some risk—and thus with your logic we should not eat any of them. This leaves us with natural vegetables. I am sorry I have more bad news even here, as, “A study in a recent issue of the highly respected journal Science reported that lipid hydroperoxides (rancid fat molecules) react with vitamin C to form products that could potentially harm DNA.” Pesticides on fruits and vegetables may cause cancer. During the Clinton administration this report surfaced, “The National Research Council of the National Academy of Sciences received headline coverage across America for its report "Pesticides in the Diets of Infants and Children." NRC concluded that there was "potential for concern" about the risk agricultural chemicals pose to those under the age of 18….NRC reports that childhood cancers have increased 7.6% since 1973.” I am sure we could go on and on about every food group, et. al.
Now some of these reports may end up being false in the long run, but if you stay around long enough others will surface. If we follow the rule of thumb that we cannot eat anything that “may be bad” for us then in all honesty you will not be here 40 days from now. Maybe sooner as you would not be allowed to drink water either. We live in a fallen world. A fallen world has diseases and “all kinds of things” (even the air: are you going to stop breathing?) is harmful to us. Yes, we live in a fallen world and thus I see the importance all the more so to pray for what we eat. Yes, eat as healthy as you can, but that glass of O.J. may be destroying your DNA ! Pray for your food and your meds!
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1 Timothy 4:1-9 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/ranton.gif" alt="" /> I guess we could have a New Weight Watcher's Bible: Luke 10:8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you after analyzing its DNA chemical makeup.... and calling Jenny Craig...Of course, I like this report, "Chocolate may be better for your health than tea because it contains more of a chemical that could prevent cancer and heart disease...The new research measures the amount of catechins - the chemical thought to be behind the benefits - in different types of chocolate....Catechins are believed to protect against heart disease and cancer and so eating products that contain them could have health benefits." I need a box of Godiva's. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rantoff.gif" alt="" />
I apologize if that was confusing (though it clearly makes a comparison using the words: ...any more than...). If someone reads "all the words" in the post, it does compare "a person" that may smoke a pipe once a week with "me," whom my doctor allows 1 desert per week (pipe and desert are clearly spelled differently) ..... Of course, I am still looking for the post where it says I smoke, that Gerry seems so sure of.....Maybe this is the thread he is speaking of? Of course, there is one of our members here that smokes a pipe. Maybe he will decide to pipe in as well and shed some light on the matter.
Gerry I understand your occupational/environmental health experience, but you cannot take this and become legalistic about it. You yourself have said, "I wasn't going to post anything on smoking because I figured everyone would just take it as another legalistic or self righteous post, a label I no doubt deserve."
I obviously don't consider smoking a pipe a sin; i.e., a violation of any of the moral laws of God. There are situations where I do choose not to smoke my pipe for the sake of a weaker brother/sister. But this is my right and duty as is laid out by Paul, particularly in Romans 14.
As to the health issue and tied in with that the biblical texts, e.g. 1Cor 3:16 that speak of my body being the temple of the Holy Spirit. First of all, the Holy Spirit isn't being affected by my pipe smoking. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Secondly, just living on this corrupted earth exposes my body to all kinds of pollutants and foreign substances which were not here before the Fall. People are dying of cancer, strange viruses, heart disease, etc., where smoking or drinking or any of the other "cardinal no-no's" aren't done. George Burns lived past 100 and was a very heavy cigar smoker. Yes, heavy cigarette smoking is a definite contributing factor to lung cancer, emphysema, and other ailments and is something I think should not be done. However, many years ago, I took out a large life insurance policy. One of the questions asked in the preliminary interview was, "Are you a smoker?" I answered, "Yes, I smoke a pipe". The salesman replied, then we will check "No, non-smoker" because we (the insurance company) don't consider pipe-smokers to be smokers. The company also required that I submit to a rigorous physical examination to ascertain my physical health for obvious reasons. After the examination report came back, the salesman sat down with me once again to tell me that I was in great physical health and that he could then proceed to process my policy. I asked him what the examination revealed about anything that would relate to my pipe smoking and he said that all the blood tests, lung x-rays, etc. all showed no signs whatsoever that I smoked. There was distinguishable nicotine in my blood, lungs where clear, etc.
So.... bottom line for ME is that I will continue to enjoy smoking my pipe as long as I am able to do so. In almost 30 years, I have only had [color:"red"]2[/color] people complain about my pipe. Both were radical environmentalist, healthniks that looked like they could use a healthy dose of vitamin supplements. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> The overwhelming majority of people enjoy the aroma of my pipe tobacco.
Again, if someone thinks that they can build a biblical case to prove that I am sinning against God by smoking a pipe, they are free to try and do so. But like Spurgeon, I am not convinced there is any such "proof", for if there was, I would surely repent and quit smoking a pipe immediately. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I was thinking as I was reading this thread about the verse in Hezekiah. "You shall not have a BMI over 25. You shall not eat any processed food with any chemicals. You shall not eat white flour, or white sugar. You shall drink no caffeine. All are an abomination."
I started doing this awhile back. Til I realized that I was thinking WAY too much about what was going on with my body. I started feeling as though my body was becoming a sort of idol. I was going to post the verse, but Joe already did, that we should eat what is set before us because, when we thank God for it, He sanctifies it. I always pray over our food too.. with that in mind, with a truly thankful heart that God has provided for us and that I was able to come up with something to cook.
I am overweight.. but I have been pregnant for FIVE years! lolol. And I am working on it now.. counting calories and all. But I don't think I am in sin because I am overweight. However, I do feel convicted when I eat til I'm sick like I did at Christmas. People don't need to be fat to be gluttons either.
As far as Spurgeon goes, he did not have the benefit of Tony Robbin's "Gazelle' or the nordic track, or the total gym. The man was in pain all the time, and I am thinking he didn't exactly have the energy to go for a couple mile jog.
Also, from what I understand, the tobacco that was smoked during his time was not the harsh addicting kind that we have these days. So this is in defense of Spurgeon.. as though he needed it.
Guess what? I smoke! I have seen these kinds of discussions before and have found them rather fruitless. I've even had them with myself in my own head <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" />
I have tried everything to quit and just can't. I sometimes wonder if God will have to be the one to "deliver" me.. because if I do it on my own, I will get prideful. Who knows.. what I DO know, is that this in particular is between me and God. This is one of those areas where one should not judge. I think that if I were just a casual smoker, I would not have any issue with it. Anyway.. that's it! Just my nasty little opinion <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I think we can all agree here that we don't want to be the health police to one another! Enough has been said already and this hasn't been the most edifying conversation. There has been a lot more heat than light, get it? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Gerry to clue you in the only thing that bothers me with regard to my physical condition is that I can't kick people in the head any more because of a training injury and the fact that now that I am older it sometimes takes me two hits to make these young bucks stay down. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
That is why I said "I can only speak for myself". I don't want to make a blanket statement for everyone. But I do know myself and if I started smoking I would be in rebellion. With food, I see it as a moderation issue, but with smoking one is too much for me.
Susan said: I think we can all agree here that we don't want to be the health police to one another! Enough has been said already and this hasn't been the most edifying conversation. There has been a lot more heat than light, get it?
First of all Susan with regard to the Health Police AMEN
And I was thinking about finding some conduit over here so I could lower my heat bill.
Well stated. We will be praying for you. When smoking (or anything else) has control over us and not us (that is God in us) over it then of course it becomes a sin. Christ is Lord. He not only can, but will deliver-but you know this. The good news is that (1) God has convicted about quiting/slowing down (2) we all have struggles like this so we can continue to see Him as Lord (3) this causes faith to grow in us (4) and the victory is His, though we benefit from it greatly.
May God bless.
P.S. A friend of mine use to smoke 2 packs a day. He finally quit. He has on his desk his Bible and a cartoon of cigarettes. Everyday he says he chooses life. This was his way or dealing with himself--as you and Tom said this becomes rather personal and thus some methodologies work for some....oh, and he super-glued the cigarrete carton...
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