Donations for the month of September


We have received a total of $0 in donations towards our goal of $175.


Don't want to use PayPal? Go HERE


Search

Member Spotlight
Meta4
Meta4
Canada
Posts: 48
Joined: May 2016
Show All Member Profiles 
Forum Statistics
Forums30
Topics6,683
Posts51,426
Members928
Most Online373
Mar 5th, 2017
Top Posters(All Time)
Pilgrim 13,511
Tom 3,522
chestnutmare 2,920
J_Edwards 2,615
Wes 1,856
John_C 1,769
RJ_ 1,582
MarieP 1,578
gotribe 1,060
Top Posters(30 Days)
Pilgrim 17
Tom 16
Meta4 2
Johan 2
John_C 1
Recent Posts
Same Sex Atraction
by Tom. Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:37 PM
What will it like to live in Heaven
by Pilgrim. Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:32 PM
Bill 89 taking children from Christian homes
by Tom. Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:10 PM
Pay Taxes
by Tom. Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:54 PM
Isaac Watts and the Trinity
by Pilgrim. Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:58 AM
Jury Duty
by ReformedDisciple. Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:07 PM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4
Re: The Covenant of Works [Re: MHeath] #10260
Fri Jan 23, 2004 9:12 AM
Fri Jan 23, 2004 9:12 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 406
Canyon Country, CA
fredman Offline
Addict
fredman  Offline
Addict
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 406
Canyon Country, CA
Quote
what is "NCT?"


As much as I love these boys here at this site, I believe they will not provide you with a fair assessment of NCT.

A good place to research are two websites (they have links to others you can do further research)

In-depth Studies

Sound of Grace

A couple of notable authors who would lean toward NCT thought are DA Carson and Doug Moo. Moo's essay in the book Continuity and Discontinuity: Essay's in a continuing debate, does a good job of highlighting NCTs essential understanding of OT and NT ethics.
Also, two pastors, Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel, have co-authored a book called New Covenant Theology and can be purchased at the sound of grace site. It is a fine introduction to the issues and what NCTers are thinking. They even have a rejoinder to Richard Barcellos book giving a negative critique against NCT.

Fred


"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
Re: The Covenant of Works [Re: MHeath] #10261
Fri Jan 23, 2004 10:56 AM
Fri Jan 23, 2004 10:56 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 285
Philadelphia, PA
carlos Offline
Addict
carlos  Offline
Addict
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 285
Philadelphia, PA
HI Michele,

Quote
what is "NCT?"

Fred has given you the sites that support NCT. He is right that both Carson and Moo have bent in that direction [I believe the same goes for New testament exegete Peter O'Brien]. I like all these authors, especially Carson [and I highly respect Fred, whom I PM frequently], though here I disagree with them. One passages that is debated in this issue is Matthew 5:17-48.

Here is an article by Greg Welty that, IHMO, provides a fair assesment of Carson's commentary on Matthew 5:17-48 (also some critique of Fred Zaspel's NCT). I have not been to the IDS website in a bit, so I don't know if Zaspel or others responded to Welty.

Perhaps this can open up some discussions. Here is the link to Welty's critique: http://www.ccir.ed.ac.uk/~jad/welty/carson.htm

In Christ,

Carlos


"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)
Re: The Covenant of Works [Re: fredman] #10262
Fri Jan 23, 2004 11:51 AM
Fri Jan 23, 2004 11:51 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 281
Michigan, USA
MHeath Offline
Addict
MHeath  Offline
Addict
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 281
Michigan, USA
Pr 26:17 -
He who passes by and meddles in a quarrel not his own Is like one who takes a dog by the ears.



<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

Re: The Covenant of Works [Re: fredman] #10263
Fri Jan 23, 2004 1:15 PM
Fri Jan 23, 2004 1:15 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 175
British Columbia, Canada
Ruth Offline
Addict
Ruth  Offline
Addict
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 175
British Columbia, Canada
Hi Fredman,


It's funny how some people judge one's "fair" assessment of a subject, by whether one agrees with said subject or doesn't, isn't it?

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His Hands,

Ruth

Re: The Covenant of Works [Re: Ruth] #10264
Fri Jan 23, 2004 1:45 PM
Fri Jan 23, 2004 1:45 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 406
Canyon Country, CA
fredman Offline
Addict
fredman  Offline
Addict
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 406
Canyon Country, CA
Quote
It's funny how some people judge one's "fair" assessment of a subject, by whether one agrees with said subject or doesn't, isn't it?


(Fred) Yes it is funny, but generally true, because those who are opposed to a particular subject may not represent it properly. That is why it is much, much better to allow the proponent of a subject speak for himself.
For instance, I wouldn't turn to Charles Ryrie to give me a fair assessment of Covenant Theology, or Tim LaHaye for a fair assessment of Amillennialism. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Fred


"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
Re: The Covenant of Works #10265
Fri Jan 23, 2004 2:06 PM
Fri Jan 23, 2004 2:06 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 285
Philadelphia, PA
carlos Offline
Addict
carlos  Offline
Addict
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 285
Philadelphia, PA
Mark,

For a better understanding of the WCF, especially regarding the issue of the Law of God and the covenant of works, I would point you to A.A Hodge's fine commentary (See chapters 7 and 19).

http://www.rtrc.net/documents/wcf/hodge/wcftoc.htm

In Christ,
Carlos

Re: The Covenant of Works #10266
Sat Jan 24, 2004 5:08 AM
Sat Jan 24, 2004 5:08 AM

A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
A


Adam was not under The same laws delivered at Horeb as the WCF chap XIX : 1 and 2 states (see Deuteronomy 5:2,3)

Until folk realise this , there will always be confusion as seen in Micheles post.

Moses, Paul and Christ Himself, say NOTHING about a so-called moral law. Nor should they, for it is unscriptural heathen philosophy.

Re: The Covenant of Works [Re: carlos] #10267
Sat Jan 24, 2004 5:14 AM
Sat Jan 24, 2004 5:14 AM

A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
A


Thanks Carlos. I do have Hodges book and I am not at all impressed with his comments on WCF XIX:1,2 either.

Re: The Covenant of Works #10268
Sat Jan 24, 2004 10:54 AM
Sat Jan 24, 2004 10:54 AM

A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
A


BookMark,
I should remember this because we had this in our Sunday school class, but I didn't take notes and have a bad memory!
Our pastor gave us the verses that are used to support the idea that there was a Covenant with Adam. (He is a Presbyterian not a Baptist).
Also this was over on the Puritan Board posted by Bryan and answered by a student at the Baptist Seminary in Louisville KY, Ben who is known there as SolaScriptura.

Quote
Covenant Of Works

I've been discussing this with a freind. To me Hosea 6:7 and Genesis 2:16-17 offer all the evidance needed to support such a covenant. However my freind disagrees that it is not enough evidance to place a doctrine this important on. The following is his opinion, and I'm wondering if, since this is still new to me, anyone would be willing to direct me toward some things I may have missed:

"In your own opinion, for my benefit, would you say that the covenant of works is necessary for the remainder of the covenant theology? I am sincere in my doubt that Hosea 6:7 demands any such covenant, and I am equally doubtful that Gen. 2:16,17 constitutes a solemn agreement, much less the details of the solemn agreement. So unless you can give some credible scripture to support it, I will likely not accept it. But that won't mean that I will have to disregard all covenant theology, will it?"

jsut in regards to his question concering if a covenant of works is nesscary to understand the rest of Covenant Theology. To me it seems yes because if there wasn't a covenant of works then Adam was under a covenant of grace and then the verses in Genesis 2 don't make sense. Why would he be said to die if he sinned?

Thanks,

Bryan
SDG


Quote
I would ask him why he doesn't believe that Hosea 6:7 indicates a covenant with Adam.
Even my baptist OT professors - who are NOT covenant theologians! - agree that this points to some type of covenant. So since the text clearly states that Adam broke "the covenant," I would say the burden of proof is on him to explain how there wasn't a covenant to break!
Admittedly, though, if Genesis 2: 17-18 were all we had, I wouldn't argue for a full blown covenant (though in the light of Hosea 6, I will!!!) because Gen 2 could be interpreted simply as a command... and there are lots of times where God gives a command and it isn't the establishment of a covenant.

I would also argue from Rom 5: 12- 21 on the basis that Paul is drawing a comparison with Adam and Christ. Since Christ is clearly the mediator of the New Covenant, then it would seem for the logic of Paul's thought to remain intact then Adam would also have to be the "mediator" of a covenant.

But at the end of the day I really do think the buck stops at Hosea 6:7 and the burden of proof rests on those who would deny the face of the text.

Re: The Covenant of Works #10269
Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:16 PM
Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:16 PM

A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
A


Quote

Adam was not under The same laws delivered at Horeb as the WCF chap XIX : 1 and 2 states (see Deuteronomy 5:2,3)


Ahh Mark I can see where you are getting confused let me show you dear brother where your going astray here.

[color:"FF0000"]And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them. The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day. (Deuteronomy 5:1-3)[/color]

Moses is speaking here of the Covenant of Grace not the Covenant of Works and in particular the particular administration of the Covenant of Grace that was being made with the people of Israel. (see also here Covenant of Grace by John Murray and The Covenant of Works and the Covenant of Grace delivered on Mount Sinai Thomas Boston)

Re: The Covenant of Works #10270
Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:58 PM
Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:58 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,511
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,511
NH, USA
Quote
Moses, Paul and Christ Himself, say NOTHING about a so-called moral law. Nor should they, for it is unscriptural heathen philosophy.


Mark,

Seriously, you should learn to curb your pejorative judgments against such well established doctrines. 95% (my estimation) of all Calvinists have held to an immutable and perpetual "moral law", which God established long before He even created Adam. For if there was no "moral law", then it would be illogical that angels could have rebelled and thrust out of God's presence. For, what would there be to rebel against, if there was no "moral law"? That the angels sinned against God is indisputable. And Scripture says that "sin is the transgression of the law"!

1 John 3:4 (KJV) "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

Further, on what basis did the Fall occur, if there was no "moral law" for Adam to break? And what was the warrant for God condemning Cain when he killed Abel? What would you call what God told Noah in Genesis 9:6 if murder was not sin; the transgression of a "moral law"?

That the recognition and holding fast to the "moral law" of God is incontrovertibly part and parcel of the Christian faith, how is it you can say that it is a "heathen philosophy"? The fact is, the world at large, soundly rejects any such notion that men are accountable to God to keep His "moral law" and/or that they shall be judged on the basis of that "moral law" and consigned to everlasting punishment for its transgression.

Lastly, what was the vicarious atonement all about, if the Lord Christ wasn't punished for the sins of the elect? To deny that there is a universal, perpetual and binding "moral law" of God is to deny the entire Christian faith. I adjure you to reconsider this matter with all earnestness, or at least temper the manner in which you choose to reject it.

In His Grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: The Covenant of Works #10271
Sat Jan 24, 2004 5:21 PM
Sat Jan 24, 2004 5:21 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 285
Philadelphia, PA
carlos Offline
Addict
carlos  Offline
Addict
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 285
Philadelphia, PA
Mark, Mark.. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Quote
...Paul...say NOTHING about a so-called moral law


I beg to differ. Romans 5:12-21:

Quote
12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-- 13for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18Therefore, as one trespass[5] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness[6] leads to justification and life for all men. 19For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


If you disagree, then please explain what is "trespass", "Disobedience, "sin", etc., especially in light of Pilgrim's post. Here is a great discussion from Charles Hodge's Romans commentary on this passage.

Quote
Until the law. The law here mentioned is evidently the law of Moses. The word acri is properly rendered until, and not during the continuance of, a sense which the particle has in some passages. Until the law is immediately explained by the words from Adam to Moses. Sin was in the world, i.e. men were sinners, and were so regarded and treated. Sin is not imputed, that is, it is not laid to one's account, and punished. See 4:8, "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity;" and the familiar equivalent expressions. "His iniquity shall be upon him," Numbers 15:31; and, "He shall bear his iniquity." The word (ellogeitai) here used, occurs nowhere else in any Greek writer, except in Philemon 18. The common word for impute is logizomai. When there is no law, mh ontoV nomou, there not being law. Sin is correlative of law. If there is no law, there can be no sin, as Paul had already taught, 4:15. But if there is no sin without law, there can be no imputation of sin. As, however, sin was imputed, as sin was in the world, as men were sinners, and were so regarded and treated before the law of Moses, it follows that there must be some more comprehensive law in relation to which men were sinners, and in virtue of which they were so regarded and treated. The principle here advanced, and on which the apostle's argument rests is, that the infliction of penal evil implies the violation of law. If men were sinners, and were treated as such before the law of Moses, it is certain that there is some other law, for the violation of which sin was imputed to them.


Mark, here are great lectures on covenant theology by Proffessor/pastor Dr. Ligon Duncan. Please read and consider carefully. We are not inventing human philosophy!

See here: Covenant Theology

in Christ,
Carlos

Re: The Covenant of Works #10272
Sun Jan 25, 2004 5:07 AM
Sun Jan 25, 2004 5:07 AM

A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
A


WCF XIX :1,2 says Adam was under the so-called moral law.
The bible says no such thing.

Paul is not talking about "moral" law. He is talking about THE LAW.

Gods Law is ONE. This Law , in its entirety, has been nailed to The Cross.

Re: The Covenant of Works #10273
Sun Jan 25, 2004 8:19 AM
Sun Jan 25, 2004 8:19 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 710
.
W
William Offline
Addict
William  Offline
Addict
W
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 710
.
The revelation of God's will to Adam, as recorded in the book of Genesis, is not there called a covenant; and some have doubted the propriety of using this term to denote it. If the word, in the Scripture use of it, signified, as it does in human transactions, a bargain made between equals, who are independent of each other, we might well reject the application of it to this subject. But in the sacred Scripture, it is used in a more extended signification. It denotes, 1. An immutable ordinance. Under this sense may be included an irrevocable will or testament. 2. A sure and stable promise. 3. A precept. 4. A mutual agreement. With this latitude of meaning, the word must be considered applicable in the present case; yet there would be no necessity to insist on its use, were it not that the Scriptures have used it in this application. See Hosea vi. 7, which may be more properly rendered than in the common version, "They, like Adam, have transgressed the covenant." So the same Hebrew phrase may be understood in Job xxxi. 33; Ps. lxxxii. 6,7.
As the term covenant is sometimes applied to a free promise, in which no condition is stipulated; it is proper to characterize that which was made with Adam as a covenant of works. It was a law, with a penalty affixed.
J. L. Dagg, D.D.
Quote

How is this "command" a "covenant" ?

Re: The Covenant of Works #10274
Sun Jan 25, 2004 11:17 AM
Sun Jan 25, 2004 11:17 AM

A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
A


Quote
BookMark said:
WCF XIX :1,2 says Adam was under the so-called moral law.
The bible says no such thing.

Paul is not talking about "moral" law. He is talking about THE LAW.

Gods Law is ONE. This Law , in its entirety, has been nailed to The Cross.


Okay Mark so let me get this straight your beef is with the concept that revealed Law of God can be broken down to three distinct categories ie: Moral, Civil, Ceremonial.

So when Paul writes this: "ROM 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" Your saying that Paul means that the gentiles are keeping the entire law, the civil statutes, the ceremonial statutes, and the moral statutes. Mark how can this be, since the gentiles unless exposed to the teaching of the Law by the Jews would have no concept of the ceremonial laws so defined or the civil laws so defined? It is more reasonable to assert that Paul here was talking about the decalogue which is the basis of the "moral laws". And since every man is made in the image of God and that means that God's character would have been imprinted so to speak upon man then so would the moral law too would have been placed into man. This is the only way that the gentiles would even have an idea of right and wrong.

Mark do you not recognize that there is a difference between the civil and ceremonial laws of the theocracy of Israel and the moral or ethical laws?

Pete

Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 22 guests, and 14 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
reformedbygrace, ReformedDisciple, Micki Bowman, Nigel J, wischnotes
928 Registered Users
Shout Box
September
S M T W T F S
1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25 26 27 28 29
30
Today's Birthdays
Sirdude
Popular Topics(Views)
809,252 Gospel truth
Page Time: 0.055s Queries: 15 (0.005s) Memory: 2.9857 MB (Peak: 3.2914 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2018-09-20 07:19:29 UTC