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Re: The Covenant of Works #10275
Sun Jan 25, 2004 11:46 AM
Sun Jan 25, 2004 11:46 AM
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NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

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Quote
Sanctus rightly stated:
And since every man is made in the image of God and that means that God's character would have been imprinted so to speak upon man then so would the moral law too would have been placed into man. This is the only way that the gentiles would even have an idea of right and wrong.

Isn't this the same truth which Paul asserts in showing the necessity of Christ's atoning sacrifice; i.e., that ALL men are guilty of breaking the "moral law" of God? He says that ALL mankind died as consequence of breaking the "law" long before the Jews ever came into existence and longer yet before the Decalogue was given to Moses on Sinai, thus also showing that the Decalogue isn't the origin of the moral law at all, but a iteration of that law which was impressed upon the heart of men from the creation.

Romans 5:12-14 (ASV) "Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:-- for until the law [Ten Commandments - Pilgrim] sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law [moral law - Pilgrim]. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come."


In His Grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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Re: The Covenant of Works #10276
Sun Jan 25, 2004 12:10 PM
Sun Jan 25, 2004 12:10 PM
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Philadelphia, PA
carlos Offline
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Mark,


Will you interact with what Pilgrim, I, Pete,& others, have written to you? You keep writing "The bible says no such thing.." and the like, and continue to ignore the rebutalls.

in Christ,
Carlos


"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)
Re: The Covenant of Works #10277
Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:30 AM
Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:30 AM
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Michigan, USA
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Hey..

Okay, I am coming from waaaaaaay behind here, and this coversation is way above my head lol. But I wonder if it's okay to just ask this question. This is still bothering me, the issue of "the law." It seems as though this thread has been more about whether we are under the law, or not under the law. So I hope I am staying on topic. I am also still trying to deal with the Hebrew roots issue, and the differences between the jew and the gentile.

Okay, I read the last half of the book of acts today. What I notice is that Paul did still observe the law to some extent. It is not clear how far he went though. He talked about "taking a vow" and having his hair cut. He never did speak against the "law." In fact, he said he had done nothing against it, in what he spoke or what he did. Or.. what he did NOT do. Like when he went to Jerusalem to pay alms and worship, or when he did not let any gentile in the temple etc.

Someone told me that the jews are bound to obey the "covenant" from birth, the Torah, and the gentiles are only bound to obey the four things listed in acts. Not commiting fornication, not to eat blood, etc. Sorry I am not listing the particular verses.

I know there is a whole bunch of stuff that is missing here. I am about to re-read the book of Romans and Galatians together so I can maybe get a better idea what Paul meant. But I had come to some idea like Mark, that we are not bound by the "law." And that the law we follow is of liberty.. not to sin, but that that moral law of God is written on our hearts. In our consciences. For the saved and the unsaved alike. As in, the letter of the law kills, but we follow now, as believers, the Spirit of that law.

Anyway, I may take another "break" after this so I can spend a few months digesting all this. Of course.. I may not lol. We'll see.

Michele

Re: The Covenant of Works [Re: MHeath] #10278
Mon Jan 26, 2004 7:48 PM
Mon Jan 26, 2004 7:48 PM
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Okay, never mind my questions, in case anyone was inclined to answer them! hehehe. I have been reading Romans today, and Acts. Half of my issues have been answered and resolved. I think in more reading, the rest will be answered.. we'll see.

Thanks anyway!
Michele

Re: The Covenant of Works [Re: MHeath] #10279
Mon Jan 26, 2004 8:42 PM
Mon Jan 26, 2004 8:42 PM
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Philadelphia, PA
carlos Offline
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Michele,

Read through Timothy also. There are some passages there that speak of law(.i.e "the law is good if one uses it lawfully"; 1 Tim. 1:8-11).

in Christ,
Carlos


"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)
Re: The Covenant of Works [Re: carlos] #10280
Mon Jan 26, 2004 8:57 PM
Mon Jan 26, 2004 8:57 PM
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Okay, just some simple ideas here. Speaking about using the law, lawfully. In Acts, when Paul observes the Jewish customs and law, is he only obeying the law of love? As when he said that we are not walking in love if we eat meat in front of a weaker brother and make him stumble, or when he says that to the jews he is a jew, to the gentiles a gentile so that by being everything to all men he might save some? (Of course I paraphrased there LOL.)

Michele

Re: The Covenant of Works [Re: MHeath] #10281
Mon Jan 26, 2004 9:41 PM
Mon Jan 26, 2004 9:41 PM
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Pilgrim Offline

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Michele,

Don't confuse the "law of love", which in the examples you gave have to do with the "law of liberty", aka: Adiaphora (things indifferent). In those situations, there is no "law" prohibiting the use of foods, etc., as they are all "good". It is one's conscience that prohibits one from partaking of them. And thus, for example, Paul could participate in a Jewish festival as just that, a festival that had no bearing upon his salvation. Circumcision is probably the best example however. For in one case, he allowed one to submit to it for the sake of the Gospel, but in another case, he flatly refused to it. For, in that case, those who demanded circumcision held that salvation was dependent upon it.

What this topic is about is the "MORAL law" of God, those laws which are the expression of God's very nature; i.e., that which determines what is holy and righteous. Mark and other Antinomians deny that Christians are "bound", under obligation to keep them, saying they were specifically Israelic; belonging to the nation of Israel and no one else. They would contend that because we are under "grace", then ALL the moral law is abrogated and no longer applicable to believers.

Of course we disagree. The "key", IMHO, is understanding how Paul, e.g., uses the word "law" and in what context he is using it. For a Christian, the law is not applicable for the obtaining of Justification. Nor is the law necessary to securing Sanctification. But rather the moral law is the RULE and GUIDE to becoming sanctified; to becoming more and more like Christ.

Anyway, perhaps that will give you more food for thought? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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Re: The Covenant of Works [Re: Pilgrim] #10282
Mon Jan 26, 2004 9:59 PM
Mon Jan 26, 2004 9:59 PM
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yes yes yes.. and thank you <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

On the issue of the Jews though, I am pretty well convinced. While I believe that God has still not finished with the nation of Israel, nor with the jews, we are still ONE body. No one is better than another. If we are all saved in the same way, and we are all one body, then sanctification works the same for all. It's the work of God, through the Spirit. Not following Judaism. Though, i will concede that following say.. the dietary laws, a jewish Christian could say that he is walking in love toward his fellow jews who are not saved yet. Does that make sense? Is that what you just said? LOL

You made more clear the part I was confused about concerning your position on which law we are "under." Still thinking though..thanks Pilgrim!

Michele

Re: The Covenant of Works [Re: MHeath] #10283
Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:20 PM
Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:20 PM
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Pilgrim Offline

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Quote
Though, i will concede that following say.. the dietary laws, a jewish Christian could say that he is walking in love toward his fellow jews who are not saved yet. Does that make sense? Is that what you just said? LOL

This may or may not be true. Again, I refer you to the record of Paul's missionary journey found here: Acts 16:1-3, where Timothy was circumcised so as to open opportunities to preach the gospel to the Jews. But in Gal 2:1-5, Paul adamantly refused to have Titus circumcised, also for the sake of the Gospel. Now, the difference to be seen here is that in one case, circumcision was not looked upon as being necessary for salvation, but in the latter case, it was. Thus, the first was done out of the liberty they had in Christ, to either do that or not do that for the sake of conscience. But on the other hand, in Galatia, it was a group of Judaizers who demanded that to be saved, one had to follow the law of the Old Covenant, to be saved. This latter group denied Sola Gratia and Sola Fide and was guilty of preaching/teaching "synergism"; i.e., faith+works=salvation.

The civil and ceremonial laws were abrogated when the nation of Israel was cast off and had served its purpose. But the moral law is perpetual and applies to all men everywhere and is used for various purposes; e.g., to bring conviction of sin to unbelievers and to be a guide which shows in practical terms what holiness and righteousness is, to which believers are called to be before God. (Matt 5:48; 1Pet 1:16).

As to the nation of Israel and the Jews having yet a major part in God's plan of redemption..... well, that's another topic for discussion and one which I of course, clearly disagree. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

See here: Paul's Theology of Israel's Future.


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Re: The Covenant of Works #10284
Tue Jan 27, 2004 7:57 PM
Tue Jan 27, 2004 7:57 PM

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Greetings BookMark:

I looked up "covenant of works" at biblegateway.com and there was no passage of Scripture found. I can only assume the concept is outside Scripture.

I suppose we could open the forum to include the Koran, or the Book of Mormon, or the musings of Buddah for that matter. Perhaps we could have everyone send in their favorite Confucious saying. But, I thought this website was for serious Christian discussion on theology.

My point is this....If it isn't in the 66 books of the Bible, don't bring it to the discussion board - unless you are prepared to have someone start quoting from the "Catechism of the Catholic Church" and claiming it has authority over your Christian life!

Re: The Covenant of Works #10285
Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:04 PM
Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:04 PM
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Quote
I looked up "covenant of works" at biblegateway.com and there was no passage of Scripture found. I can only assume the concept is outside Scripture....I suppose we could open the forum to include the Koran, or the Book of Mormon, or the musings of Buddah for that matter. Perhaps we could have everyone send in their favorite Confucious saying. But, I thought this website was for serious Christian discussion on theology.....[color:"0000FF"]My point is this....If it isn't in the 66 books of the Bible, don't bring it to the discussion board [/color]
Did you type your response on a computer? Are computers in the 66 books of the Bible? Is there a bibical doctrine of typing? Then why type?--bad argument <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/drop.gif" alt="" />

Doctrine is in the Bible. We are to have sound doctrine (1 Tim 1:3-10; 4:6, 13, 16; 5:17; 6:1, 3, etc.). Covenant of Works is a doctrinal principle. Please read the links below to learn more concerning this "biblical doctrine."


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: The Covenant of Works #10286
Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:19 PM
Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:19 PM
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carlos Offline
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Quote
I looked up looked up "covenant of works" at biblegateway.com and there was no passage of Scripture found. I can only assume the concept is outside Scripture.

I suppose we could open the forum to include the Koran, or the Book of Mormon, or the musings of Buddah for that matter. Perhaps we could have everyone send in their favorite Confucious saying. But, I thought this website was for serious Christian discussion on theology.

My point is this....If it isn't in the 66 books of the Bible, don't bring it to the discussion board - unless you are prepared to have someone start quoting from the "Catechism of the Catholic Church" and claiming it has authority over your Christian life!


<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/mad3.gif" alt="" /> What reasoning is THIS??? I just went to biblegateway.com myself and typed up "Trinity". To my surprise, nothing showed up<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I guess I can conclude that the early church fathers & church councils, and the untold number of theologians have made this up too. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bif.gif" alt="" />
As if the best of the reformed theologians were just sitting in their rooms making this stuff from thin air.

If you disagree, then please read the entire thread and join in on the discussion already ongoing.


in Christ,
Carlos

Last edited by carlos; Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:49 PM.

"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)
Re: The Covenant of Works #10287
Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:47 PM
Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:47 PM

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1saved,
The word Trinity isn't in the Bible either, but we're not going to throw that away since the doctrine is plainly taught in the Bible!

Re: The Covenant of Works #10288
Tue Jan 27, 2004 9:08 PM
Tue Jan 27, 2004 9:08 PM
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You will want to read this post and article on "solo scriptura":

Click here: http://www.the-highway.com/forum/showthr...;o=&fpart=1


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Re: The Covenant of Works #10289
Tue Jan 27, 2004 9:43 PM
Tue Jan 27, 2004 9:43 PM
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Virginia
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Quote
My point is this....If it isn't in the 66 books of the Bible, don't bring it to the discussion board - unless you are prepared to have someone start quoting from the "Catechism of the Catholic Church" and claiming it has authority over your Christian life!


Most surprisingly, no one has done that in this discussion, either with the Catholic Church's catechism or any other. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bif.gif" alt="" />


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
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