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#10528 - Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:37 AM Re: The people miscalled Antinomians ? *****  

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acts2027 said:
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The point is how we fulfil such a righteous walk - by law, or by faith? I answer by faith, yoked to Christ, as led by the Spirit.


What makes you think that anyone here, or the Westminster Divines, or Owen, or Edwards, etc., is "fullfilling a righteous walk, by the Law" rather than by faith? What makes you think that you are "yoked to Christ" and we are not? What makes you so sure that we are not "led by the Spirit" and you are? On what basis, as your question implies, must a walk of faith exclude the Law?

On what basis must a walk of faith exclude the law if led by the Spirit? On this basis:-

“But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.”
Galatians 5:14

I have no doubt that you believe you are walking by faith. But add law to grace and it is no more grace. Scripture continually contrasts faith in Christ with the works of the law. The two are never mixed. Add law to faith and it becomes just law.

I am yoked to Christ because I am MARRIED to Christ and dead to my former husband, the law. See Romans 7. If you return to law then you commit adultery, breaking the very law you profess to keep. How foolish.

We WERE yoked to the law, and it was a burden we couldn’t bear. We are now freed from that bondage and are yoked to Christ whose yoke is easy. We walk in the Spirit, and “are not under the law”.

As Romans 6 and 7 makes clear:-

“For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.”
Romans 6:14

“Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”
Romans 7:4-6

Quote

I very much value Philpots writings for their experiential nature, and was drawn to them as a breath of fresh air after years of intellectual dryness and denial of the Spirits essential work, and I still value them for that contribution. For me, there are some parts of his sermons that are simply unsurpassed with respect to insight into experiential religion. However, when I began to see, with the help of others, that there were some other areas that did not line up with scripture, I admitted my error and moved on. May the Lord give you the grace to do the same. Not to ignore or to shun his contribution, but to put it along side others of God's servants who also have been gifted of the Lord.

As I pointed out to you privately, I believe that Dr. Beeke has illucidated nicely the issue of the Reformation and post Reformation teaching on the development of the doctrine of Assurance in his work, "The Quest for Full Assurance", and I would recommend it to you to give some perspective on this issue outside of the Strict Baptist Camp. I also note that Philpots books, as well as Gadsby's, not to mention many others of an experiential nature, including most notably Owens and Calvins and Goodwins are to be found in the Catalogue of Reformation Heritage Books, a ministry of Dr. Beeke's Heritage Netherlands Reformed Church in Grand Rapids, Mi.

No group or denomination, in my view, (including Presbyterians <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) has a corner on the truth of God's word, and, "In a multitude of counselors there is wisdom".


I repeat some of what I said to you in a PM Gerry:

I am pleased to hear you set forth your position in some consistency – that you reject Huntington’s, Philpot’s, Warburton’s, and Gadsby’s teaching over the law as well as mine. I am in good company. All these men knew much of the truth about the workings of the Holy Spirit which is why they are so clear on the truth that “if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law”. Gal. 5:18. Both truths go together Gerry – yet what God has joined together you seek to put asunder.

You seem to have presumed from the fact that I worship at a Gospel Standard SB chapel that I have always done so, or that I have been ‘brought up’ in these doctrines. No Sir – you presume too much. I have only worshipped in this chapel for the last three years, being brought by God among a people who know and love the same truths which He experimentally taught me. I didn’t even know that Huntington or Philpot existed until a good few years after I had come to know the truth regarding deliverance from the law. When I discovered their writings it was with much joy that I found others who knew and wrote the same truths I loved. But I neither received this Gospel from them, nor was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. Gal 1:12

I know of others too, outside the SBs, who believe these things. Some of their writings are on my website. But what of that? If a hundred men believed it, or if only one believed it, what is important is whether God’s word teaches it, whether the Spirit testifies to it, whether it is the truth of God. I believe it is. And I speak as I have been taught.

I live in no cocoon Gerry. I have read many, many writers on these matters. Lloyd Jones, Owen, Trail, Calvin, Luther, Edwards, Hodge, Ryle, etc etc. I am not trapped on some GS Strict Baptist tramline. But by God’s grace I have been shown the flaws in the understanding and exegesis regarding Law and Grace of such men as those listed above, whosoever they may be.

When Paul writes in Romans 6:14 “Sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace” he means what he says. You simply cannot say “that’s just for justification”. It is ONGOING, it is what we are UNDER – not what we look to for justification. It is talking about how sin ceases to have dominion over us. If we remain under law, it dominates. If we are under grace then righteousness dominates. The way people try to dismiss the message of Galatians, or these verses in Romans, by claiming it is all just ‘justification’ is no less than sleight of hand and cunning craftiness. It is confusion.

Read 2 Corinthians 3 again Gerry, and understand.

Your experiences from the past in a dispensational church, probably was real Antinomianism Gerry. All truth is subject to abuse. There are many who take the truth of deliverance from the law, and abuse it by sinning ‘that grace may abound’. That is wrong. But it doesn’t alter the doctrine itself. The word must be mixed with faith in the hearers, and faith is NOT dead – it produces works, it produces righteous conduct. Don’t judge what I preach by your ‘experience’ of others from the past who abuse the truth. I contend for the righteousness of God – that believers should be holy. But I repeat Romans 6:14 “Sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace”. The law made NOTHING perfect Gerry, but the bringing in of a better hope did. Keep your eyes upon Christ by faith, and STOP SQUINTING, with one eye on Christ, the other on Moses…

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For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”
Galatians 2:19-21

#10529 - Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:14 AM Re: Just curious Mark  

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Ian, I believe I understand your points and feelings here quite well.

What is concerning me is that some here talk about Gods Law and a moral law.

1 Timothy 1:7 sums this up very well and is often ignored.

Some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling,DESIRING TO BE TEACHERS OF THE LAW;UNDERSTANDING NEITHER WHAT THEY SAY,NOR WHEREOF THEY AFFIRM.

Thankyou Ian for your input on this thread.Many here are learning about Grace for the first time I would imagine.

#10530 - Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:37 AM Re: Just curious Mark  

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BookMark said:
Ian, I believe I understand your points and feelings here quite well.

What is concerning me is that some here talk about Gods Law and a moral law.

1 Timothy 1:7 sums this up very well and is often ignored.

Some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling,DESIRING TO BE TEACHERS OF THE LAW;UNDERSTANDING NEITHER WHAT THEY SAY,NOR WHEREOF THEY AFFIRM.

Thankyou Ian for your input on this thread.Many here are learning about Grace for the first time I would imagine.


God bless you Mark.

As it says in Romans...

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"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."
Romans 11:6


And in Galatians...

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"But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them." Galatians 3:11-12


And in Philippians...

Quote

"And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:" Philippians 3:9


You are right about 1 Timothy 1:7. I am still waiting for someone to give an answer to the following:-

Quote

"Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust."
1 Timothy 1:7-11


The same question as posed by Gadsby in your article Mark. If the law was not made for a righteous man then how can it be set before him as a rule of life? Better to walk by the rule of faith as a 'new creature', as Paul says:-

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"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God."
Galatians 6:14-16

#10531 - Mon Feb 16, 2004 5:31 AM Re: The people miscalled Antinomians ? [Re: Wes]  

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Wes said:
The moral law law of God FOREVER binds everyone, believers and non-believers alike.

Matthew 5:17
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

Romans 3:31
“Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.”

Wes


Wes,

What makes you think that those who say we are not UNDER law but UNDER grace are in any way destroying the law? They are not. It is not a question of whether the law changes or not – it is immutable. It remains just where it is.

No it is a question of the believer’s POSITION relative to law. Once he was under it, now he is no longer under it, delivered from it, dead to it by the body of Christ – Romans 7.

In London there is a bridge over the River Thames called Tower Bridge. If I took a boat and stood under that bridge I would be under it. If I sailed upstream I would no longer be under it. Have I destroyed the bridge? Of course not.

Likewise with law. As unbelievers we are brought under it, so that it can condemn our sin. It is a schoolmaster unto Christ. But once faith has come we are no longer under the schoolmaster. Read Galatians 3:-

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“Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
Galatians 3:21-29


Faith you see establishes the law. It proves it to be right, but to have been fulfilled in Christ who paid its debt for us on the tree. All the laws demands have been met in Christ. We are now dead to it by the body of Christ, but risen again, being new creations in Christ. The other side of death we are no longer under law but under grace, and grace reigns through righteousness. The law isn’t destroyed, we are just not under it. Now that faith is come, we are no longer under the schoolmaster.

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“For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”
Romans 8:3-4


But does being under grace and not under law lead to sin? No! At it is written:-

Quote

“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?”

“For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.”
Romans 6:1-2, 14-15


How then is the law destroyed?

Well one way is by altering the law. Those who divide it into three sections, moral, ceremonial and judicial (which God never did), and then set aside, abrogate, two sections leaving only the ‘moral’ bit, and then remove the teeth from the law, its curse, and present the remaining hub as some ‘rule of life’ for the believer, are destroying the law.

This is setting asunder what God joined together as one for all time. Law is law, as a whole, with sanctions intact. Put yourself under it and you are a debtor to keep the whole law – not just ten commandments of it…

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Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Galatians 4:21-31


Oh put both eyes upon Christ! Set your gaze entirely upon Him by faith. Walk in the Spirit, and by doing so you won’t fulfil the lusts of the flesh. This is the way to escape the dominion of sin: “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace”.

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound!

#10532 - Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:09 AM Re: The people miscalled Antinomians ?  

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If I agreed with my "elders" I might have been a JW not so long ago btw.<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> There but by the Grace of God go i


Mark,
When have Pilgrim and others here led you astray in the past? Why are you listening to these others who are contradicting the truth and following error?
I fear for you Mark! Pilgrim has been so patient with you for so long. Why don't you trust his teaching now and other solid teachers such as Luther and Martyn Lloyd-Jones? May God open your eyes so you will not be deceived by these "friends" of yours who are leading you astray! I have seen God working in you greatly in the time you have spent here.

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Galatians 4 v.16 Have I then become your enemy by telling you the truth? 17 They make much of you, but for no good purpose. They want to shut you out, that you may make much of them. 18 It is always good to be made much of for a good purpose, and not only when I am present with you, 19 my little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you! 20 I wish I could be present with you now and change my tone, for I am perplexed about you.

#10533 - Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:14 AM Re: The people miscalled Antinomians ?  

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Amen Ian. Thanks for all your informative posts. Such a help to me.

In him,
Carol

#10534 - Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:29 AM Re: The people miscalled Antinomians ?  

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As Luther has been quoted a bit as seemingly agreeing with the idea of the law being a rule of life for the believer, which, alas, he DID NOT hold to, I think it might be advisable if folk were to actually go and buy Luther's Commentary to the Galatians, published by James Clarke and read it for themselves.

Short of that, there is an online edition here:-

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/gal/web/gal-inx.html

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/gal/web/gal2-17.html

From which I quote the following:-

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We conclude with Paul, that we are justified by faith in Christ, without the Law. Once a person has been justified by Christ, he will not be unproductive of good, but as a good tree he will bring forth good fruit. A believer has the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit will not permit a person to remain idle, but will put him to work and stir him up to the love of God, to patient suffering in affliction, to prayer, thanksgiving, to the habit of charity towards all men.

VERSE 19. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

This cheering form of speech is frequently met with in the Scriptures, particularly in the writings of St. Paul, when the Law is set against the Law, and sin is made to oppose sin, and death is arrayed against death, and hell is turned loose against hell, as in the following quotations: "Thou hast led captivity captive," Psalm 68:18. "O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction," Hosea 13:14. "And for sin, condemned sin in the flesh," Romans 8:3.

Here Paul plays the Law against the Law, as if to say: "The Law of Moses condemns me; but I have another law, the law of grace and liberty which condemns the accusing Law of Moses."

On first sight Paul seems to be advancing a strange and ugly heresy. He says, "I am dead to the law, that I might live unto God." The false apostles said the very opposite. They said, "If you do not live to the law, you are dead unto God."

The doctrine of our opponents is similar to that of the false apostles in Paul's day. Our opponents teach, "If you want to live unto God, you must live after the Law, for it is written, Do this and thou shalt live." Paul, on the other hand, teaches, "We cannot live unto God unless we are dead unto the Law." If we are dead unto the Law, the Law can have no power over us.

Paul does not only refer to the Ceremonial Law, but to the whole Law. We are not to think that the Law is wiped out. It stays. It continues to operate in the wicked. But a Christian is dead to the Law. For example, Christ by His resurrection became free from the grave, and yet the grave remains. Peter was delivered from prison, yet the prison remains. The Law is abolished as far as I am concerned, when it has driven me into the arms of Christ. Yet the Law continues to exist and to function. But it no longer exists for me.

"I have nothing to do with the Law," cries Paul. He could not have uttered anything more devastating to the prestige of the Law. He declares that he does not care for the Law, that he does not intend ever to be justified by the Law.

To be dead to the Law means to be free of the Law. What right, then, has the Law to accuse me, or to hold anything against me? When you see a person squirming in the clutches of the Law, say to him: "Brother, get things straight. You let the Law talk to your conscience. Make it talk to your flesh. Wake up, and believe in Jesus Christ, the Conqueror of Law and sin. Faith in Christ will lift you high above the Law into the heaven of grace. Though Law and sin remain, they no longer concern you, because you are dead to the Law and dead to sin."

Blessed is the person who knows how to use this truth in times of distress. He can talk. He can say: "Mr. Law, go ahead and accuse me as much as you like. I know I have committed many sins, and I continue to sin daily. But that does not bother me. You have got to shout louder, Mr. Law. I am deaf, you know. Talk as much as you like, I am dead to you. If you want to talk to me about my sins, go and talk to my flesh. Belabor that, but don't talk to my conscience. My conscience is a lady and a queen, and has nothing to do with the likes of you, because my conscience lives to Christ under another law, a new and better law, the law of grace."

We have two propositions: To live unto the Law, is to die unto God. To die unto the Law, is to live unto God. These two propositions go against reason. No law-worker can ever understand them. But see to it that you understand them. The Law can never justify and save a sinner. The Law can only accuse, terrify, and kill him. Therefore to live unto the Law is to die unto God. Vice versa, to die unto the Law is to live unto God. If you want to live unto God, bury the Law, and find life through faith in Christ Jesus.

We have enough arguments right here to conclude that justification is by faith alone. How can the Law effect our justification, when Paul so plainly states that we must be dead to the Law if we want to live unto God? If we are dead to the Law and the Law is dead to us, how can it possibly contribute anything to our justification? There is nothing left for us but to be justified by faith alone.

This nineteenth verse is loaded with consolation. It fortifies a person against every danger. It allows you to argue like this:

"I confess I have sinned."
"Then God will punish you."
"No, He will not do that."
"Why not? Does not the Law say so?"
"I have nothing to do with the Law."
"How so?"
"I have another law, the law of liberty."
"What do you mean--'liberty'?"
"The liberty of Christ, for Christ has made me free from the Law that held me down. That Law is now in prison itself, held captive by grace and liberty."

By faith in Christ a person may gain such sure and sound comfort, that he need not fear the devil, sin, death, or any evil. "Sir Devil," he may say, "I am not afraid of you. I have a Friend whose name is Jesus Christ, in whom I believe. He has abolished the Law, condemned sin, vanquished death, and destroyed hell for me. He is bigger than you, Satan. He has licked you, and holds you down. You cannot hurt me." This is the faith that overcomes the devil.

Paul manhandles the Law. He treats the Law as if it were a thief and a robber He treats the Law as contemptible to the conscience, in order that those who believe in Christ may take courage to defy the Law, and say: "Mr. Law, I am a sinner. What are you going to do about it?"

Or take death. Christ is risen from death. Why should we now fear the grave? Against my death I set another death, or rather life, my life in Christ.

Oh, the sweet names of Jesus! He is called my law against the Law, my sin against sin, my death against death. Translated, it means that He is my righteousness, my life, my everlasting salvation. For this reason was He made the law of the Law, the sin of sin, the death of death, that He might redeem me from the curse of the Law. He permitted the Law to accuse Him, sin to condemn Him, and death to take Him, to abolish the Law, to condemn sin, and to destroy death for me.

This peculiar form of speech sounds much sweeter than if Paul had said: "I through liberty am dead to the law." By putting it in this way, "I through the law am dead to the law," he opposes one law with another law, and has them fight it out.

In this masterly fashion Paul draws our attention away from the Law, sin, death, and every evil, and centers it upon Christ.

VERSE 20. I am crucified with Christ.

Christ is Lord over the Law, because He was crucified unto the Law. I also am lord over the Law, because by faith I am crucified with Christ.

Paul does not here speak of crucifying the flesh, but he speaks of that higher crucifying wherein sin, devil, and death are crucified in Christ and in me. By my faith in Christ I am crucified with Christ. Hence these evils are crucified and dead unto me.

VERSE 20. Nevertheless I live.

"I do not mean to create the impression as though I did not live before this. But in reality I first live now, now that I have been delivered from the Law, from sin, and death. Being crucified with Christ and dead unto the Law, I may now rise unto a new and better life."

We must pay close attention to Paul's way of speaking. He says that we are crucified and dead unto the Law. The fact is, the Law is crucified and dead unto us. Paul purposely speaks that way in order to increase the portion of our comfort.

VERSE 20. Yet not I.

Paul explains what constitutes true Christian righteousness. True Christian righteousness is the righteousness of Christ who lives in us. We must look away from our own person. Christ and my conscience must become one, so that I can see nothing else but Christ crucified and raised from the dead for me. If I keep on looking at myself, I am gone.

If we lose sight of Christ and begin to consider our past, we simply go to pieces. We must turn our eyes to the brazen serpent, Christ crucified, and believe with all our heart that He is our righteousness and our life. For Christ, on whom our eyes are fixed, in whom we live, who lives in us, is Lord over Law, sin, death, and all evil.

VERSE 20. But Christ liveth in me.

"Thus I live," the Apostle starts out. But presently he corrects himself, saying, "Yet not I, but Christ liveth in me." He is the form of my perfection. He embellishes my faith.

Since Christ is now living in me, He abolishes the Law, condemns sin, and destroys death in me. These foes vanish in His presence. Christ abiding in me drives out every evil. This union with Christ delivers me from the demands of the Law, and separates me from my sinful self. As long as I abide in Christ, nothing can hurt me.

Christ domiciling in me, the old Adam has to stay outside and remain subject to the Law. Think what grace, righteousness, life, peace, and salvation there is in me, thanks to that inseparable conjunction between Christ and me through faith!

Paul has a peculiar style, a celestial way of speaking. "I live," he says, "I live not; I am dead, I am not dead; I am a sinner, I am not a sinner; I have the Law, I have no Law." When we look at ourselves we find plenty of sin. But when we look at Christ, we have no sin. Whenever we separate the person of Christ from our own person, we live under the Law and not in Christ; we are condemned by the Law, dead before God.

Faith connects you so intimately with Christ, that He and you become as it were one person. As such you may boldly say: "I am now one with Christ. Therefore Christ's righteousness, victory, and life are mine." On the other hand, Christ may say: "I am that big sinner. His sins and his death are mine, because he is joined to me, and I to him."

Whenever remission of sins is freely proclaimed, people misinterpret it according to Romans 3:8, "Let us do evil, that good may come." As soon as people hear that we are not justified by the Law, they reason maliciously: "Why, then let us reject the Law. If grace abounds, where sin abounds, let us abound in sin, that grace may all the more abound." People who reason thus are reckless. They make sport of the Scriptures and slander the sayings of the Holy Ghost.

However, there are others who are not malicious, only weak, who may take offense when told that Law and good works are unnecessary for salvation. These must be instructed as to why good works do not justify, and from what motives good works must be done. Good works are not the cause, but the fruit of righteousness. When we have become righteous, then first are we able and willing to do good. The tree makes the apple; the apple does not make the tree.


And so on, and so forth. Go read Luther in full.

I am generally reluctant to quote author's like this, as it is very clear from both my quote here, and quotes that others have made above, that 'selective' quoting can be done to prove almost any position. However if the honest reader reads Luther in full he will see that he preaches just as the Apostle Paul does - that we are not under law but under grace.

#10535 - Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:35 AM Re: Just curious Mark  

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Some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling,DESIRING TO BE TEACHERS OF THE LAW;UNDERSTANDING NEITHER WHAT THEY SAY,NOR WHEREOF THEY AFFIRM.

Thankyou Ian for your input on this thread.Many here are learning about Grace for the first time I would imagine.


Mark you make me very sad by these comments of yours. I am praying for you.


Quote
This is discovered by a contemplation of the law, for by the law is the knowledge of sin (Rom. 3:20). Where there is no enforcing and expounding of the holy law of God there can be no true, deep, saving knowledge of sin; as the apostle Paul so plainly affirms, I had not known sin, but by the law(Rom. 7:7). The exceeding sinfulness of sin (Rom. 7:13) is only exposed when the Spirit turns the light of God's law upon our conscience and heart. But this is preeminently an age of lawlessness, and that in every respect. And it cannot be otherwise: where the law of God is flouted, where thousands of preachers are declaring that the law has no place in this dispensation of grace, we cannot expect people to have much respect for human law. God has caused the people to reap that which they have sown: having sown the wind, they are now reaping the whirlwind. Bolshevism and anarchy are the inevitable rebound from having slighted and rejected the Ten Commandments!

Practical godliness consists in a conformity of heart and life to the law of God, and in a sincere compliance with the gospel of Christ. But it is only as we rightly understand both the law and the gospel that we can discern wherein a conformity to the one and a compliance with the other really consists. Now the requirements of the law are summed up in that word, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might (Deut. 6:5; cf. Matt. 22:37). Observe carefully the three things here specified: first, the duty required, namely, love to God. Second, the ground or reason for this, namely, because He is the Lord our God. Third, the measure or extent of this duty, namely, to love Him with all the heart. Nothing other than this, nothing less than this, will ever meet the righteous claims of God upon us.--Arthur Pink from the Highway article Chapter 1 posted by Wesley in Repentance thread

http://www.the-highway.com/repenttoc_Pink.html

#10536 - Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:49 AM Re: Just curious Mark  

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Susan said:
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Some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling,DESIRING TO BE TEACHERS OF THE LAW;UNDERSTANDING NEITHER WHAT THEY SAY,NOR WHEREOF THEY AFFIRM.

Thankyou Ian for your input on this thread.Many here are learning about Grace for the first time I would imagine.


Mark you make me very sad by these comments of yours. I am praying for you.


Susan,

If you are concerned to guide Mark into the truth as you see it, then why not help him out in the way in which he requested by addressing each of the points that Gadsby raises in the article which Mark printed at the start of this thread?

And if that seems like too much 'work' to you (and I grant you, it could take a while), then why not start off just by explaining 1 Timothy 1:9 as we have both requested:

"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient..."

How then is it a rule of life for the believer? It wasn't made for him was it? It isn't 'put on him' or 'laid on him' as a yoke, because he has Christ's yoke, and he isn't 'under' it, because he is 'under' grace.

(BTW it would be nice to have someone's own exegesis rather than just running off to more Geneva notes, MLJ, Luther etc. As I have shown we can quote Luther until the cows come home and get nowhere...)

Many thanks,
In Grace,
Ian

#10537 - Mon Feb 16, 2004 12:31 PM Re: The people miscalled Antinomians ?  
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Mr. Potts,

The Christian community as a whole has rejected antinomianism over the years for several reasons. It has regarded the view as damaging to the unity of the Bible, which demands that one part of the divine revelation must not contradict another. Even more important, it has argued that antinomians misunderstood the nature of justification by faith, which, though granted apart from the works of the law, is not sanctification. In general, orthodoxy teaches that the moral principles of the law are still valid, not as objective strivings but as fruits of the Holy Spirit at work in the life of the believer. This disposes of the objection that since the law is too demanding to be kept, it can be completely thrust aside as irrelevant to the individual living under grace.

Your view of grace suggests no usefulness for the law in the life of the believer. In fact you go out of your way to make your antinomian views clear by using terms like, “the law is dead,” “to abolish the law,” and “the law is crucified and dead to us.” However as I have pointed out in my previous replies to you and Mark faith doesn’t make the law void, rather it establishes it. The law is summarized by loving God and your neighbor. May I remind you that God gave the law to His covenant people who He already had been delivered out of bondage. The law reveals the character of God and His will for His people. It is not nor ever has been a means of justification. What seems to be missing in your theology is a clear definition of sanctification. When the Lord tells us to live holy lives what is He asking of us?

As far as your Antinomian views are concerned the Bible condemns it. The apostles condemn it. Jesus Christ condemns it. Antinomianism is a heresy that must be rejected. We are saved by grace through faith alone and we are saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit in order that we may keep God's moral law. And keeping the moral law is the sure evidence that a Christian is justified by grace through faith alone. May God help us not to believe in antinomianism, but to believe in the true doctrine of the Holy Scriptures. Amen.


Wes


When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
#10538 - Mon Feb 16, 2004 12:38 PM Re: Just curious Mark  
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Quote
BookMark said:
Ian, I believe I understand your points and feelings here quite well.

What is concerning me is that some here talk about Gods Law and a moral law.

1 Timothy 1:7 sums this up very well and is often ignored.

Some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling,DESIRING TO BE TEACHERS OF THE LAW;UNDERSTANDING NEITHER WHAT THEY SAY,NOR WHEREOF THEY AFFIRM.

Thankyou Ian for your input on this thread.Many here are learning about Grace for the first time I would imagine.

Mark,

Are you learning about Grace here for the first time? In your opinion, has salvation by grace alone been missing here on The-Highway until Ian Potts happened along?


Wes


When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
#10539 - Mon Feb 16, 2004 12:43 PM Re: Just curious Mark  
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Mr. Potts,

I suppose I should actually thank you for pressing this issue, i.e., answering Gadsby's erroneous statements. You want an exegesis of 1Tim 1:9 since both you and he and all Antinomians love to use it as evidence for your position. But in fact, it goes to show exactly what I have been saying all along. You are confusing the Scriptural teaching concerning "justification" with "sanctification". It is YOU who cannot rightly divide the Word of Truth and fail to see the distinction between Law and Gospel as the vast majority of the Church has for centuries.

Quote
And if that seems like too much 'work' to you (and I grant you, it could take a while), then why not start off just by explaining 1 Timothy 1:9 as we have both requested:

"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient..."

'The idea that Paul here teaches that "the justified Christian" has "nothing to do with the law" is burdened by the following objections:
  • It is totally foreign to the context in which the apostle (barring the salutation which pertains to the entire letter) as yet has said nothing about justified Christians.
  • Here in verse 9 he is speaking entirely in general about "a (notice a, not the) righteous person; and he is saying that for such a righteous person law is not laid down.
  • A word is often explained by its antonyms. Here "a righteous person" stand over against persons who are "lawless, insubordinate, impious, sinful, unholy, profane, murderers of fathers, murderers of mothers," etc., all of which terms have to do with sins in the moral-spiritual realm, sins of attitude and conduct, sins against the moral law of the Ten Commandments. Hence, it certainly seems very probably that we are here in the moral, not in the forensic realm.

Paul is addressing the false teachers in Ephesus who were more focused upon finding their ancestral heritage than being found sinners before God; being convicted of their sin by the law. This can be clearly seen from verse 7 and also 1Tim 6:2:, 20; 2Tim 3:2 and Titus 1:10; 3:5. These men had not been humbled by the law but were puffed up, haughty boastful, proud, arrogant, etc. Thus Paul contrasts himself with them in his self-appellation in verse 15. These men also are like those whom Jesus rebuked when He said,

Quote
Mark 2:17 (KJV) "When Jesus heard [it], he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."


Thus, this passage deals with sinners who need to be convicted under the law, repent and believe on Christ unto justification. It has nothing to do with a Christian's relationship to the law for sanctification.

Quote
2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV) "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."


In His Grace,


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#10540 - Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:50 PM Re: The people miscalled Antinomians ? [Re: Wes]  
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Thanks Wes,


What a great post! We must continue to point out to Mark, and Carol, that Mr. Potts teaching goes against that of the historic church teaching and if they want to learn the truth they should stick to "old ways".

In His Hands,

Ruth


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#10541 - Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:16 PM Re: The people miscalled Antinomians ? [Re: Ruth]  
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Ruth,

As John writes: "I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning." (I John 2:7)

As we consider the two-fold work of the Holy Spirit I love the way Thomas Hastings put it in his song, Rock of Ages, Cleft for Me.

  • Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
    Let me hide myself in Thee;
    Let the water and the blood,
    From Thy wounded side which flowed,
    Be of sin the double cure,
    Save from guilt and make me pure.

    Not the labors of my hands
    Can fulfill the laws demands;
    Could my zeal no languor know,
    Could my tears forever flow,
    All for sin could not atone;
    Thou must save, and Thou alone.

    Nothing in my hand I bring,
    Simply to Thy cross I cling;
    Naked, come to Thee for dress;
    Helpless, look to Thee for grace;
    Foul, I to the fountain fly;
    Wash me, Savior, or I die.

    While I draw this fleeting breath,
    When my eyelids close in death,
    When I rise to worlds unknown,
    See Thee on Thy judgment throne,
    Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
    Let me hide myself in Thee.



Wes


When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
#10542 - Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:27 PM Re: The people miscalled Antinomians ? [Re: Wes]  
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Wes

This conversation reminds me of another conversation I had with an Antinominian. I gave him 1John 2:3 "And by this we know that we know Him, if we keep his commandments."
I can't remember his response, but it was evident that he didn't believe this verse had anything to do with the matter.

Tom

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