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Are those who die young always part of the elect? #12417
Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:10 PM
Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:10 PM
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MarieP Offline OP
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I've heard people say that this is true, but I don't see enough Biblical proof for it. What do you all think?


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Re: Are those who die young always part of the elect? [Re: MarieP] #12418
Thu Mar 11, 2004 8:06 PM
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Pilgrim Offline

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Are those who die young always part of the elect?

Why would they be? Or perhaps one should ask, "What would qualify anybody to be part of the elect? What would there be in any fallen human being which would commend them or even be worthy of God's consideration?" <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Ponder.gif" alt="" />

I believe in "UNconditional Election"! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace?


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Re: Are those who die young always part of the elect? [Re: MarieP] #12419
Thu Mar 11, 2004 8:09 PM
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CovenantInBlood Offline
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I don't see any biblical support for that idea. SOME certainly are elect, but there is no idication that ALL are.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Re: Are those who die young always part of the elect? [Re: Pilgrim] #12420
Thu Mar 11, 2004 8:16 PM
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MarieP Offline OP
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I'm in complete agreement with you. I was making sure I wan't missing anything there. Like I said, I don't see enough Biblical proof to say all infants are elect. To say that all infants are elect is to base our theology on man's reasoning rather than on God's revelation. It's like they're saying God would be "unfair" to send children to hell.


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Re: Are those who die young always part of the elect? [Re: MarieP] #12421
Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:10 PM
Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:10 PM
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Wes Offline
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It's like they're saying God would be "unfair" to send children to hell.

Humanly speaking little babies appear so helpless and inocent but "there is none righteous, no, not one." (Rom. 3:10) "There is none who does good." (Psalm 14:3) "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Rom. 3:23)


Wes


When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
Re: Are those who die young always part of the ele [Re: Wes] #12422
Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:58 AM
Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:58 AM
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Also, the following verses talk about how we are sinful from birth.

"The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies." (Psalm 58:3)

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,And in sin my mother conceived me." (Ps. 51:5)

It just shows how utterly sinful man is. Even in what many consider his most pure and innocent state, his nature is already fully corrupted by sin. I agree with the WCF that elect infants will go to heaven, but not all. For those who believe that all children who die before a certain age go to heaven, I think that if they followed the implications of their beliefs to the logical end, they may arrive at some strange ideas.

John


John

Re: Are those who die young always part of the ele [Re: john] #12423
Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:40 AM
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King David seemed very confident that he would see his infant son in Heaven (2Sam 12:23).

However, I believe the best course of action for a Christian who loses a child is simply to lay them in the hands of a loving and righteous God, who does all things well, and say, "Thy will be done."

Steve


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Re: Are those who die young always part of the ele [Re: grace2U] #12424
Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:20 AM
Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:20 AM
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Pilgrim Offline

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grace2U said:
King David seemed very confident that he would see his infant son in Heaven (2Sam 12:23).

I'll grant you that this is probably the most popular way that this text has been interpreted. But it isn't necessarily the only possible one. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/flee.gif" alt="" /> It is just as feasible that the text is saying, that the child is dead and cannot return to life but he (David) will one day die and thus join him, i.e., he too will be put into the grave.

Regardless of which interpretation one chooses, what the text does not teach is the universal salvation of infants who die in infancy. Nor is there any warrant to make David the paradigm of all believers and his dead son as representative of every believer's child. Such interpretations are nothing more than "eisogesis"; a reading into the text of one's preconceived ideas.

In His Grace,


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Re: Are those who die young always part of the ele [Re: Pilgrim] #12425
Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:42 AM
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MHeath Offline
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Well, I agree with Spurgeon in the matter.

"I rejoice to know that the souls of all infants, as soon as they die, speed their way to Paradise. Think what a multitude there is of them!"

Even an "elect" infant, or fetus that has been torn apart in their mother's womb has not had the opportunity to be preached the gospel. They have not had any time to understand. Who is anyone to say that every infant that has died, for whatever reason, has not been elected by God? No one can even say that only elect infants go to heaven. No one has ever seen evidence of such a thing.

Yes we are born in sin.. I am not even saying we aren't, but in the same way that you say that somehow, mysteriously, an "elect" infant goes to heaven.. no one can say that every baby born and unborn that dies is not elect.

God obviously, since He is sovereign, is in control of who lives, who dies, and when.. and who is elect.

(I edited this a bit.. to change some wording and add some stuff.)
Michele

Last edited by MHeath; Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:48 AM.
Re: Are those who die young always part of the ele [Re: MHeath] #12426
Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:08 AM
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Even an "elect" infant, or fetus that has been torn apart in their mother's womb has not had the opportunity to be preached the gospel. They have not had any time to understand.

So, if I understand your reasoning here, it would be "unfair" on God's part to condemn a foetus to hell because there was no "chance" to hear the gospel and if there had been, this person might have made a decision for Christ and been saved? scratch1 Along the same line of thinking, are you saying that if a person hasn't had the time to understand, then it would be "unfair" on God's part to send them to hell?

Of course, you probably knew I was going to have to question these things, eh? grin Where in the Scripture does it say that everyone/anyone is owed an "opportunity" to hear the gospel and make a decision to believe on Christ? If this were true, then it must also be true that all who have never heard the gospel are saved? or perhaps Billy Graham is right and there will be a "second chance" after death for such as have not heard the gospel in this life? Same could be posited for the "understanding" qualification as well.

But what I read in Scripture is that ALL are conceived in sin, ALL are born spiritually dead, ALL have the guilt of Adam's transgression imputed to them, ALL our under the wrath of God and condemnation, ALL are void of any goodness, etc. And I also read that unless God in His mercy regenerates a person, there is no hope for them nor any justification to believe that they can or will be saved. So again, I ask you, what is there in an infant that would negate the corruption of nature, guilt and sentence of condemnation that would commend them to God? Can you point to even one single verse that would perhaps even hint that all infants are elect?

Quote
No one can even say that only elect infants go to heaven. No one has ever seen evidence of such a thing.

And how would one "see evidence"? Have anyone seen evidence that anyone has gone to heaven? If an infant is elect, then no evidence is needed to say that they have gone to heaven, is there? Isn't God's infallible Word evidence enough? God's promise of salvation isn't restricted to one group of the elect and not another. Elect is elect . . .!

Quote
but in the same way that you say that somehow, mysteriously, an "elect" infant goes to heaven.. no one can say that every baby born and unborn that dies is not elect.

I think you have me confused with someone else? I have never said anything like that, i.e., "mysteriously, an 'elect' infant goes to heaven". I certainly believe that elect infants go to heaven by virtue of not only their election but that their sins have been atoned for by Christ and that they are "mysteriously" united to Him by faith. As to the second part of your statement, I would refer you back to the paragraph above concerning the state of ALL of the human race at conception. What we can say is ALL are by nature "children of wrath". We can also say that a "remnant" of mankind is saved by grace. And we can say that the elect are those who believe upon Christ. Anything more is basicly wishful thinking; a hope that infants are included. And even this hope must be undeniably restricted to the infants of believers. Should God save any others, it is by grace. But whether He does has not been revealed in Scripture.


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Re: Are those who die young always part of the ele [Re: Pilgrim] #12427
Fri Mar 12, 2004 12:31 PM
Fri Mar 12, 2004 12:31 PM
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Hi there <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, maybe you could teach me how to do the "quote" thing? I would much appreciate that.. sorry that is off topic!

I was not referring to you Pilgrim when I said 'you.' LOL.. just "you" in general.. as in those who hold this position. That's all I meant. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I also didn't say anything about anyone being "owed" a chance at salvation. No one is owed a thing by almighty God. But He does tell us that in order for one to be saved, there must be repentance and belief. Faith. No infant has ever had that. Yes, ALL are born with a sinful nature. Even elect infants. Someone on this board did say that somehow, elect infants go to heaven. Everyone here agrees at least that much.. that elect infants go.

What I am saying is that I do NOT believe that God overlooks those who may not have had the chance to hear the gospel. I am saying that I believe that God knew those babies would die. In whatever way they died. They were going to die and that was that. The killers are responsible, but God is sovereign. He knew there would be no chance whatsoever for that infant to know Him, to be preached the gospel, to repent and believe.

Now, you all say that somehow God's election covers those elected infants who were also born in sin. I am saying, that I believe there is no reason to think that God did not elect every infant/fetus that ever came into existence. There is no proof, and you say so yourself. But I do say that Jesus Himself was very fond of the little children. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I cannot imagine that God, in His infinite mercy would send an infant to the fires of hell. He is merciful and loving. Enough to die for His people. I don't see any thing wrong with believing that He included all those babies.

I totally believe that all these children that die such a torturous death at the hands of horrible people.. that they feel the pain.. and are recieved into the comforting arms of a loving heavenly Father. And I believe that to be the case for any infant.

Michele

Re: Are those who die young always part of the ele [Re: MHeath] #12428
Fri Mar 12, 2004 12:59 PM
Fri Mar 12, 2004 12:59 PM

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If every infant is elected, why isn't every human saved?
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I totally believe that all these children that die such a torturous death at the hands of horrible people.. that they feel the pain.. and are recieved into the comforting arms of a loving heavenly Father. And I believe that to be the case for any infant.
Scripture please?

Re: Are those who die young always part of the ele #12429
Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:18 PM
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Pilgrim said, "Anything more is basicly wishful thinking; a hope that infants are included. And even this hope must be undeniably restricted to the infants of believers. Should God save any others, it is by grace. But whether He does has not been revealed in Scripture."

I also agreed in my post that this is not proven in scripture. Of that no one denies.

Why isn't every human saved? Well maybe they would be if every single person who ever lived.... died in the womb or in infancy. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

Michele

Re: Are those who die young always part of the ele [Re: Pilgrim] #12430
Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:42 PM
Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:42 PM

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Quote
What we can say is ALL are by nature "children of wrath". We can also say that a "remnant" of mankind is saved by grace. And we can say that the elect are those who believe upon Christ. Anything more is basicly wishful thinking; a hope that infants are included. And even this hope must be undeniably restricted to the infants of believers. Should God save any others, it is by grace. But whether He does has not been revealed in Scripture.

I agree that we cannot know for sure what happens to babies when they die, but I would take the hopeful view that David's baby went to heaven and that this was the comfort David was given in his sorrow. That doesn't necessarily mean that every baby of David's would necessarily go to heaven because they were his children. There is strong evidence that neither Absolom nor Amnon were elect.
Why should this hope be limited to the children of believers?
God saves His elect from non-Christian families every day, doesn't He? And wouldn't it be all of grace no matter who it is that He elects?

Re: Are those who die young always part of the ele #12431
Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:23 PM
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Susan said:

"There is strong evidence that neither Absolom nor Amnon were elect."

I agree Susan <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.. I guess my point is that they were not babies when they died..

Michele

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