The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum The Sacraments

Your thoughts were similar to mine as I was reading the thread. I have never seen Biblical support for the sacraments being administered only by ordained men. What I see from reading the Scriptures about them is that they need to be administered in a certain way, but the people to administer them is not as clearly stated as seems to be assumed.

Kalled,

In the thinking of the Reformers and Puritans, it was evidently obvious to them that when the Apostles appointed Elders in the Churches, who were to both "rule" and "preach the Word" (Titus 1:5; 1Tim 5:17), and who we see as existing even at the time of Paul's missionary journeys (cf. Acts 20:17), that they would also have administered the sacraments to their flocks. It would seem strange to me, that there would be these Elders whose responsibility was to preach the Word, one of the means of grace, and that laymen would administer the sacraments which are conjoined with the preaching of the Word.

Except for the Anabaptists, all the Reformed churches which came out of the Protestant Reformation held to this practice. And there are many books which give lengthy defenses of it, e.g., The Scriptural Doctrine of the Church by Douglas Bannerman and The Church of Christ by James Bannerman.

You aren't going to find a direct command in Scripture for the practice, but rather it can be rightly adduced from the nature of the office of Elder (Presbyter/Episcopos).

In His Grace,

I'll have to look for and get my hands on copies of those books. I don't disagree with the sacraments only being administered by ordained ministers. It keeps the sacraments in the hands of God-fearing men. And I would never administer the Lord's Supper to myself by myself. That just sounds dumb to me.

At the same time, though, I just don't see enough support for it being admistered to a congregation only by the ordained clergy of that body to say that any other way is just plain wrong.

IF I can find a short section and/or summary in either one of those books; one is very large and the other is 2 volumes! I'll scan it in and either post it in a reply or provide it as an attachment, D.v. Please give me a little time to see if I can find something for you.

In His Grace,

That will be much appreciated. Thank you very much.

Yankee

Now you have done it, I can't get that song out of my head.

Tom

Hi Yankee,

Paul was referring to the sacraments (or at least to the Lord's Supper) in 1 Cor. 11:2, but I would suggest that he was referring to numerous other things as well. Anything that has been ordained by this or that Scripture may properly be called an ordinance. That would include the practice of decorum in dress for the worship service, which was the immediate concern in vv. 2-16.

However, the Lord's Supper and Baptism have a more peculiar role than do other ordinances, such as women wearing headcoverings. First, they are instituted by Christ; second, they convey gospel information as representations or signs; third, they are ordained to continue until the return of Christ; and finally, when the faithful participate in them, there is an actual grace that is present in the sacrament.

The term itself, as I understand, arises from an oath in the Roman army. Thus the Latin sacramentum. It has been carried into English as "sacrament."


In most communions, yes. But the key is the term "commission" or as most would say "ordain" (thus even the commissioning of preachers is an ordinance, isn't it?). When one is called by God, he ought also to be commissioned or ordained by the church. See Acts 13:1-5 and 14:23.


Not by men as men, but by the church which is made up of men. I'm not exactly sure why John 4:2 would enter into it, since the disciples who baptized clearly had a commission from Christ.

Richard in Texas

Wes

I am not sure if they would be a church or not but I do not believe there would not be any difference spiritually speaking because of who administers them.
“The Lords supper & Baptism”

Also it seems that more and more churches are becoming apostate especially in NY. I keep hearing 40 minute sermons forgiving the brethren, Church membership, Tithing but not a whole lot of Gospel or the preaching of Christ which results in good works [sheep food]. So there may be a time for some of us to gather in homes or where ever we can. Now if we have no ordained minister to distribute the elements will that make us anymore unsanctified? I don't believe so but that can change.

Thanks Bill

Thanks Richard and welcome to the highway.
To the above quote I would have to ask the question are not all true preachers of the Gospel called by Christ?

Short answer, No!

There are those whom Christ, by His Spirit, set apart in the Church and to whom were/are given gifts for the edification of the saints. There is a hierarchal structure that makes up the Church (cf. Eph 2:19-22) The offices of the Church are those of Elder and Deacon, which have specific qualifications that need to be met by those who would serve in them. (cf. Acts 20:28; 1Tim 3:1-10; Titus 1:5-9)

In His Grace,

Yes, in a sense. Being called by Christ is necessary, but not sufficient. In order for a call to be to the office of the word and sacraments there must be a confluence of three testimonies, IMO.

First, there must be a testimony of a good conscience. The person must believe himself both called and qualified for the office. He must examine himself regarding his outward testimony to the gospel in conduct as well as word. His life should be an ornament to the gospel. Further, he must be willing to spend the time, effort, and resources necessary to an educated ministry (this may or may not involve seminary education).

Second, there must be an ordaining body. In the tradition from which I come, we call this body a regional presbytery. But different communions handle this in different ways. Congregational churches generally call a "visenage" or something similar for the purpose of examination. The purpose of the ordaining body is to ascertain if the person claiming a call really knows the gospel and can preach and teach from Scripture effectively. Does he genuinely understand enough theology to be able to answer the questions that arise in the pew? Things like this.

The third stream that must concur is the call of a local congregation. There must be a willingness to submit to the teaching and ruling of the man -- always in the Lord, of course. Lacking such, a man can think of himself as called, but that doesn't make it so.

Hope that helps clarify.

The more I think about this, the more uncomfortable I become about this way of saying it. It would be better to say that a call from Christ requires the confluence of three testimonies. When I first answered this, I understood you to be asking about an "internal call." That was not your question and I should not have assumed it was.

Kalled2Preach,

Okie Dokie.... here ya go!

This is an extended portion from James Bannerman's The Church of Christ. It consists of 3 .pdf files. After unzipping the main file, extract the three files to wherever you like on your HD.

Clicky here: Bannerman.zip.

In His Grace,

Well think about it this way. If they must be administered by ordained ministers who are the authorities who ordain them? Rome? The Archbishop of Canterbury? When you get down to it a lot of people here will say the only ministers worth of doing it are the ones of whom they themselves approve.

So, get someone to ordain you. And away you go. Simple. If you don't have anyone to ordain you just start a new denomination. Soon you will be the boss handing out the crackers. Thats what most Protestants have done. They have just conveniently forgot that fact.

Passion Player

OK, you are right to a point, but God has given His authority to certain men in the church, and we have no right to sidestep this authority and make up our own rules. The real issue is, who has God given this authority to?

This assumes that God will continue to provide faithful men for his church who will teach the same truths that Paul taught. I don't think it is a stretch to believe that the same ones entrusted to teach God's Word faithfully are also entrusted to seeing that the sacraments/ordinances are rightly administered.