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#15103 - Fri Jun 04, 2004 3:45 PM Re: An Economic question [Re: Wes]  
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Wes

I will let Bill answer for himself, but when you said:

"For example even though everything we have is a gift from God, whether that be an able body or mind, are you suggesting that we still should hold everything in common with our neighbor? Should a hard working man share his possession with a lazy man? Is socialism appealing to you?"

I believe that any able bodied person should be required to do things for their community if they want to eat.
This would cause a lot of lazy people to actually not be lazy. I also believe this should be a supervised thing, too many people when they are not supervised will do as little as possible.

Tom

#15104 - Fri Jun 04, 2004 6:02 PM Re: An Economic question [Re: Wes]  

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OK. I agree with Tom, and Wes. While I do hold posessions, I do not consider them absolute. It is proper to give from these posessions for the betterment of all Christians. Also.......I don't think we have as many 'poor' as we are led to believe. The poorest households in the U.S.A. have an average of two televisions, one car, hot water and access to food at least once a day. There is also ample opportunity to better onesself through education or various training schools and apprenticeships. The gospel is preached nearly every Sunday in America as well. While this may be poverty based on an average of incomes, this is not poverty like many third world countries understand it. With this in mind, most of my giving to the poor, monetarily speaking, goes overseas.


God bless,

william

#15105 - Fri Jun 04, 2004 7:18 PM Re: An Economic question  
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"I do agree with the last sentence of your post, but would also add the extreme right to it. None of those possitions are tenable when viewed through Scpriture"


I quite agree. The extreme right has just as much to do with socialism as the extreme left. The Soviet Union being the prime example.


"There is nothing that keeps wicked men at any one moment out of hell, but the mere pleasure of God." - Jonathan Edwards
#15106 - Fri Jun 04, 2004 9:39 PM Re: An Economic question [Re: Wes]  

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Quote
Wes said:
Quote
Bill writes:

But Iím not sure I understand your conclusion.

For example even though everything we have is a gift from God, whether that be an able body or mind, are you suggesting that we still should hold everything in common with our neighbor? Should a hard working man share his possession with a lazy man? Is socialism appealing to you?


Wes <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" />


Hi again Wes, and thanks for responding to my post.

See, that is my problem. I can not draw a conclusion at this point. I have not studied enough economics in a Christian perspective to be sure I can have a solid opnion. My main point was that I want to be very, very sure that whatever conlusion I do end up enbracing has passed through the fire of the Word of God. And I'm somehow seem to have a gut feeling that I have yet to hear the "truth" from the standard secular perspectives that say I should choose from either lierbalism or conservatism. I offered the Calvin quotes because he is a man I have some trust in, and his comments seem germane. Of course I do understand that Scripture is our only fully trustworthy source. But I do have some respect for church fathers, even in their human weakness. So I look to them for help in understanding.
Once again to answer you in more specifics I will repeat some things I said in other posts.

(I'm not sure if the other comments I made are in this thread or not. I'm pretty tired tonight. I have been working 11 hour days for the last couple of weeks. I am a bus driver for a mass transit system and due to a number of quirky reasons we are very short-handed right now. And you can't just slap somebody into the seat of a 45 foot motor coach and have them dash around downtown Pittsburgh in rush hour. Hehehe. So I probably should have waited till morning to respond to you. But I do enjoy the fine discussions here even though I am very new to group.)

I am most certainly not advocating that goods be held in common. Communisim and socialism are not Christ centered, at least in my opnion. And in another post I quoted from 2 Thessalonians 3:10 - "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work neither should he eat."
So according to that proof-text you would not want to share with a lazy man. So I find it confusing to read John Calvin's teaching: "...we must not think of a man's real value, but only of his creation in the image of God to which we owe all possible honor and love. ...Suppose that he is unworthy of your least exertion; but the image of God which recommends him to you deserves that you surrender yourself and all your possessions to him." I do understand that one is Holy Scripture and the other just a man talking, but how do I reconcile what appears to be very conflicting ideas.

Lately I have been praying extra hard that I be granted more wisdom. If you have a spare moment in your devotional time please ask God to remove at least some of the fog in my intelligence challenged mind.

Bill

Edited: added a missing closing "quote" tag. [Linked Image]

Last edited by Pilgrim; Fri Jun 04, 2004 9:44 PM.
#15107 - Sat Jun 05, 2004 12:57 AM Re: An Economic question  
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averagefellar

In the small city that I live in, I am told by reliable sources that there are entire families living on the streets.

Tom

#15108 - Sat Jun 05, 2004 8:32 AM Re: An Economic question  
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Quote
Bill_Ross said:

See, that is my problem. I can not draw a conclusion at this point. I have not studied enough economics in a Christian perspective to be sure I can have a solid opnion. My main point was that I want to be very, very sure that whatever conlusion I do end up enbracing has passed through the fire of the Word of God. And I'm somehow seem to have a gut feeling that I have yet to hear the "truth" from the standard secular perspectives that say I should choose...


I understand. However, I think it is clear that Scripture does not conceive of the church's primary role in the world to be setting up world governments nor taking care of the needy through political means. Socialism is a humanistic way of doing this, so when we vote, we must do what we think is best by biblical standards.

You might find this chart helpful. It's a chart comparing the differences between modern humanism and Christianity in the field of economics. This chart also shows the philosophical differences between socialism and Christianity. Socialized Welfare, Education, Health Care, etc. are functions which are essential for socialism, egalitarianism, multiculturalism & globalism. The State has no biblical authority for administering these functions.

Here's another interesting study which deals with the topic of socialism. It discusses the question "Can the Government Fulfill Our Obligation to Help the Poor?" Socialism in the Church of God

Matthew 25:31-40 is not fulfilled by paying oneís taxes, but by personally caring for the poor.

I hope you find these helpful and may the Lord give us all wisdom to faithfully carry out His will.


Wes

#15109 - Sat Jun 05, 2004 11:53 AM Re: An Economic question [Re: Tom]  
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Quote
Tom said:
averagefellar

In the small city that I live in, I am told by reliable sources that there are entire families living on the streets.

Tom

And your point is? [Linked Image]


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#15110 - Sat Jun 05, 2004 9:01 PM Re: An Economic question [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Tom, I might suggest a book entitled "Nickel and Dimed". If I can find it I'll get you the author.


"There is nothing that keeps wicked men at any one moment out of hell, but the mere pleasure of God." - Jonathan Edwards
#15111 - Sun Jun 06, 2004 12:09 PM Re: An Economic question [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Pilgrim

Sorry, I thought it was self explanatory.
My point is that at least where I live; there are people who are in desperate situations in North America.
Although I certainly agree with averagefellow that on the whole some countries over seas are worse off than us, but we do have a huge need here as well.

Tom

#15112 - Sun Jun 06, 2004 12:40 PM Re: An Economic question [Re: Tom]  

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I would definitely agree Tom, that there is a real need in all parts of the world. My mother helped to establish one of the most successful meal programs in Evansville, in the late 1980's. She ran it for seven years before turning it over to a larger group. It is still running today. I have encountered all types of people and I know there is an honest need.

I also believe that too many handouts can make people become complacent with their situation. Handups tend to come with a bit more than a meal; accountability. Now, I won't get started about responsibility and accountability in this thread.


God bless,

william

#15113 - Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:46 PM Re: An Economic question  
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It sounds like you and I are in agreement in this matter. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

Tom

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