The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Regulative principle

Dear OS_X
Could you please explain what that symbol is that you are doing with your hand <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/peace.gif" alt="" /> in the picture you posted. Does it mean peace or it is supposed to be a little head with horns. Perhaps I'm a bit superstitious.

In peace Yankee

janean and others,

This idea that Luther and others borrowed "bar tunes" for their sacred music belongs on the "Snopes" website as an urban myth. There isn't a shred of truth to this charge, which is used by those who would try and justify nearly any form of music for worship. One of the most informative articles on musicology for the church can be found here: Congregational Singing and the Ministry of the Word.

Here is a short section taken from that article which addresses this matter of "bar tunes", etc.

As soon as I say this, someone will retort, "But Luther used songs from the bar." This is a regrettable misconception widely popularized in our time. Similarly, some will triumphantly respond with that famous Luther quotation: "Why should the Devil have all the good tunes?" Anyone who has read Luther extensively knows that when Luther spoke of the Devil, he usually meant the papacy. In truth, when Luther asked, "Why should the Devil have all the good tunes?" he did not mean, "Why should the good tunes remain out there in the bar when we could use them in church?" Rather, he meant the Reformation church should not leave all the fine old hymns to the Roman Catholic Church. He was making a passionate plea for the use of traditional music!

As for Luther borrowing tunes from the bar, this is a misunderstanding of both music theory and music history. The "bar form" is a label for a musical/architectural form, not a description of musical activity occurring in a public place of alcoholic consumption. In Luther's time, there were academic societies called Meistersingers.²² They existed for the purpose of composing songs based usually on biblical texts, and the musical form they used was called a "bar form."²³ The bar form is like a fixed recipe. It has as much to do with consuming alcoholic beverages in a public place as does "bar oil" for a chain saw, attorneys "passing the bar," or Jewish boys and their "Bar Mitzvahs."

Immediately after the section where the above quote is taken, Dr. Payton discusses the matter of "style". It would definitely be worth everyone's time to read that entire article and then take some time to re-evaluate their relative positions on this matter of music.

In His Grace,

Yankee,

That little animated Smiley has nothing to do with "horns" or anything "demonic", etc. It's just a silly little gesture, actually poking fun at modern society, that some Rock & Rollers use(d) to symbolize: "right on, Dude!". In other words, it was an ignorant expression of emotional agreement of something. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/3stooges.gif" alt="" />

I was also under the impression that some of Luthers songs were written to "bar songs." This didnt strike me as odd considering katharina ran a brewery. I am pretty sure at least a few of his songs were originally folk songs. Whether they were or not would not change my opinion on music.

The type of music that you sing a hymn to does not matter to me. The question i would ask is, "what is the reason for changing the music style." Worshiping is all about God and not our own desires. My church does sing both "contemporary" worship songs and hymns. I often think music is used in the wrong way, to spark emotions or whatever. I personally prefer to sings hymns at church with the organ. In my free time i listen to all kinds of music including heavy rock music. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/peace.gif" alt="" /> I would probably be more in line with that OS X believes. Although i hate rap music, it is only music and im sure i could worship God with it playing.

Pilgrim
You have misunderstood me I was addressing a person not the smiley. The smiley is for amusment and rather funny that I understand. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/sorry.gif" alt="" /> I should not have included him or a her in my post.

Hi, Pilgrim. Please accept my apologies for fostering a falsehood among the brothers and sisters here at the message board. I did some checkin' (beyond what is on this article) and I agree that my understanding of Luther's use of "bar tunes" was wrong. Please forgive me.


Per your suggestion, Pilgrim, I read this article and found it to be quite edifying. However, it has not changed my position in regard to worship music. In Biblical worship music, the melody (or tune or style, etc.) is not necessarily what matters, I believe. It is the use of the Word of God (or similar praises/Biblical theology) that is what matters. PLEASE NOTE, HOWEVER: I am in agreement with the author (and with Martin Luther) that I would be VERY uncomfortable with Biblical lyrics being brought together with a clearly profane piece of music. This, however, does not preclude, in my mind, the use of Rock, Rap, etc. music with appropriately Biblical lyrics.

Thanks for your input, Pilgrim. I ALWAYS appreciate your contributions to the discussion!

In Christ,
Ted

Yankee,

And please forgive me for my misunderstanding of the point you were trying to make. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/stupidme.gif" alt="" />

Pigrim
All is well. Sometimes my mouth gets me in trouble. Would you be so gracious to delete my reply to OX_S and the rest of these post's

Bill

How is it immoral ? What makes it immoral, exactly ?
(and I haven't stated or NOT stated that I believe that music is or is not morally neutral, by the way.)

:lol: Pic from my fraternity days. It's our hand sign. Depending on where you are in the country and WHO you are, it could mean several different things. It could mean 'Longhorns' if you're in Texas, it could be the 'funk' sign used frequently by George Clinton of Parliment/Funkadelic fame; it could be the fraternity hand sign (with or without the thumb in or out) for Phi Beta Sigma Fraternity, Inc (which I'm a member of, though I'm not active right now) or Kappa Kappa Psi National Honorary Band Fraternity (which I'm not a member of, though I do play musical instruments).

Oh yeah, it can also mean 'Rock On'. Forgot about that one!

SDG, I think there is a RIGHT way to spark the emotions with music. David didn't write Psalm 51 in an emotional vaccum. You can hear the sorrow and contrition in his words 'against YOU ONLY have I sinned'.

I doubt Psalms like 95 were sung sitting still in ancient Israel. In fact, I personally wonder what kind of person who claims to be saved (specifically if you're reformed) can sing through Cowper's Hymn

"There is a fountain filled with blood
drawn from Immanuel's veins
And sinners plunged beneath that flood
Lose all their guilty stains"

and not have his/her emotions stirred within him with gratitude for the salvation which God has given. Sunday, I saw men and women come to tears as we sung through some modern rendition of one of Cowper's old hymns... and the words were so rich with theological truth, the music so appropriate at the moment that yes, our hearts were stirred, our emotions welled up and some of us came to tears at the singing of words which expressed God's providence and preservation of us and His giving of Himself for His sheep.

*edit*
That being said, I do have problems with music which takes familiar secular melodies and remakes with Christianized lyrics. Sorry, but it's very difficult to get into the right frame of mind for worship and remain there when the music is bringing up stuff probably from where you came from.

OS_X,

Please read the article called "Evaluating Music Intended for Christian Worship and Enjoyment" by Leonard Seidel, here on the Highway, for a good discussion of music's morality or amorality!

In His Hands,

Ruth

Well, like I said, I'm not entirely convinced either way. But we might consider how music communicates, and what it communicates thereby (leaving aside lyrics, which I think we can generally agree upon). Rap and rock music quite obviously have a different style of communication than does classical, for example, and because of the stylistic differences they communicate different things.

This, by the way, is the piece Ruth recommends to you: http://www.the-highway.com/music1_Seidel.html

And the author's argument for one particular style of worship falls flat on its' face when we look at worship in other cultures. Fact is, everyone's worship service doesn't look or sound like a 17th century presbyterian church.... nor is it supposed to. This is the typical (for lack of a better term) eurocentric slant on Christianity that gets shoved down the throats of everyone from differing cultures than the 'host culture' of reformed theology.

I skimmed (I'm at work) his points on style and each has an error in it, based on his assumption of what is acceptable and what isn't. I may actually print this and take the time to write a rebuttal to this section alone (my degree is Music Education, so yes... I am qualified). I'm not saying he doesn't make any good points... just that his whole premise is wrong.