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Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: J_Edwards] #17791
Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:11 PM
Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:11 PM
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J_Edwards offers:
Thus, I chose not to challenge Tom's statement (Martyn Lloyd-Jones could be called a Charismatic) as it may very well be correct depending on one’s definition of Charismatic.

I guess my definition of Charismatic is decidedly different than what some may hold to. I am quite privy to Lloyd-Jones' position that the ecstatic gifts may be relevant for today, but what is indisputable is his view was not practiced in his church; at least to any extent that it is widely known. However, the overwhelming majority of his theology and practice is impeccable and to choose to not read any of his writings or worse yet to judge him unregenerate is, IMHO, incredibly ignorant and prejudicial. Would I be half the man of God that Martyn Lloyd-Jones was, I would surely be a blessed man indeed. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yes, I find his quasi non-cessationist views to be in error. But I also find equally unacceptable errors in Calvin and Spurgeon. Yet, none of these views which I find objectionable bear upon salvation and are non-essentials.

In His Grace,


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Re: Are Charismatics Christians? #17792
Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:51 PM
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I must say that when I was a Charismatic, I was always taught that the canon of Scripture was closed.

Tom

Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: Tom] #17793
Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:56 PM
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Tom said:
I must say that when I was a Charismatic, I was always taught that the canon of Scripture was closed.

Tom

Did you or other church members speak in tongues, operate in the gift of interpretation, etc.?


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Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: Tom] #17794
Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:03 PM
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Tom said:
I must say that when I was a Charismatic, I was always taught that the canon of Scripture was closed.

There is little doubt that what you were taught was inconsistent with what was practiced. To affirm the validity of the ecstatic (revelatory) gifts is to deny a closed Canon. This is something which Charismatics/Pentecostals cannot defend against and one of the stronger arguments against their view(s). Since the alleged "tongues" and "prophecies" come via a direct communication of the Holy Spirit, then this is therefore new revelation and inherently inerrant and infallible. Wayne Grudem has been challenged on this point by Richard Gaffin and has failed miserably to try and defend his view.

Over 30 years ago, when the Charismatic phenomena came sweeping through New England, where I was living at the time, we had a couple of women who claimed the Holy Spirit "revealed" things to them, which they wrote down. Because of the source of these "messages", they were given much attention and considered to be authoritative. I was but an infant Christian, but it was the Holy Spirit Who opened the written Word of God to me which taught such things were not of God and to summarily reject them. Funny how God the Spirit can speak out of both sides of His mouth, isn't it? On the one hand, the inspired, infallible, and inerrant written Word can teach one thing and on the other, allegedly "speak" to people things which are contrary to what He inspired to have written.


1 John 4:1 (KJV) "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."



In His Grace,


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Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: J_Edwards] #17795
Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:49 PM
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Yes to each question.

The reason why I left the movement is basically (though it is a long story) because I started seeing in Scripture conflicting things to the message that was preached in the Pentecostal Church.
My pastor, always told everyone (and I might say very forcefully) don't ever accept anything I or anyone else says, without checking it out in the Word of God.

I have to admit that when I stopped believing and practicing the Charismatic message, I did so despite my feelings on the matter. In many ways my Charismatic experience, made my walk with God SEEM to be a lot stronger than before, or for that matter since. However, I could not go with my subjective feelings on the matter, I had to go with the objective truth I believed the Word of God taught.
I have friends that left the movement for very similar reasons.

At this time, I would rather not get into any specifics as to what those conflicting things were to the message that was preached in the Pentecostal Church.

Tom

Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: Tom] #17796
Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:25 PM
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I would refer you to Pilgrim's post as he covered the reason why speaking in tongues, etc. deny a closed canon, etc.

A few additional things ring true though in your comments (1) though you were apart of such a group you were still saved (2) God had you there for some reason--as His providence is never accidental (3) you, by the Spirit of God recognized the error in some of their teachings and left--another sign of genuine Christianity.

Have you been able to identify any reason why in God's providence you ended up in a Charismatic Church instead of a Baptist Church during this time? (besides being able to identify their errors, etc.)


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Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: J_Edwards] #17797
Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:38 PM
Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:38 PM

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A few additional things ring true though in your comments (1) though you were apart of such a group you were still saved


I suppose experience rules here, so let me share mine. I feel the opposite. While I may have been elect during this time, I was in terrible error on a number of issues. I don't think I was 'saved' until I became reformed. My view of Christianity changed as well as my life style.

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Have you been able to identify any reason why in God's providence you ended up in a Charismatic Church instead of a Baptist Church during this time? (besides being able to identify their errors, etc.)


Not directly, except it is definitely true of the ladder notion. I can also offer an acceptable defense against mormonism, something I was involved in for a few years as well. Still, I don't think I was 'saved' as a member of a cult, either. A very large majority of charismatics are baptists in their view of baptism.

After leaving charismania, I actually drifted for some time. I was Disciples of Christ, UMC, and then just a liberal Christian; non-denominational. I was arminian to the core and thoroughly confused, still.

Once I came to understand the doctrines of grace, I was a reformed Baptist for about six months. For the last three years I have been a paedo-baptist in my understanding. Well, several of my beliefs changed, but that's a different thread. There's my basic experience.


God bless,

william

Re: Are Charismatics Christians? #17798
Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:52 PM
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Yes, William all of us have different experiences. Is it possible to be a member of a Reformed Church and not be saved and later be saved in a Charismatic Church? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" /> Experiences should not interpret Scripture, but merely should provide us some illustration of its truths. I believe you would agree with me that it is possible for someone to (1) be saved and yet be Charismatic (2) that God might have a purpose in it? Let's take another example: Luther chose to stay in the Catholic Church for some time after his conversion believing it could be reformed. In this, God revealed His purpose very powerfully in His providence called the Protestant Reformation.

Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: J_Edwards] #17799
Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:04 PM
Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:04 PM

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Yes, William all of us have different experiences. It is possible to be a member of a Reformed Church and not be saved and later be saved in a Charismatic Church.


Indeed. God works in mysterious ways. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/yep.gif" alt="" />

Quote
But, experiences should not interpret Scripture, but merely should provide us some illustration of its truths.


I think that as reformed brothers, we are also going to agree here. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

Quote
I believe you would agree with me that it is possible for someone to (1) be saved and yet be Charismatic (2) that God might have a purpose in it?


I believed that once one becomes enlightened as to the teachings of charismania, they will leave due to the serious errors taught in most charismatic churches. Your next illustration helps to show this.

Quote
Let's take another example: Luther chose to stay in the Catholic Church for some time after his conversion believing it could be reformed. In this, God revealed His purpose very powerfully in His providence called the Protestant Reformation.


Luther came out of Rome? Why? Isn't it a proper church? If I decided today to become RCC, and support the beliefs upheld by Rome, would you still consider me regenerate? This is precisely my point. Every person I know that was charismatic left when they became enlightened. Me, Tom, and many others came to see the majority of the movement as theologically incorrect and left for a more proper church.


God bless,

william

Re: Are Charismatics Christians? #17800
Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:21 PM
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Luther came out of Rome? Why? Isn't it a proper church?

Yes, Luther finally did come out of Rome, but not immediately. Re-read the account of his life and see the struggles he had.... But, during his time after his conversion, but before his withdrawal from the Catholic Church how would you have treated him? To you would Luther have been a member of the Church prior to his withdrawing from the Catholic Church? Would you personally have considered him a Christian though he bore the label Catholic?

One more example: Was Augustine a Christian? Did he have any beliefs that would not be considered biblical today? What denomination was he?

Quote
If I decided today to become RCC, and support the beliefs upheld by Rome, would you still consider me regenerate?

If you supported the RCC and believed their doctrine from your heart--then no you are not regenerate. But, this is not the only scenario, as noted above concerning Luther and Augustine.

Quote
This is precisely my point. Every person I know that was charismatic left when they became enlightened. Me, Tom, and many others came to see the majority of the movement as theologically incorrect and left for a more proper church.

While I can agree with you here, this is NOT the question. The question in this thread is Are Charismatics Christians? Is this possible at all? The answer simply is yes! Many people leave the Charismatic church because their Christian discernment tells them it is wrong (note the wording Christian discernment).... of course, others leave for various other reasons.


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Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: J_Edwards] #17801
Tue Sep 28, 2004 2:27 AM
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J_Edwards said:

Have you been able to identify any reason why in God's providence you ended up in a Charismatic Church instead of a Baptist Church during this time? (besides being able to identify their errors, etc.)


Well...I did meet my wife of 22 years (as of Sept 18th) there. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cloud9.gif" alt="" />
I also have some friends that came out of the Pentecostal Church that I met there. One in particular, became a Reformed Baptist and we didn't even know about these changes in each other, until I was ready to broach the topic with him about 5-6 years ago.

Tom

Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: J_Edwards] #17802
Tue Sep 28, 2004 2:42 AM
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J Edwards

Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding of Luther is that he was forced out of the RCC, because he refused to give into RC authorities. Instead he clung to what he knew in his heart God said in the scriptures and the rest is history.
His purpose in staying within was to reform it, but God in His wisdom had other plans.

Tom

Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: Tom] #17803
Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:02 AM
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I said something similar here.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: J_Edwards] #17804
Tue Sep 28, 2004 5:18 PM
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Oops sorry <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />, you did. I had previously understood you differently.

Tom

Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: Pilgrim] #17805
Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:16 PM
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Yes, I find his quasi non-cessationist views to be in error. But I also find equally unacceptable errors in Calvin and Spurgeon. Yet, none of these views which I find objectionable bear upon salvation and are non-essentials.


Just curious as to what these equally as unacceptable errors are. Not wanting to stir the pot, but I'm interested.


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
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