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Are Charismatics Christians? #17776
Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:38 AM
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Moved from the Sola Scriptura? A Catholic Response thread due to its being [Linked Image]

Averagefellar

I am of course in agreement with you in most of what you said. However the following I can not agree with you on.

You said: "P.S. I don't think charismatics are Christians, so your example is poor and nearly useless."

So you are saying that people such as the late Martyn Lloyd-Jones and John Piper are not Christians?
I am not a Charismatic, but the first Calvinists I ever met were. They are very fine Christian people.

Tom

Last edited by Pilgrim; Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:54 AM.
Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: Tom] #17777
Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:44 AM
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Can one be a calvinist and deny Sola Scriptura? Where does Piper claim to be charismatic?


God bless,

william

Re: Are Charismatics Christians? #17778
Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:00 PM
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When John Piper visited in England in 1997 he spoke at Clarendon Fellowship and the Banner of Truth Conference. Clarendon is part of the Pioneer House Church movement verging on restorationist theology. During the conference Piper displayed intense emotional reactions in corporate worship: tears, hand raising, etc. At the same time the review of the conference by Banner of Truth and another journal (CRN) both criticized Piper's 'Christian Hedonism' primarily on the grounds that the theology is charismatic. Such a claim Piper denies in a sermon entitled, "Brothers Consider Christian Hedonism." Piper outlines the reasoning behind his belief that our duty as a Christian is to maximize our joy in God:

Quote
Christian hedonism aims to replace a Kantian morality with a biblical one. Immanuel Kant, the German philosopher who died in 1804, was the most powerful exponent of the notion that the moral value of an act decreases as we aim to derive any benefit from it. Acts are good if the doer is "disinterested." We should do the good because it is good. Any motivation to seek joy or reward corrupts the act.

Against this Kantian morality (which has passed as Christian for too long!), we must herald the unabashedly hedonistic biblical morality. Jonathan Edwards, who died when Kant was 34, expressed it like this in one of his early resolutions: "Resolved, to endeavor to obtain for myself as much happiness in the other world as I possibly can, with all the power, might, vigor and vehemence, yea, violence, I am capable of, or can bring myself to exert, in any way that can be thought of."

You can take it from here.


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Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: J_Edwards] #17779
Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:48 PM
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IMHO, Piper uses some of the teachings of Jonathan Edwards as a springboard to give credence to his own in the area of "Christian hedonism" in an unwarranted manner. Methinks that Piper's teaching is a bit extreme and cannot be justified from either Edwards' writings nor Scripture. This does not mean, however, that Piper is to be judged to be a non-Christian, but only that these particular views he holds are in error.

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Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: Pilgrim] #17780
Sat Sep 25, 2004 2:06 PM
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I fully agree. I also do not think he can actually be said to be a full Charismatic. Maybe a semi-Charismatic <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


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Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: Tom] #17781
Sat Sep 25, 2004 2:08 PM
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I think a better question would be to ask what makes a Charismatic not a Christian. It is by distinguishing their errors with regard to salvation that we could make a case rather than focusing on their lack of cessationism.


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
Re: Are Charismatics Christians? #17782
Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:20 PM
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As Joe said, I would classify Piper as semi-Charismatic.

I believe, Martyn Lloyd-Jones could be called a Charismatic however. Yet many Calvinists call him one of the greatest Reformed theologians of the last century.

Tom

Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: Tom] #17783
Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:42 PM
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Being a reformed theologian does not necessitate one be a true Christian. How many people? You seem to use this line quite often and now I am curious as to your evidence. Having a large following also does not necessitate truth.

Charismatics, at least ALL I know do not support Sola Scriptura instead supporting continued revelation. An incredible majority are Pelagian/Arminian as well. The entire movement is based upon some very grievous interpretations of scripture due to the notion that the all you need is yourself and a Bible for truth. How about that second working of the Spirit or the belief that tongues MUST follow baptism of the Spirit? Nearly the entirety of charismatic theologians are dispensational. I could go on, but suffice it to say that I personally believe that a vast majority of charismatics are simply deluded.


God bless,

william

Re: Are Charismatics Christians? #17784
Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:57 PM
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averagefellar

I can not prove to you that RC Sproul or anyone (including you)is a Christian, let alone Martyn Lloyd-Jones is a Christian.
However, I have a good idea that they are Christians, because of what they have written or said.

The Highway has many articles written by Martyn Lloyd-Jones, perhaps you should read some of these.
I don't want to speak for Pilgrim, but unless I am mistaken he would afirm with me that he (Martyn Lloyd-Jones) is a fellow Christian.
He obviously doesn't agree with his Charismatic leanings, but he wouldn't question whether or not he is a true Christian.

Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: Tom] #17785
Sun Sep 26, 2004 4:18 PM
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I have nearly 60 books by Martyn Lloyd-Jones and feel very comfortable with most of what I have read from him. Much of his material on the Holy Spirit (Joy Unspeakable) is incorrect for sure, but to call him "deluded," seems rather disrespectful and not understanding what he, by the Spirit of God, accomplished for the Church. In his day he was one of the most profound ministers of the Gospel in existence. He was so deluded his commentary on Romans was only 14 volumes (a couple more are being produced now to finish the set), and he only wrote 8 volumes on Ephesians.

While I do not agree with a great majority of Charismatic theology, I would be far from calling everyone of them unregenerate, deluded, etc. IMHO it would be better said that they may be unlearned in some areas and in need of of some proper instruction. Of course there are some like Wayne Gruden and Martyn Lloyd-Jones we could all gain from in return.


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Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: J_Edwards] #17786
Sun Sep 26, 2004 4:57 PM
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He was so deluded his commentary on Romans was only 14 volumes (a couple more are being produced now to finish the set), and he only wrote 8 volumes on Ephesians.


Again, number of commentaries means salvation? I might be wrong.......the church of Rome has written a few hundred more but I somehow fail to see the connection. Now, let's deal with the real issue, how far can one be outside orthodoxy and remain Christian? Nobody seems willing to answer this in the thread on Essentials, yet we all seem rather willing to defend our pet theologians rather quickly. Who else should we now include? How about Rod Parsley? Benny Hinn? Pope John Paul? I am unwilling to accept an open canon as a Christian belief. I never spoke directly about any specific person but as the group as a whole. Maybe one of you two could explain to us all the good the charismatic movement has brought about? How about if we just limit it to how charismatic theology upholds historical truths set forth by the Church? That should be a short list. Coming out of this very movement, I stand firm that an incredible majority of charismatics are deluded.


God bless,

william

Re: Are Charismatics Christians? #17787
Sun Sep 26, 2004 5:57 PM
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William said speaking specifically of MLJ,

Again, number of commentaries means salvation? I might be wrong.......the church of Rome has written a few hundred more but I somehow fail to see the connection.

No, writing a number of commentaries about any book of the Bible does not prove one’s salvation, any more then the number of your posts here prove you are. The connection is that the books of Romans and Ephesians speak a lot about salvation and the “Dr.” exegetes them ever so carefully. If he believes what he wrote there then he is a Christian. Have you ever read them?

Quote
William said,

Now, let's deal with the real issue, how far can one be outside orthodoxy and remain Christian? Nobody seems willing to answer this in the thread on Essentials, yet we all seem rather willing to defend our pet theologians rather quickly. Who else should we now include? How about Rod Parsley? Benny Hinn? Pope John Paul?

The real issue in this thread is Are Charismatics Christians? and not the Essentials. So, let us get back to the real issue in this thread: To Tom’s question, “So you are saying that people such as the late Martyn Lloyd-Jones and John Piper are not Christians?” and his statement, “I believe, Martyn Lloyd-Jones could be called a Charismatic however. Yet many Calvinists call him one of the greatest Reformed theologians of the last century,” you answered, “Being a reformed theologian does not necessitate one be a true Christian.” While I would agree with you that being Reformed does not necessitate anyone being a Christian, you were answering whether or not “Martyn Lloyd-Jones and John Piper are Christians” (as attested directly above in your answer to me). Now, if your intent is to say they are not saved what evidence do you have? As far as Essentials read, "Essential Truths of the Christian Faith," by R. C. Sproul.

Quote
William said,

Maybe one of you two could explain to us all the good the charismatic movement has brought about? How about if we just limit it to how charismatic theology upholds historical truths set forth by the Church? That should be a short list. Coming out of this very movement, I stand firm that an incredible majority of charismatics are deluded.

You just answered your own question, “Coming out of this very movement…”. William God does not make mistakes in His providence. If you were a Charismatic then it was within the plan of God for some reason. There was something there you needed—not just to be able to state they are delusional. Are any individuals actually saved in the Charismatic movement by their witnessing, etc. You would be hard pressed to say “no.” As matter a fact my sister-in-law and her husband were lead to Christ a while back in their movement. Her husband began asking questions about 2 months ago, and now he has seen “more” light and joined a PCA Church a few weeks back. Though one is drawn to Christ despite what is taught in many cases, still there is "some truth" in these denominations (Philippians 1:18). Though there is a lot of undoctrinal beliefs in several movements making blanket statements about them as you have here is unwarranted IMHO.


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Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: J_Edwards] #17788
Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:07 PM
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If he believes what he wrote there then he is a Christian. Have you ever read them?


No. Once again, since you seemed to miss this, I never questioned anybody specifically. If you wish to continue to beat this dead horse, do so. The argument holds zero merit. However, I suppose you can now list what the essentials are?

Quote
Now who is being delusional comparing the likes of Benny Hinn to Martyn Lloyd-Jones?


I made no such comparison. I simply asked where we draw the line for charismatic theologians. Please stop misrepresenting my words.

Quote
Now, if your intent is to say they are not saved what evidence do you have?


What do we use for anybody? Again, please respond in the Essentials thread and we can continue from there.

Quote
Though there is a lot of undoctrinal beliefs in several movements making blanket statements about them as you have here is unwarranted IMHO.


Your opinion noted.


God bless,

william

Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: J_Edwards] #17789
Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:45 PM
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This line of discussion I find unnecessary. It could have taken a totally different direction if one of you would have rightly challenged Tom's assertion that Martyn Lloyd-Jones was or could have been considered to be a "Charismatic". IMHO, he was clearly NOT "A Charismatic", although he did hold to quasi-partial non-cessationist views. I have never read anything that he wrote where he would even entertain the idea of accepting extra-biblical revelation. If he did, I am not aware of it. From all that I have read of the man's writings, he was unwavering in his belief of a closed canon and that the inspired written Word of God was the sole and final authority in ALL matters of faith and practice.

If one is willing to accept that Lloyd-Jones cannot and should not be included in the definition of what makes a "Charismatic", then the issue whether he was a regenerate man due to his inclusion is a moot point.

Now as to my own position as to whether or not Charismatics can be/are saved, it is consistent with what I hold to be true about all sects (not cults). Blanket condemnations are ALWAYS wrong, because there is undoubtedly at least one individual within such groups who is a true believer and who is either ignorant of what the group teaches or who is inconsistent with what he SAYS and what he truly BELIEVES. The fact is we ALL are guilty of some degree of inconsistency between what we profess and what we truly believe, which belief resides in the heart and is often evident in visible actions. And as I have too often said, the fact that one may be saved within such a group does not give any validity to their heresy or aberrant teaching. Most are saved IN SPITE OF what is taught and not BECAUSE of it. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Salvation is of the LORD. And history, both biblical and secular witnesses to the mystery of grace in saving sinners and delivering them from the most incredible situations, not the least being their own selves. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/joy.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,


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Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: Pilgrim] #17790
Sun Sep 26, 2004 7:26 PM
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It could have taken a totally different direction if one of you would have rightly challenged Tom's assertion that Martyn Lloyd-Jones was or could have been considered to be a "Charismatic". IMHO, he was clearly NOT "A Charismatic", although he did hold to quasi-partial non-cessationist views.

Yes, I see your point, however, there are many that consider him Charismatic as well (Piper and Grudem accept MLJ as a "C."). Several Reformed individuals I know will not read him because of this very fact. Thus, I chose not to challenge Tom's statement (Martyn Lloyd-Jones could be called a Charismatic, though I may challenge this later depending on context...) as it may very well be correct depending on one’s definition of Charismatic.

Martyn Lloyd-Jones was a cessationist, however, he did teach the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as a distinct experience to conversion. But, he came out very strongly against the Warfield kind of cessationism. He deals with the cessationist arguments and decides that they are based on conjectures and arguments from silence in order to justify a particular prejudice. He states emphatically, "To hold such a view," he says, "is simply to quench the Spirit" (see Piper's sermon below). In addition, MLJ spoke of “Seeking the Baptism of the Holy Spirit,” but this is not the same as speaking in tongues.... He looked at this as happening after regeneration. As matter a fact in his book Joy Unspeakable he states, “The Spirit does give experiences. I have tried to show that there is no experience possible to the Christian in this world higher than this experience of the baptism with the Spirit.” While I do believe MLJ was much more balanced than many I see today, none-the-less, he held to a second work of the Holy Spirit. This second work is consistent with what some would consider a Charismatic doctrine (but again it depends on one's definition of "C"). In addition, MLJ said such things as:

Quote
I think it is quite without scriptural warrant to say that all these gifts ended with the apostles or the Apostolic Era. I believe there have been undoubted miracles since then. (Iain H. Murray, David Martyn Lloyd-Jones: The Fight of Faith 1939-1981, p. 786. See also Joy Unspeakable, p. 246.)

It is perfectly clear that in New Testament times, the gospel was authenticated in this way by signs, wonders and miracles of various characters and descriptions ... Was it only meant to be true of the early church? ... The Scriptures never anywhere say that these things were only temporary—never! There is no such statement anywhere! (The Sovereign Spirit, p. 39).

MLJ also spoke out against what many Charismatics do as well; including tongues as seen today. An interesting, sermon on MLJ is A Passion for Christ-Exalting Power, by John Piper.


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Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: J_Edwards] #17791
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J_Edwards offers:
Thus, I chose not to challenge Tom's statement (Martyn Lloyd-Jones could be called a Charismatic) as it may very well be correct depending on one’s definition of Charismatic.

I guess my definition of Charismatic is decidedly different than what some may hold to. I am quite privy to Lloyd-Jones' position that the ecstatic gifts may be relevant for today, but what is indisputable is his view was not practiced in his church; at least to any extent that it is widely known. However, the overwhelming majority of his theology and practice is impeccable and to choose to not read any of his writings or worse yet to judge him unregenerate is, IMHO, incredibly ignorant and prejudicial. Would I be half the man of God that Martyn Lloyd-Jones was, I would surely be a blessed man indeed. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yes, I find his quasi non-cessationist views to be in error. But I also find equally unacceptable errors in Calvin and Spurgeon. Yet, none of these views which I find objectionable bear upon salvation and are non-essentials.

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Re: Are Charismatics Christians? #17792
Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:51 PM
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I must say that when I was a Charismatic, I was always taught that the canon of Scripture was closed.

Tom

Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: Tom] #17793
Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:56 PM
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Tom said:
I must say that when I was a Charismatic, I was always taught that the canon of Scripture was closed.

Tom

Did you or other church members speak in tongues, operate in the gift of interpretation, etc.?


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Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: Tom] #17794
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Tom said:
I must say that when I was a Charismatic, I was always taught that the canon of Scripture was closed.

There is little doubt that what you were taught was inconsistent with what was practiced. To affirm the validity of the ecstatic (revelatory) gifts is to deny a closed Canon. This is something which Charismatics/Pentecostals cannot defend against and one of the stronger arguments against their view(s). Since the alleged "tongues" and "prophecies" come via a direct communication of the Holy Spirit, then this is therefore new revelation and inherently inerrant and infallible. Wayne Grudem has been challenged on this point by Richard Gaffin and has failed miserably to try and defend his view.

Over 30 years ago, when the Charismatic phenomena came sweeping through New England, where I was living at the time, we had a couple of women who claimed the Holy Spirit "revealed" things to them, which they wrote down. Because of the source of these "messages", they were given much attention and considered to be authoritative. I was but an infant Christian, but it was the Holy Spirit Who opened the written Word of God to me which taught such things were not of God and to summarily reject them. Funny how God the Spirit can speak out of both sides of His mouth, isn't it? On the one hand, the inspired, infallible, and inerrant written Word can teach one thing and on the other, allegedly "speak" to people things which are contrary to what He inspired to have written.


1 John 4:1 (KJV) "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."



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Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: J_Edwards] #17795
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Yes to each question.

The reason why I left the movement is basically (though it is a long story) because I started seeing in Scripture conflicting things to the message that was preached in the Pentecostal Church.
My pastor, always told everyone (and I might say very forcefully) don't ever accept anything I or anyone else says, without checking it out in the Word of God.

I have to admit that when I stopped believing and practicing the Charismatic message, I did so despite my feelings on the matter. In many ways my Charismatic experience, made my walk with God SEEM to be a lot stronger than before, or for that matter since. However, I could not go with my subjective feelings on the matter, I had to go with the objective truth I believed the Word of God taught.
I have friends that left the movement for very similar reasons.

At this time, I would rather not get into any specifics as to what those conflicting things were to the message that was preached in the Pentecostal Church.

Tom

Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: Tom] #17796
Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:25 PM
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I would refer you to Pilgrim's post as he covered the reason why speaking in tongues, etc. deny a closed canon, etc.

A few additional things ring true though in your comments (1) though you were apart of such a group you were still saved (2) God had you there for some reason--as His providence is never accidental (3) you, by the Spirit of God recognized the error in some of their teachings and left--another sign of genuine Christianity.

Have you been able to identify any reason why in God's providence you ended up in a Charismatic Church instead of a Baptist Church during this time? (besides being able to identify their errors, etc.)


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Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: J_Edwards] #17797
Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:38 PM
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A few additional things ring true though in your comments (1) though you were apart of such a group you were still saved


I suppose experience rules here, so let me share mine. I feel the opposite. While I may have been elect during this time, I was in terrible error on a number of issues. I don't think I was 'saved' until I became reformed. My view of Christianity changed as well as my life style.

Quote
Have you been able to identify any reason why in God's providence you ended up in a Charismatic Church instead of a Baptist Church during this time? (besides being able to identify their errors, etc.)


Not directly, except it is definitely true of the ladder notion. I can also offer an acceptable defense against mormonism, something I was involved in for a few years as well. Still, I don't think I was 'saved' as a member of a cult, either. A very large majority of charismatics are baptists in their view of baptism.

After leaving charismania, I actually drifted for some time. I was Disciples of Christ, UMC, and then just a liberal Christian; non-denominational. I was arminian to the core and thoroughly confused, still.

Once I came to understand the doctrines of grace, I was a reformed Baptist for about six months. For the last three years I have been a paedo-baptist in my understanding. Well, several of my beliefs changed, but that's a different thread. There's my basic experience.


God bless,

william

Re: Are Charismatics Christians? #17798
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Yes, William all of us have different experiences. Is it possible to be a member of a Reformed Church and not be saved and later be saved in a Charismatic Church? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" /> Experiences should not interpret Scripture, but merely should provide us some illustration of its truths. I believe you would agree with me that it is possible for someone to (1) be saved and yet be Charismatic (2) that God might have a purpose in it? Let's take another example: Luther chose to stay in the Catholic Church for some time after his conversion believing it could be reformed. In this, God revealed His purpose very powerfully in His providence called the Protestant Reformation.

Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: J_Edwards] #17799
Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:04 PM
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Yes, William all of us have different experiences. It is possible to be a member of a Reformed Church and not be saved and later be saved in a Charismatic Church.


Indeed. God works in mysterious ways. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/yep.gif" alt="" />

Quote
But, experiences should not interpret Scripture, but merely should provide us some illustration of its truths.


I think that as reformed brothers, we are also going to agree here. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

Quote
I believe you would agree with me that it is possible for someone to (1) be saved and yet be Charismatic (2) that God might have a purpose in it?


I believed that once one becomes enlightened as to the teachings of charismania, they will leave due to the serious errors taught in most charismatic churches. Your next illustration helps to show this.

Quote
Let's take another example: Luther chose to stay in the Catholic Church for some time after his conversion believing it could be reformed. In this, God revealed His purpose very powerfully in His providence called the Protestant Reformation.


Luther came out of Rome? Why? Isn't it a proper church? If I decided today to become RCC, and support the beliefs upheld by Rome, would you still consider me regenerate? This is precisely my point. Every person I know that was charismatic left when they became enlightened. Me, Tom, and many others came to see the majority of the movement as theologically incorrect and left for a more proper church.


God bless,

william

Re: Are Charismatics Christians? #17800
Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:21 PM
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Luther came out of Rome? Why? Isn't it a proper church?

Yes, Luther finally did come out of Rome, but not immediately. Re-read the account of his life and see the struggles he had.... But, during his time after his conversion, but before his withdrawal from the Catholic Church how would you have treated him? To you would Luther have been a member of the Church prior to his withdrawing from the Catholic Church? Would you personally have considered him a Christian though he bore the label Catholic?

One more example: Was Augustine a Christian? Did he have any beliefs that would not be considered biblical today? What denomination was he?

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If I decided today to become RCC, and support the beliefs upheld by Rome, would you still consider me regenerate?

If you supported the RCC and believed their doctrine from your heart--then no you are not regenerate. But, this is not the only scenario, as noted above concerning Luther and Augustine.

Quote
This is precisely my point. Every person I know that was charismatic left when they became enlightened. Me, Tom, and many others came to see the majority of the movement as theologically incorrect and left for a more proper church.

While I can agree with you here, this is NOT the question. The question in this thread is Are Charismatics Christians? Is this possible at all? The answer simply is yes! Many people leave the Charismatic church because their Christian discernment tells them it is wrong (note the wording Christian discernment).... of course, others leave for various other reasons.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: J_Edwards] #17801
Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:27 AM
Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:27 AM
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J_Edwards said:

Have you been able to identify any reason why in God's providence you ended up in a Charismatic Church instead of a Baptist Church during this time? (besides being able to identify their errors, etc.)


Well...I did meet my wife of 22 years (as of Sept 18th) there. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cloud9.gif" alt="" />
I also have some friends that came out of the Pentecostal Church that I met there. One in particular, became a Reformed Baptist and we didn't even know about these changes in each other, until I was ready to broach the topic with him about 5-6 years ago.

Tom

Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: J_Edwards] #17802
Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:42 AM
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J Edwards

Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding of Luther is that he was forced out of the RCC, because he refused to give into RC authorities. Instead he clung to what he knew in his heart God said in the scriptures and the rest is history.
His purpose in staying within was to reform it, but God in His wisdom had other plans.

Tom

Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: Tom] #17803
Tue Sep 28, 2004 6:02 AM
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I said something similar here.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: J_Edwards] #17804
Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:18 PM
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Oops sorry <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />, you did. I had previously understood you differently.

Tom

Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: Pilgrim] #17805
Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:16 PM
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Yes, I find his quasi non-cessationist views to be in error. But I also find equally unacceptable errors in Calvin and Spurgeon. Yet, none of these views which I find objectionable bear upon salvation and are non-essentials.


Just curious as to what these equally as unacceptable errors are. Not wanting to stir the pot, but I'm interested.


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: MarieP] #17806
Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:13 PM
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SemperReformanda said:
Just curious as to what these equally as unacceptable errors are. Not wanting to stir the pot, but I'm interested.

Sorry, but that would be [Linked Image] <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Are Charismatics Christians? [Re: Tom] #17807
Thu Sep 30, 2004 12:52 AM
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LLoyd-Jones did not call himself a charismatic, criticized the key distinctives of early British charismatic theologians, denied any unScriptural practicing of the gifts, including every Christian speaking in tongues, and he taught a radically different doctrine of "the baptism of the Holy Spirit" than the charismatics do. About the only point at which he differed from a hardline cessationist position was that he denied the cessationist understanding of 1 Cor. 13:9-12 and insisted that the Spirit still has freedom to bestow "the gifts" as He sees fit.


In Christ's love and service
Timmopussycat
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