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#17970 - Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:31 PM Responsibility before God  

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http://www.the-highway.com/forum/showthr...amp;o=&vc=1

MJM said, and arminian/pelagian heresy teaches.......
Quote
My point was: Cain could really have mastered sin, otherwise God wouldn't have asked him to (Gen. 4:7).


Ummm.......that passage doesn't say that.

Quote

Gen 4:7

(ASV) If thou doest well, shall it not be lifted up? and if thou doest not well, sin coucheth at the door: and unto thee shall be its desire, but do thou rule over it.

(BBE) If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master.

(ESV) If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it."

(KJV) If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

(MKJV) If you do well, shall you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin crouches at the door; and its desire is for you, and you shall rule over it.

(NASB) "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."

(RSV) If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is couching at the door; its desire is for you, but you must master it."

(WEB) If you do well, will it not be lifted up? If you don't do well, sin crouches at the door. Its desire is for you, but you are to rule over it."

(YLT) Is there not, if thou dost well, acceptance? and if thou dost not well, at the opening a sin-offering is crouching, and unto thee its desire, and thou rulest over it.'


Nope, didn't see that anywhere. Now let's take your claim against scripture.

Quote

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (KJV)


Hmmm.......according to your reasoning, man has the ability, in and of himself, despite his sinful nature, to be "perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect"?

I keep reading your claim that man has free-will yet see zero scriptural evidence it exists. Jesus even said free-will is a myth;

Quote

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (KJV)


I'll take Jesus' words here. This idea of a siritual equipoise was discussed here, Spiritual Equipoise Unscriptural.


God bless,

william

#17971 - Fri Oct 01, 2004 10:19 AM Re: Responsibility before God  

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Hi Tom,

Thanks for the mock debate between Gerstner and Sproul. I can see that it may have helped you. But I would like to change Gerstner to a Calvinistic judge and Sproul to the kidnapper and murderer of Leigh, and let's see if it really is helpful in understanding divine justice and human responsibility:


***
CALVINISTIC JUDGE (CJ): "If God is sovereign, then it was determined from all eternity that you would murder Leigh."

MURDERER (M): "That makes me a robot."

CJ: "Well wait a minute. Are you telling me you didn't choose to murder Leigh?"

M: "I did."

CJ: "You weren't forced to murder Leigh against your will, were you? Did you have a sense of some force inhabiting your body, causing you to kidnap and murder her even though you had chosen not to?"

M: "No."

CJ: "Did you sense something interfering with your will, causing you to do something you didn't want to do, or had no intention of doing?"

M: "No. But how could I have had any choice in the matter when God determined that I was going to murder Leigh?"

CJ: "But you just told me that you did choose to murder Leigh. You did have a choice. You did exactly what you wanted to do. You weren't forced here against your will. So however God got you here, it wasn't by forcing you to be here against your will, as if moved involuntarily by a strong wind."

***

The explanation by CJ would not stand in a court of law, and neither in the heavenly courts where God is just.

According to Gerstner's last statement to Sproul, man is responsible because they weren't forced by God to act. But Tom, all Gerstner has shown is that God uses other means, besides force, to ensure that we act in accordance with his foreordination of our sins.


>> "Gerstner's approach was to appeal to the objector's own experience..."

So are you saying that our experiences tell us that we have freedom to choose, but actually we just chose what God had already chosen for us by his decretive will in eternity past? Tom, the idea of freedom is an illusion in Calvinism.

Yours in Christ,
Michael

#17972 - Fri Oct 01, 2004 6:37 PM Re: Responsibility before God  
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Michael,

I think it's a hyper-Calvinism that suggests that God ordains every single sinful act of man. Of this I cannot be certain, but I can be certain that those who God forordains in His love will infallibly persevere to salvation. On this issue scripture is abundantly clear.

In regard to sin it seems, from scripture, that God exercises control by the level of restraint placed on the devil. In 2 Thess 2:6,7 we read the following: And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way." (NKJV) And many believe that the 1000 year period that Satan is bound represents this current church age.

What will happen when the restraint is removed? Jesus says this: "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of this world until this time, no, nor ever shall be." (Matt 24:21) and again in Revelation: "For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time." (12:12b)

It seems clear, concerning sin, that God controls only the extent to which sin pervades the earth, but allows us free will concerning individual choices. In fact, as was the case with Cain, the Lord pleads with us to choose righteously. He pleads with us again in Deuteronomy saying: "I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendents may live." (30:19b)

I'm sure you agree that it would be very unseemly for the Lord to plead with us to choose differently than the sin He has ordained us to commit. In fact, it sounds down right silly. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />

catholicsoldier <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/takethat.gif" alt="" />

#17973 - Fri Oct 01, 2004 6:59 PM Re: Responsibility before God [Re: catholicsoldier]  

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Please support free-will from scripture? Because God requests your perfection, can you achieve it?


God bless,

william

#17974 - Fri Oct 01, 2004 7:14 PM Re: Responsibility before God  
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William,

Did I not just use scripture to substantiate my belief?

the exhortation to be perfect is a different issue. Note that we are to aspire to perfection, not making allowances for the flesh, but nowhere is it indicated that God expects us to never sin, only to exert ourselves onto holiness. If we are told that all have sinned, falling short of God's glory, then we rightly come to this conclusion.

Pax Christi

catholicsoldier <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/takethat.gif" alt="" />

#17975 - Fri Oct 01, 2004 7:40 PM Re: Responsibility before God [Re: catholicsoldier]  

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My apologies, I must have missed it. Could you provide that passage again, please?


God bless,

william

#17976 - Fri Oct 01, 2004 9:02 PM Re: Responsibility before God  
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William,

Okaayyyyyyyyy. You're asking me to re-post scriptural references that I already posted. Can I ask a stupid question? Can't you just click on my original post to view those references?

For heaven's sake, we're both grown men, let's please stop playing these games. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/crazyeyes.gif" alt="" />

catholicsoldier <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/takethat.gif" alt="" />

#17977 - Fri Oct 01, 2004 9:21 PM Re: Responsibility before God [Re: catholicsoldier]  

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Please stop with the personal inferences as to my age. You gave one scripture and didn't exegete it at all. However, I'll repost it here and show how this is false.

Quote

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: (KJV)


Because God offers a choice, does this necessitate mans freedom of his will? I can easily give you choices you could never live up to. Does this happen in scripture? Yes! The law, perfection, etc. Jesus even speaks against this interpretation of the passage you provided, here.......

Quote

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (KJV)


Jesus says mans will cannot choose life without regeneration. Your interpretation is incorrect and an eisegesis based upon a humanistic value, not scripture.


God bless,

william

#17978 - Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:05 PM Re: Responsibility before God  
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William said:
Quote

Quote

Joh 6:44 No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up on the last day.(KJV)


Jesus says mans will cannot choose life without regeneration. Your interpretation is incorrect and an eisegesis based upon humanistic value, not scripture.


Perhaps you didn't read closely what I wrote. In regard to salvation, I have already agreed that scripture demonstrates God decides for reasons all His own. But in regard to individual choices we make, to sin or to do right, we are given free will. This is dramatically demonstrated in the Garden of Eden in that God offered a choice to Adam for the explicit reason that He wanted to be worshipped and obeyed by our free will choice. And not because we have no other alternative. It was the only morally neutral choice ever made in the history of man, and Adam chose poorly. Because of the consequential fallen nature we have inherited, we will most certainly sin, though each time we do, we had a choice. In this predicament, it can only be by the election of God that any are saved.

By saying that I'm basing my belief on humanistic value, I assume you mean that I feel it would be unjust for God to offer man choices when he really has no choice. Though we are human, our strong sense of justice, and of right and wrong are derived from God. For we are created in His image (Genesis 1:27) and endowed with the mind of Christ.
(1Cor 2:16) And when we feel strongly that this type of cruelty is outside of God's character, we rightly conclude that any interpretation of scripture that paints God in this light must be false.

The Lord is a God of justice (Isaiah 30:18) and does not play cruel games with us. In that He gives us choices, we have choices. Otherwise He would be UNJUST to hold us accountable for our decisions. To say this is nothing but humanistic values is to presuppose that humanity is completely bereft of God's sense of justice and that our only sense of God's justice can only be derived from the letter of scripture, ignoring completely what we strongly feel to be God's character. Much to the contrary, we are, as Christians, character witnesses of God, and we are qualified to testify to that effect.

As you can see, I do use scriptures and not humanistic values to substantiate my beliefs.

Pax Christi

catholicsoldier <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/takethat.gif" alt="" />

P.S. Please try not to get offended so easily. This is the third time I have unintentionally slighted you. I feel like I'm walking on eggshells. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/uhoh.gif" alt="" />

#17979 - Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:23 PM Re: Responsibility before God [Re: catholicsoldier]  

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By saying that I'm basing my belief on humanistic value, I assume you mean that I feel it would be unjust for God to offer man choices when he really has no choice.


No. You assert mans ability to choose from a morally neutral standpoint. Scripture is decidedly against this, in that man chooses from within his nature; that being sinful. God offers man choices, but this does not necessitate man has the ability to choose contrary to his nature.

Quote
Though we are human, our strong sense of justice, and of right and wrong are derived from God. For we are created in His image (Genesis 1:27) and endowed with the mind of Christ.


That's pre-fall. Since then, man is born a sinner. Here, Saint Paul speaks of mans condition.......

Quote

Rom 3:10-18 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. (KJV)


Quote
(1Cor 2:16) And when we feel strongly that this type of cruelty is outside of God's character, we rightly conclude that any interpretation of scripture that paints God in this light must be false.


What type of cruelty? Could you elaborate? How is it cruel for God to allow man to remain where man prefers?

Quote
The Lord is a God of justice (Isaiah 30:18) and does not play cruel games with us. In that He gives us choices, we have choices. Otherwise He would be UNJUST to hold us accountable for our decisions.


Once again, you are asserting something found nowhere within Holy Writ. Because God offers a choice does not necessitate mans ability to choose contrary to his nature. This is the crux of the problem for free-williests. This is where the humanistic philosophy of Rome creeps in. Man does have a choice, and sinful man willfully chooses sin.

Quote
To say this is nothing but humanistic values is to presuppose that humanity is completely bereft of God's sense of justice and that our only sense of God's justice can only be derived from the letter of scripture, ignoring completely what we strongly feel to be God's character. Much to the contrary, we are, as Christians, character witnesses of God, and we are qualified to testify to that effect.


Scripture please?

Quote
As you can see, I do use scriptures and not humanistic values to substantiate my beliefs.


Thanks, but your interpretation requires eisegesis from a humanistic philosophy. Please give me a passage that says sinful man is capable of choosing contrary to his nature?


God bless,

william

#17980 - Sat Oct 02, 2004 4:12 AM Re: Responsibility before God  

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Hi William,

Quote

Jesus says mans will cannot choose life without regeneration. Your interpretation is incorrect and an eisegesis based upon a humanistic value, not scripture.


You say this after citing John 6:44 although Jesus does not say, "No one can come to me unless the Spirit regenerates him".

Jesus is speaking of "drawing". Before we can believe in Jesus, we need to come to him (v. 35). And we can only come to Christ if the Father draws us by his grace. However, only those who, after being drawn, listen to him, will come and believe in Christ (v. 45). Verse 44 needs to be interpreted in light of what Jesus said before and after. No where does Jesus speak of regeneration in verse 44.

Michael

#17981 - Sat Oct 02, 2004 7:16 AM Re: Responsibility before God  

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Joh 6:43-45 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. (KJV)

Emphasis mine.

How can dead men hear? Only after the regeneration of their hearts.

Quote
However, only those who, after being drawn, listen to him, will come and believe in Christ (v. 45).


Now we see that all that hear, all that God draweth, will come. Why? Because God does not draw inefficaciously. Your understanding of salvation is synergistic. The reformation countered this Roman doctrine and this denies Sola Fide. This is classic wesleyan dogma. God regenerates every single individual and then leaves the choice up to them. Prevenient grace is unscriptural. That passage plainly says that "all God draws will be raised up". "Every man that hath heard cometh". Doesn't sound like prevenient grace, but efficacious regeneration.


God bless,

william

#17982 - Sat Oct 02, 2004 12:19 PM Re: Responsibility before God  

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Hi William,

You wrote:

>> "This is classic wesleyan dogma. God regenerates every single individual and then leaves the choice up to them. Prevenient grace is unscriptural."

Wesleyan dogma does not teach that God regenerates every single individual. Where did you get this idea from? Wesleyans believe that only believers are regenerated. You also seem to think that Wesleyans / Arminians equate regeneration with prevenient grace. This is absurd. Have you read the works of Wesley or Arminius? Obviously not.

I recommend "Introduction to Christian Theology" by Wiley and Culbertson - two Wesleyan and Arminian systematic theologians. They speak of prevenient grace on pp261ff.and regeneration on pp. 282ff.

Michael.

P.S. To everyone: Fred, Marie, Pilgrim, Joe, Tom, Catholic Soldier, William, et al. This is my last message on highway.com. Thank you for the opportunity to dialogue. If you wish to correspond with me further on these issues, you may contact me at my e-mail address.

#17983 - Sat Oct 02, 2004 3:58 PM Re: Responsibility before God  

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Wesleyan dogma does not teach that God regenerates every single individual. Where did you get this idea from? Wesleyans believe that only believers are regenerated. You also seem to think that Wesleyans / Arminians equate regeneration with prevenient grace. This is absurd. Have you read the works of Wesley or Arminius? Obviously not.


Now you know what I have read. Interesting discussion style. I have read Gods Word. I took Soteriology101 at an arminian/wesleyan type Bible college. I was one for most of my life. I could list all the books I have read, but I honestly doubt anybody cares.

However, that is precisely how prevenient grace must work, if one is to uphold Total Depravity. God regenerates every humans heart just enough for them to overcome TD and allow them to choose from a morally neutral standpoint. This is precisely what I was taught, and has also been put forth here by several arminian/wesleyans that disagree with you. This idea is simply not found in scripture.

Quote
I recommend "Introduction to Christian Theology" by Wiley and Culbertson - two Wesleyan and Arminian systematic theologians. They speak of prevenient grace on pp261ff.and regeneration on pp. 282ff.
Michael.


Thanks for the recommendation. I have not taken the time to read any systematic, yet. However, I doubt it will ever be one written by people who deny their reformational roots. I started to read some of Arminius' stuff, but couldn't follow the contradictions very well, so set it aside for now.

Sorry to hear you are leaving. I was hoping to have an arminian who would stay an attempt to overcome the glaring contradictions within that system. Please feel free to return.


God bless,

william

#17984 - Mon Oct 04, 2004 10:57 AM Re: Responsibility before God  
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The explanation by CJ would not stand in a court of law, and neither in the heavenly courts where God is just.


(Fred) But Mike, you don't really explain why such an explanation would not stand up in a court of law. The issue does come down to a person being forced against his or her will, and in none of the circumstances did anyone get forced against his or her will. Surely you have watched COPS and seen the hapless prostitute get caught in a police sting? The poor girl walks up to the undercover cop in a car, he invites her to get in and eventually she will solicit sex from the undercover cop, to which she gets arrested. It is all captured on video that is used against her in a court of law. The reverse is true for those doofus guys who solicit undercover women cops playing the role of hookers.

With this situation, we have:

a) a set of pre-ordained circumstances - the police are setting up a sting to arrest men and women for the crime of soliciting prostitution.

b) Even though the circumstances were all arranged by the police and video taped by them, the individuals arrested chose to solicit prostitution and the video will be used against them in a court of law. No one forced these individuals to act any differently than they did.

Again, I would remind you of biblical examples. The most telling is the death of Christ. Could Pilate, the Romans and the Jews have acted any other way than what God had preordained would happen? If they could, what other means would God have used to get Christ on the cross to be the penalty for our sins? I do not believe suicide is an option. That is the dilemma of your philosophy.

Quote
So are you saying that our experiences tell us that we have freedom to choose, but actually we just chose what God had already chosen for us by his decretive will in eternity past? Tom, the idea of freedom is an illusion in Calvinism.


(Fred) If you start with a pagan definition of the word "freedom" (which Arminians always do), rather than a biblical definition, then it is illusionary to Calvinism. It is illusionary to the Bible also.

Fred


"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
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