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#18052 - Mon Oct 11, 2004 12:10 AM Re: Material Witness..icons and the Incarnation [Re: catholicsoldier]  
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A third reason, which is inferrence on my part, is the trend of liberal theology to embrace any form of religion they consider "inclusive". Prayer to Mary, for example, is certainly attractive to feminists.


Well, sir, as long as you are reaching (and that's quite a reach) might you consider the possibility that prayer to Mary is done for the stated intent and purpose; that she is in Heaven with the Lord and has incurred God's special grace, a never-ending reservoir that we tap into?


Might you read me in context, first? I don't think my inferrence a "reach" when speaking of American Anglicanism, much less so when speaking of the ECUSA.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#18053 - Mon Oct 11, 2004 7:02 AM Re: Material Witness..icons and the Incarnation [Re: CovenantInBlood]  

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Or, how about, Americanized Christianity as a whole? The current ECUSA issue is just at the forefront.


God bless,

william

#18054 - Mon Oct 11, 2004 7:04 AM Re: Material Witness..icons and the Incarnation [Re: catholicsoldier]  

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Mary is done for the stated intent and purpose; that she is in Heaven with the Lord and has incurred God's special grace, a never-ending reservoir that we tap into?


Once again, could you offer some support for this statement from Gods Word?


God bless,

william

#18055 - Mon Oct 11, 2004 2:47 PM Re: Material Witness..icons and the Incarnation  
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William,

Patience, my friend (?) I will be writing a post covering this subject shortly.

Pax Christi

catholicsoldier <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/takethat.gif" alt="" />

#18056 - Mon Oct 11, 2004 8:01 PM Re: Material Witness..icons and the Incarnation [Re: catholicsoldier]  
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catholicsoldier said:
...exception being that the saint are in heaven having crossed the finish line and earned God's special favor and reward He has promised to all who persevere unto death


You are blind to the very serious ramifications of this exception. Yes they've crossed finish line but they are dead here (my friends that I ask for any prayer from are not dead - not to mention that I would never ask anyone for prayer in the way many of the prayers to the saints are written and said) We are not to communicate with the dead. There is no communication between them and us.

Deuteronomy 18:10
Quote

Let no one be found among you who.....consults the dead.

Isaiah 8:19
Quote

...Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?


God has already said it. I will pray for you Catholic Soldier that you receive God's grace and you will see and know the Truth!

#18057 - Mon Oct 11, 2004 9:28 PM Re: Material Witness..icons and the Incarnation [Re: janean]  
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Janean,

I thank you for your concern, but you made a mistake and I must call you on it.

However strongly you feel that our petition to the saints is wrong, taking scriptures out of context is also wrong.

In both of your cited scriptures, God was specifically dealing with witchcraft. In witchcraft, the spirits of dead relatives are conjured, that they may have dialogue with the surviving relatives. (keep in mind that dialogue is a 2 way conversation) Because, as you correctly stated, the dead are shut off from this world, the "dead" that appear are actually clever and talented demons. And so, witchcraft is actually men, who are created in God's image, consulting and depending on (even worshipping) Satan, instead of God whom we're created to worship. This is an abomination before the Lord. (Lev 20:6)

In our petition to the saints, we ask, not expecting any response. Our desire is that our fervent prayers may ever be before the Lord, and this is exactly what happens.


I will be writing a post explaining the Catholic position on this subject soon, but I don't relish the battle that will ensue. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/uhoh.gif" alt="" />

In fact, there are really no scriptures that oppose this practice, and here protestants are at a loss. This puts you in a tough spot because you are left only with a strong feeling that there's something inappropriate about it.

But please, don't twist the scriptures to wring something out of it that isn't there. God's Word is sacred and holy, and we must treat it with reverent care. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for your prayers, I'm a lonely soldier far away from his family.

"Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

catholicsoldier <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/takethat.gif" alt="" />

#18058 - Tue Oct 12, 2004 6:30 AM Re: Material Witness..icons and the Incarnation [Re: catholicsoldier]  

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In fact, there are really no scriptures that oppose this practice, and here protestants are at a loss. This puts you in a tough spot because you are left only with a strong feeling that there's something inappropriate about it.

That is a great point, breaking from Roman strong-arm Christianity isn't spoken against in Scripture so it is also allowed? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Do we really want this to be the rule?

God bless,

william

#18059 - Tue Oct 12, 2004 7:33 AM Re: Material Witness..icons and the Incarnation  
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William,

"Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ!"

I did not mean to imply that we are justified in all actions where specific prohibitions are lacking. In fact prayer to the saints are very scriptural, sir, and as I have afore stated, I will demonstrate this point in my next article.

Life is hard. God is good. Heaven is sure.

catholicsoldier <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/takethat.gif" alt="" />

#18060 - Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:05 AM Re: Material Witness..icons and the Incarnation [Re: catholicsoldier]  

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Most excellent. I have been waiting for years for an example or a statement allowing prayer to dead folks from God's Word.


God bless,

william

#18061 - Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:24 AM Re: Material Witness..icons and the Incarnation  
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averagefellar said:
Or, how about, Americanized Christianity as a whole? The current ECUSA issue is just at the forefront.


God bless,

william


Indeed!


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#18062 - Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:36 PM Re: Material Witness..icons and the Incarnation [Re: catholicsoldier]  
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Because, as you correctly stated, the dead are shut off from this world, the "dead" that appear are actually clever and talented demons.



That's right. And might that explain the following experiences of many Catholics - stigmata, apperitions of Mary and other saints, the incorruptible bodies of several dead saints (there is actually a really good website with pictures of all of these - interesting), visions and other questionable experiences by Catholic mystics, etc. etc.?

And those clever demons come as light. The light SEEMS good, but it's not.

Well that's enough for me here. I'm doing this <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Banghead.gif" alt="" /> and you are doing this <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Banghead.gif" alt="" /> too.

#18063 - Thu Oct 14, 2004 1:38 AM Re: Material Witness..icons and the Incarnation [Re: janean]  
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Not to mention the works of Anne Catherine Emmeriche. Or should I say Saint Anne?

Tom

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