Donations for the month of September


We have received a total of $70 in donations towards our goal of $175.


Don't want to use PayPal? Go HERE


Search

Featured Member
Registered: Saturday, December 7, 2013
Posts: 34
Forum Stats
787 Members
30 Forums
5877 Topics
47220 Posts

Max Online: 41 @ Saturday, June 30, 2012 7:54 AM
Top Posters
Pilgrim 13347
J_Edwards 4843
Tom 3902
Wes 3553
chestnutmare 2476
CovenantInBlood 2375
MarieP 2311
RJ_ 2288
John_C 1903
gotribe 1767
Top Posters (30 Days)
Pilgrim 23
Tom 16
rstrats 10
Robin 7
chestnutmare 5
John_C 3
jerrybarry24 1
calvin 1
Recent Posts
Justification: Its Immediate and and Only Ground, ...
by Pilgrim
Today at 07:18 AM
Belief a Choice?
by Pilgrim
Saturday, September 27, 2014 10:36 AM
Matthew 12:40
by rstrats
Friday, September 26, 2014 7:09 AM
Regeneration Conversation Revisited
by Tom
Thursday, September 25, 2014 9:52 PM
Scripture Inherency
by Tom
Sunday, September 14, 2014 5:22 PM
The death of Jesus
by Pilgrim
Saturday, September 13, 2014 11:12 AM
Page 2 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
Hop to:
#18253 - Sunday, October 10, 2004 1:12 PM Re: Wicked Baptists [Re: Peter]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Easy. Because paedobaptists do not deny professors baptism. We uphold it for adults. We just don't deny children due to an inability to give that "credible profession".


God bless,

william

Top
#18254 - Sunday, October 10, 2004 2:06 PM Re: Wicked Baptists [Re: gnarley]
Peter Offline
Old Hand

Registered: Tuesday, August 31, 2004
Posts: 1020
Loc: USA
Quote:
gnarley said:
In all sincerity, what scripture is used to teach infant baptism?


Could we please not degenerate into that again. The subject at hand is the wickedness or lack there of Baptist for not baptizing infants yet allowing them to hear the gospel preached. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo

Top
#18255 - Sunday, October 10, 2004 2:07 PM Re: Wicked Baptists
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13348
Loc: NH, USA
Quote:
averagefellar asks:
Who decides what is "universal" because certainly one position is in grave error denying the command of scripture.

Of a truth, the historic Evangelical Creeds; Nicene, Athanasian and Chalcedon have been accepted as universal and binding as to the most basic fundamentals of the Christian faith. As a biblical Calvinist, I also include the Five Solas. In other words, any type of synergistic soteriology is to be rejected and deemed non-Christian. As to the second part of your question, re: "the command of scripture", I have not been able to find any command that specifically demands that infants be baptized. The doctrine of paedobaptism is one based upon solid inference, i.e., the covenantal structure which God established from the beginning is continuitous and which has always included the infants of believers.

Quote:
Either scripture teaches it, or it does not, neither being a mere "opinion".

The problem is that there is no agreement as to what the Scripture actually teaches concerning baptism. And since it is not a matter of salvation, unless of course, one holds that salvation is dependent upon baptism to any degree, one would be hard pressed to present an infallible, inerrant argument for what Scripture teaches absolutely. Let each be convinced in his/her own mind. Personally, I do believe that Credobaptism is erroneous. I have made a defense for paedobaptism for over 30 years. But I will NOT summarily exclude Baptists from the household of faith. Unfortunately many on both sides of the divide have and continue to do this because, IMHO, they put far too much importance on this sacrament/ordinance.

Quote:
However, I would posit that those who created the division are guilty of so much more than over-defending. Simply stated, the baptist schism is exactly that.

Be that as it may, if Baptists want to maintain this schism, let them do so. For we all must stand before the judgment seat and give an account for those things which we held to be true, taught others the same and what things we lived out while on this earth. I cannot bind a man's conscience. Doubtless, there will be shown on that day that I have held errors in doctrine, no less than any other individual. The answer to the problem of how to deal with error/heresy in the Church is one which every age, denomination, church and individual has had to deal with from the beginning. I certainly don't have the definitive answer as to how to deal with each and every item of doctrine perfectly as the Lord would have me to do so. Nor do I believe anyone else does either. Thus, there have been and always will be different degrees of latitude, tolerance and discipline among men. For confessional churches, this task is far easier than for those which are non-confessional.

What I do know is that no man is given the ability nor responsibility to sort out the tares from the wheat. All that is given is a temporal judgment. I leave it therefore to your own conscience as to how these things should be practiced. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,
_________________________


simul iustus et peccator


Top
#18256 - Sunday, October 10, 2004 4:18 PM Re: Wicked Baptists [Re: Pilgrim]
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life

Registered: Sunday, April 8, 2001
Posts: 3902
Loc: Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Quote:
Pilgrim said:
Quote:
Either scripture teaches it, or it does not, neither being a mere "opinion".

The problem is that there is no agreement as to what the Scripture actually teaches concerning baptism. And since it is not a matter of salvation, unless of course, one holds that salvation is dependent upon baptism to any degree, one would be hard pressed to present an infallible, inerrant argument for what Scripture teaches absolutely. Let each be convinced in his/her own mind. Personally, I do believe that Credobaptism is erroneous. I have made a defense for paedobaptism for over 30 years. But I will NOT summarily exclude Baptists from the household of faith. Unfortunately many on both sides of the divide have and continue to do this because, IMHO, they put far too much importance on this sacrament/ordinance.

Quote:
However, I would posit that those who created the division are guilty of so much more than over-defending. Simply stated, the baptist schism is exactly that.

Be that as it may, if Baptists want to maintain this schism, let them do so. For we all must stand before the judgment seat and give an account for those things which we held to be true, taught others the same and what things we lived out while on this earth. I cannot bind a man's conscience. Doubtless, there will be shown on that day that I have held errors in doctrine, no less than any other individual. The answer to the problem of how to deal with error/heresy in the Church is one which every age, denomination, church and individual has had to deal with from the beginning. I certainly don't have the definitive answer as to how to deal with each and every item of doctrine perfectly as the Lord would have me to do so. Nor do I believe anyone else does either. Thus, there have been and always will be different degrees of latitude, tolerance and discipline among men. For confessional churches, this task is far easier than for those which are non-confessional.

What I do know is that no man is given the ability nor responsibility to sort out the tares from the wheat. All that is given is a temporal judgment. I leave it therefore to your own conscience as to how these things should be practiced. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,


Thankyou Pilgrim

As you know I am a credo-Baptist, yet I believe as you stated: "Unfortunately many on both sides of the divide have and continue to do this because, IMHO, they put far too much importance on this sacrament/ordinance."

I am a credo-Baptist because I genuinely believe it is biblical, however should I ever see the matter differently, I will change my belief on the matter.

I believe there is a Latin saying that among other things means "always reforming". Forgive me if I am wrong on that, but I think you know what I mean.

Tom


Edited by Tom (Sunday, October 10, 2004 5:21 PM)

Top
#18257 - Sunday, October 10, 2004 4:43 PM Re: Wicked Baptists [Re: Peter]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Boanerges said:
Speratus: First you haven't proven the Baptists deny baptism as an efficacious means of grace.

Second: Your reasoning regarding the wickedness of baptists is still flawed. Do not Lutherans when they have catechumins that are not infants and not baptized baptize them after they have completed their studies and joined the Church? Why do they not baptize them first and then continue with their instruction? Are they not just as "wicked as the Baptists?


1. Their confession proves it:

Quote:
Baptism is an ordinance of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, to be unto the party baptized, a sign of his fellowship with him, in his death and resurrection; of his being engrafted into him; of remission of sins; and of giving up into God, through Jesus Christ, to live and walk in newness of life.


1689 London Baptist Confession

Why did the baptists alter the WCF to remove any reference to baptism as a means of grace?

2. Again, I did not say Baptists were wicked. I assume trinitarian Baptists are Christians. I said they were acting wickedly by withholding baptism.
I am not aware of any Lutheran pastor who withholds baptism from anyone who desires it simply because they have not completed a course of instruction on the Lutheran Church. I agree that any pastor who withholds baptism in that circumstance is behaving wickedly.

Top
#18258 - Sunday, October 10, 2004 7:47 PM Re: Wicked Baptists
BibleRon Offline
Newbie

Registered: Saturday, November 29, 2003
Posts: 40
Loc: Round Lake Beach, Ill. 60073
Then what you are saying is that Baptists, like myself,take their doctrine on Baptism strictly from the scriptures. And you call me "wicked"?
_________________________
Protected by the power of God Through Faith........1Peter1:5

Top
#18259 - Sunday, October 10, 2004 7:58 PM Re: Wicked Baptists [Re: BibleRon]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Nice to meet you BibleRon. I'm a paedobaptist and I get it from scripture as well. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


God bless,

william

Top
#18260 - Sunday, October 10, 2004 10:25 PM Re: Wicked Baptists
Peter Offline
Old Hand

Registered: Tuesday, August 31, 2004
Posts: 1020
Loc: USA
Quote:
speratus said:
1. Their confession proves it:

Quote:
Baptism is an ordinance of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, to be unto the party baptized, a sign of his fellowship with him, in his death and resurrection; of his being engrafted into him; of remission of sins; and of giving up into God, through Jesus Christ, to live and walk in newness of life.


1689 London Baptist Confession

Why did the baptists alter the WCF to remove any reference to baptism as a means of grace?

2. Again, I did not say Baptists were wicked. I assume trinitarian Baptists are Christians. I said they were acting wickedly by withholding baptism.
I am not aware of any Lutheran pastor who withholds baptism from anyone who desires it simply because they have not completed a course of instruction on the Lutheran Church. I agree that any pastor who withholds baptism in that circumstance is behaving wickedly.


I suggest that if your going to make base accusations regarding the English Baptist that wrote that confession you further your education by reading the Catechism that went with that confession. A portion that I shall reprint here:

Quote:
Q. 95. What are the outward and ordinary means whereby Christ communicates to us the benefits of redemption?

A. The outward and ordinary means whereby Christ communicates to us the benefits of redemption are His ordinances, especially the Word, Baptism, the Lord's Supper and Prayer; all which are made effectual to the elect for salvation. (Rom. 10:17; James 1:18; 1 Cor. 3:5; Acts 14:1; 2:41,42)



Q. 96. How is the Word made effectual to salvation?

A. The Spirit of God makes the reading, but especially the preaching of the Word an effectual means of convincing and converting sinners, and of building them up in holiness and comfort, through faith unto salvation. (Ps. 119:11,18; 1 Thess. 1:6; 1 Peter 2:1,2; Rom. 1:16; Ps. 19:7)



Q. 97. How is the Word to be read and heard that it may become effectual to salvation?

A. That the Word may become effectual to salvation we must attend thereunto with diligence, preparation and prayer, receive it in faith and love, lay it up in our hearts and practice it in our lives. (Prov. 8:34; 1 Peter 2:1,2; 1 Tim. 4:13; Heb. 2:1,3; Heb. 4:2; 2 Thess. 2:10; Ps. 119:11; James 1:21,25)



Q. 98. How do Baptism and the Lord's Supper become effectual means of salvation?

A. Baptism and the Lord's Supper become effectual means of salvation, not from any virtue in them or in him that administers them, but only by the blessing of Christ and the working of His Spirit in them that by faith receive them. (1 Peter 3:21; 1 Cor. 3:6,7; 1 Cor. 12:13)
Benjamin Keach's Catechism

Second your lack of awareness doesn't demonstrate what is being done. I suggest you ask the Reverend of the church where your worship what is the normative practice for adult catechumens Whether they are baptized once they have been confirmed. Or if they are first baptized and then confirmed after finishing the catechism course. Or perhaps you can show from the Triglot Concordia the proper method for a non-baptized adult convert.
_________________________
Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo

Top
#18261 - Sunday, October 10, 2004 10:57 PM Re: Wicked Baptists [Re: BibleRon]
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13348
Loc: NH, USA
Quote:
BibleRon said:
Then what you are saying is that Baptists, like myself,take their doctrine on Baptism strictly from the scriptures. And you call me "wicked"?

In all fairness, I think that speratus has made it clear that he wants to distinguish between labeling Credobaptists as "wicked" and their refusal to baptize infants as an "wicked act". He has denied the former and affirmed only the latter. Personally, as you should know from reading my few replies in this thread, I disagree with his assessment that it is "wicked" (a gross sin) to neglect the baptism of infants.

Please, let's not go off on a tangent here, especially on something which has been already clarified by the one who had made a statement which some of us find offensive and unwarranted. And, let's also remember, that this is simply his opinion and may not have any real substance to it. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,
_________________________


simul iustus et peccator


Top
#18262 - Monday, October 11, 2004 4:02 AM Re: Wicked Baptists [Re: Pilgrim]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Boanerges,

Quote:
I suggest that if your going to make base accusations regarding the English Baptist that wrote that confession you further your education by reading the Catechism that went with that confession.


I apologize to the English Baptists and this board. I am here to learn and I am learning that the differences between the Lutheran, Reformed, and Reformed Baptist views of baptism are far less than I had assumed by simply reading their bare confessions. Do modern Reformed Baptists still hold to the Catechism that accompanied the 1689 London Baptist Confession?

Quote:
Second your lack of awareness doesn't demonstrate what is being done. I suggest you ask the Reverend of the church where your worship what is the normative practice for adult catechumens Whether they are baptized once they have been confirmed. Or if they are first baptized and then confirmed after finishing the catechism course. Or perhaps you can show from the Triglot Concordia the proper method for a non-baptized adult convert.


Adults are baptized unto the Holy catholic Church not the Lutheran Church. Adults who have been instructed are confirmed into the Lutheran Church not the Holy catholic Church. Baptism is a means of grace instituted by Christ; confirmation is a rite instituted by man.

Quote:
Confirmation and Extreme Unction are rites received from the Fathers which not even the Church requires as necessary to salvation, because they do not have God's command. Therefore it is not useless to distinguish these rites from the former, which have God's express command and a clear promise of grace.


Apology to the Augsburg Confession, Of the Number and Use of the Sacraments, Concordia Triglotta

The baptismal creed is the Apostles Creed (trinitarian statement). The confirmation creed is the Book of Concord (although many Lutheran churches erroneously list only Luther's Small Catechism).

Most Lutheran pastors, for convenience sake, combine adult baptism and confirmation into one rite. IMHO, that is a mistake but not prohibited by scripture. However, if an adult who confesses the Apostles Creed were to ask for immediate baptism, it would be a gross sin for the pastor to refuse him (just as it is a gross sin for a pastor to refuse to baptize children). Pastors have been called by God to baptize not to confirm adults into the Lutheran Church or any other visible church.

Quote:
For] The Gospel assigns to those who preside over churches the command to teach the Gospel to remit sins, to administer the Sacraments and besides jurisdiction, namely, the command to excommunicate those whose crimes are known, and again to absolve those who repent.

61] And by the confession of all, even of the adversaries, it is clear that this power by divine right is common to all who preside over churches, whether they are called pastors, or elders, or bishops.


Of the Power and Jurisdiction of Bishops, Concordia Triglotta


Edited by speratus (Monday, October 11, 2004 5:55 AM)

Top
#18263 - Monday, October 11, 2004 4:16 PM Re: Wicked Baptists
Peter Offline
Old Hand

Registered: Tuesday, August 31, 2004
Posts: 1020
Loc: USA
Speratus:

Baptists being an independent lot will use or not use whatever suits them at the time. Keach's Catechism when wrote was for those Baptists that aligned themselves with the 1689 confession. I myself prefer to use it when I teach this confession but others prefer to use Spurgeon's which is fine but I don't think it does justice to the 1689 confession. That is my personal opinion.
_________________________
Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo

Top
#18264 - Tuesday, October 12, 2004 5:38 AM Re: Wicked Baptists
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
averagefellar said:
Easy. Because paedobaptists do not deny professors baptism. We uphold it for adults. We just don't deny children due to an inability to give that "credible profession".


God bless,

william


Does that mean that the Reformed churchly rite of infant baptism does not include a profession of faith?

Top
#18265 - Tuesday, October 12, 2004 6:44 AM Re: Wicked Baptists
Anonymous
Unregistered


In its first prayer book of 1549 (which the American Lutherans followed rather closely in their rite), the Anglican Church did include infant profession of faith:

Quote:
Then shall the priest demaunde of the childe (which shalbe first Baptized) these questions blowing: first naming the childe, and saying.

N. Doest thou forsake the devill and all his workes?
Aunswere. I forsake them.
Minister. Doest thou forsake the vaine pompe, and glory of the worlde, with all the covetouse desyres of the same?
Aunswere. I forsake them.
Minister. Doest thou forsake the carnall desyres of the flesh, so that thou wilt not folowe, nor be ledde by them?
Aunswere. I forsake them.
Minister. Doest thou beleve in God the father almightie, maker of heaven and earth?
Aunswere. I beleve.
Minister. Doest thou beleve in Jesus Christe his only begotten sonne our Lorde, and that he was conceyved by the holy gost, borne of the virgin Mary, that he suffered under Poncius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buryed, that he went downe into hell, and also dyd ryse agayne the thyrde daye; that he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the ryght hande of God the father almighty: And from thence shall come agayne at the ende of the worlde, to judge the quicke and the dead: Doest thou beleve this?
Aunswere. I beleve.
Minister. Doest thou beleve in the holy gost, the holy Catholike Churche, the communion of sainctes, remission, of Sinnes, resurreccion of the fleshe, and everlastyng lyfe after death?
Aunswere. I beleve.
Minister. What doest thou desyre?
Aunswere. Baptisme.
Minister. Wilt thou be baptized?
Aunswere. I wyll.

Top
#18266 - Tuesday, October 12, 2004 6:45 AM Re: Wicked Baptists
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm assuming much for others here, but generally, paedobaptists accept the faith of the parents for the entire household. Adult converts are still required to profess their belief prior to baptism. The "age of confirmation" or whenever one becomes an age when they will need to either profess their faith prior to baptism or confirm their faith to partake of communion differs among various groups.


God bless,

william

Top
#18267 - Tuesday, October 12, 2004 6:49 AM Re: Wicked Baptists
Anonymous
Unregistered


We use the prayer book of 1928. My eight year old daughter had to answer similar questions at her baptism last August. However, the questions are for those that could answer, infants simply are not in that category.


God bless,

william

Top
Page 2 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >



Who's Online
0 registered (), 17 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
samfromindia, DAVERK, Predestined, dowryh15, Ian Groom
787 Registered Users
Shout Box

October
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
(Views)Popular Topics
Is man required to "choose" in order to be saved? 454870
...The people miscalled Antinomians ? 359871
Westminster Larger Catechism 331941
The importance of going to church 259221
Roman Catholicism and salvation 253972
Double predestination 242084
"Christ died in a general way for all."? 220956
Gospel truth 194824
Creation 176476
Continuity in Old and NT 144134