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#18268 - Tuesday, October 12, 2004 8:49 AM Re: Wicked Baptists
Anonymous
Unregistered


Whether 8 days or 8 years, traditional Anglican/Lutheran liturgies use the same questions which assume the child has personal faith.

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#18269 - Tuesday, October 12, 2004 11:23 AM Re: Wicked Baptists
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13324
Loc: NH, USA
Quote:
speratus said:
Whether 8 days or 8 years, traditional Anglican/Lutheran liturgies use the same questions which assume the child has personal faith.

This is an inside Lutheran joke, right? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> You certainly can't be serious that one would expect an eight-day old infant could comprehend those questions, never mind respond to them?

Now.... the matter of assumed faith has been thrashed on this Board on many previous occasions. And those who hold to "presumptive regeneration", which you MUST if you presume faith, since faith flows from and is consequent of regeneration, have not been able to give a convincing defense for this belief. The typical apologetic is that the child is in covenant with God/Christ due to the faith of the parents. Is this what you base your presumption upon as well? If not, could you explain what warrant you have for presuming the regeneration/faith and thus salvation of an infant brought forth for baptism? And are there any restrictions as to what infants are qualified for baptism?

Thanks!
_________________________


simul iustus et peccator


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#18270 - Tuesday, October 12, 2004 12:23 PM Re: Wicked Baptists
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have personally never seen an infant asked questions.


God bless,

william

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#18271 - Tuesday, October 12, 2004 3:10 PM Re: Wicked Baptists
Anonymous
Unregistered


Pilgrim,

The Anglican church is a special case for obvious reasons. Does your church, for example, pose faith questions to children or adults being baptized?

Quote:
And those who hold to "presumptive regeneration", which you MUST if you presume faith, since faith flows from and is consequent of regeneration, have not been able to give a convincing defense for this belief.


No, they occur at the same time. I found Luther's defense in his sermon on infant baptism quite convincing.

Quote:
But let us examine their reason why they do not think children believe. They say, because they have not attained to reason they cannot hear God's Word; but where God's Word is not heard there can be no faith. Romans 10:17: "Belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." Tell me is this Christian to judge of God's works by our thinking, and say, Children have not attained to reason, therefore they cannot believe? How if through this very reason you have already departed from faith, and the children come to faith through their unreason? Dear friend, what good does reason do for faith and the Word of God? Is it not reason which resists in the highest degree faith and the Word of God, so that nobody can come to faith by means of reason? Reason will not endure God's Word unless it is first blinded and disgraced. Man must first die to reason and become, as it were, a fool, and even as unreasonable and unintelligent as a little child, if he is to become a believer and receive the grace of God; as Christ says in Matthew 18:3: "Except ye turn, and become as little children, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven." How often does Christ hold before us that we must become children and fools, and condemn reason?

37. Tell me also, what kind of reason had the little children whom Christ embraced and blessed, and upon whom he bestowed the kingdom of heaven? Were they not still without reason? Why does he command to bring them to him and then bless them? Where did they get the faith which makes them children of the kingdom of heaven? Nay, just because they are without reason and foolish, they are better prepared to believe than adults and those possessed of reason, because reason is always in the way and with its large head is not willing to push through the narrow door. One must not look upon reason or its works when faith and God's work are under consideration. Here God alone works and reason is dead, blind and, compared to this work, an unreasonable block, in order that the Scripture may stand, which says: "God is wonderful in his saints;" and: "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways," Isaiah 55:9.


Quote:
The typical apologetic is that the child is in covenant with God/Christ due to the faith of the parents. Is this what you base your presumption upon as well?


Could you suggest some articles to help me understand this concept of covenant baptism? It seems contrary to justification by faith alone. As Luther says in the same sermon:

Quote:
First we must let the foundation stand firm and sure, that nobody will be saved by the faith or righteousness of another, but only by his own; and on the other hand nobody will be condemned for the unbelief or sins of another, but for his own unbelief; as the Gospel says clearly and distinctly in Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be condemned." And Romans 1:17: "The righteous shall live by faith." And John 3:6-18: "Whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already."


Quote:
And are there any restrictions as to what infants are qualified for baptism?


They must be brought to baptism by the parents (Acts 2:39) which does suggest a family relationship. But does their parents faith save them? What if their parents don't believe? Is there no covenant baptism in that case?

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#18272 - Tuesday, October 12, 2004 5:21 PM Re: Wicked Baptists
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13324
Loc: NH, USA
Quote:
I found Luther's defense in his sermon on infant baptism quite convincing.

The quote you included from Luther makes no mention of "infants" but rather "children". But even so, you once again state: "No, they [regeneration and faith?] occur at the same time." Now this appears to be in contrast to that which you have stated elsewhere; that faith may follow regeneration by a considerable amount of time. There is obviously some confusion here. So, let me try and get to the heart of the matter once again by asking you: "Does regeneration occur infallibly, without exception, at baptism . . . particularly in the case of infants/children?" And, "Does faith occur immediately consequent to regeneration?"

Quote:
Could you suggest some articles to help me understand this concept of covenant baptism? It seems contrary to justification by faith alone.

Covenant Baptism . . . what is written there is NOT what I hold to be true. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Quote:
They must be brought to baptism by the parents (Acts 2:39) which does suggest a family relationship. But does their parents faith save them? What if their parents don't believe? Is there no covenant baptism in that case?

But I wanted to know if you hold that any infant that is brought forward to be baptized must have at least one believing parent? Or... can anyone bring their child(ren) to be baptized?
  • 1) I hold that justification is by grace through the faith of an individual. There is no such thing as a "proxy faith"; the faith of one cannot be applied to another.
  • 2) My view says that if there is not at least one professing/believing parent, then baptism is not to be administered to their children. For, there is no "covenant baptism", i.e., the promise is to believers and their seed alone, should they be called of God and believe, and not to the world at large.


In His Grace,
_________________________


simul iustus et peccator


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#18273 - Tuesday, October 12, 2004 7:19 PM Re: Wicked Baptists [Re: Pilgrim]
MHeath Offline
Addict

Registered: Monday, March 17, 2003
Posts: 453
Loc: Michigan, USA
Forgive me for butting in here, but I only want to ask one question, then I will leave the rest of this heady discussion to all of you.

Are you saying that only children of believers are going to be saved? That "the promise" is only to children of believers period? That if there is a couple, both of whom are NOT believers, that their children will absolutely not be saved?

Michele

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#18274 - Tuesday, October 12, 2004 9:56 PM Re: Wicked Baptists [Re: MHeath]
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13324
Loc: NH, USA
Michele,

I would answer your question(s), but I'm not sure who you are addressing it to? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" /> I'm going to assume that you are wanting "speratus" to respond as surely you are knowledgeable of what I believe on this subject. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,
_________________________


simul iustus et peccator


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#18275 - Tuesday, October 12, 2004 10:34 PM Re: Wicked Baptists [Re: Pilgrim]
Anonymous
Unregistered


pilgrim,

Quote:
Does regeneration occur infallibly, without exception, at baptism . . . particularly in the case of infants/children?


Regeneration is not infallible. But, as Luther says in his sermon, the baptism of children is more certain than that of adults:

Quote:
I think, if any baptism is certain, the baptism of children is most certain, because of the Word of Christ, where he commands to bring them, whereas the adults come of themselves. In adults there may be deception because of the reason that is manifest; but in children there can be no deception, because of their hidden reason in whom Christ works his blessing even as he has bidden them to be brought to himself. It is a glorious word and not to be treated lightly that he commands us to bring the children to him and rebukes those who forbid it.


Quote:
Does faith occur immediately consequent to regeneration?


Regeneration is the giving of faith and vice versa.

Quote:
But I wanted to know if you hold that any infant that is brought forward to be baptized must have at least one believing parent? Or... can anyone bring their child(ren) to be baptized?

1) I hold that justification is by grace through the faith of an individual. There is no such thing as a "proxy faith"; the faith of one cannot be applied to another.

2) My view says that if there is not at least one professing/believing parent, then baptism is not to be administered to their children. For, there is no "covenant baptism", i.e., the promise is to believers and their seed alone, should they be called of God and believe, and not to the world at large.


Luther, in the same sermon, says that ministers should not baptize recklessly.

Quote:
All this I say in order that one may not baptize recklessly, as they do who even administer it with the deliberate knowledge that it will be of no effect or benefit to the person receiving it. For therein the baptizers sin, because they knowingly use God's sacrament and Word in vain, or at least have the consciousness that it is neither intended nor able to effect anything; which is an altogether unworthy use of the sacrament and a temptation and blasphemy of God. For that is not administering the sacrament, but making a mockery of it. But if the person baptized denies and does not believe, you have done right anyhow, and have administered the true sacrament with the good consciousness that it ought to be beneficial.


Faith alone apprehends the promise of infant baptism. So, it would be reckless, indeed, to baptize a child brought by a parent who believes that baptism is just an ordinance to be obeyed or a mystical ceremony that saves by the outward act.

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#18276 - Tuesday, October 12, 2004 10:40 PM Re: Wicked Baptists [Re: MHeath]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
MHeath said:
Forgive me for butting in here, but I only want to ask one question, then I will leave the rest of this heady discussion to all of you.

Are you saying that only children of believers are going to be saved? That "the promise" is only to children of believers period? That if there is a couple, both of whom are NOT believers, that their children will absolutely not be saved?

Michele


Before their children are baptized, the parents should be taught the promise of baptism.

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#18277 - Tuesday, October 12, 2004 11:47 PM Re: Wicked Baptists
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13324
Loc: NH, USA
speratus,

I'm afraid I am becoming more and more confused in trying to understand what you actually believe concerning baptism, regeneration, faith and justification. I'll try but one more time to ask pointed questions in the hope that I can get some cogent answers to help dispel my confusion.

Quote:
Regeneration is not infallible. But, as Luther says in his sermon, the baptism of children is more certain than that of adults:

Okay, what exactly does the phrase, more certain than that of adults mean? For something to be "certain" it is generally understood to mean "definite". So how can something be MORE certain? And what is it that is "more certain"? Is Luther saying that salvation is "more certain"? If not... WHAT is?

Quote:
Regeneration is the giving of faith and vice versa.

So is this Reformed Arminianism or Arminian Reformed? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> "Vice versa" is an impossibility as it is impossible that regeneration is instrumental in producing faith AND faith is instrumental in bringing about regeneration. Either one needs to be made alive (Eph 2:1-5) in order to believe. OR... one needs to believe in order to be made alive. Which is it?

Quote:
Faith alone apprehends <span style="background-color:yellow">the promise of infant baptism</span>. So, it would be reckless, indeed, to baptize a child brought by a parent who believes that baptism is just an ordinance to be obeyed or a mystical ceremony that saves by the outward act.

I'm not familiar with any biblical text which speaks of "faith apprehending the promise of infant baptism"? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> My Bible speaks everywhere of faith apprehending the Lord Christ but not baptism of any kind, whether adult or infant. Can you direct me to the relevant passage(s) please? Secondly, what exactly is it that is "promised" in infant baptism?

In His Grace,
_________________________


simul iustus et peccator


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#18278 - Wednesday, October 13, 2004 12:36 AM Re: Wicked Baptists [Re: Pilgrim]
MHeath Offline
Addict

Registered: Monday, March 17, 2003
Posts: 453
Loc: Michigan, USA
no, I was actually speaking to you Pilgrim. I don't know everything you believe about infant baptism.

Michele

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#18279 - Wednesday, October 13, 2004 6:40 AM Re: Wicked Baptists [Re: Pilgrim]
Anonymous
Unregistered


pilgrim,

I seem to be teaching more than I am learning again.

Quote:
Okay, what exactly does the phrase, more certain than that of adults mean? For something to be "certain" it is generally understood to mean "definite". So how can something be MORE certain? And what is it that is "more certain"? Is Luther saying that salvation is "more certain"? If not... WHAT is?


Luther makes it clear that there is no infallible baptismal regeneration when he says, "if any baptism is certain." Why are Lutherans constantly accused of holding a belief we reject both here and in our confessions?

Quote:
So is this Reformed Arminianism or Arminian Reformed? "Vice versa" is an impossibility as it is impossible that regeneration is instrumental in producing faith AND faith is instrumental in bringing about regeneration. Either one needs to be made alive (Eph 2:1-5) in order to believe. OR... one needs to believe in order to be made alive. Which is it?


This would be impossible if there were any cooperation by man in either regeneration or producing faith. But God declares the sinner righteous and, at the same time, regenerates, gives faith, enlightens, etc. Please show me where the Arminianism is in that statement.

Quote:
I'm not familiar with any biblical text which speaks of "faith apprehending the promise of infant baptism"? My Bible speaks everywhere of faith apprehending the Lord Christ but not baptism of any kind, whether adult or infant. Can you direct me to the relevant passage(s) please? Secondly, what exactly is it that is "promised" in infant baptism?


Salvation through faith alone. The passage is Mark 16;16. To apprehend the promise of baptism is to apprehend "that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus." Phil. 3:12. Faith looks to Jesus Christ alone through His Word alone.


Edited by speratus (Wednesday, October 13, 2004 6:47 AM)

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#18280 - Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:09 PM Re: Wicked Baptists
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13324
Loc: NH, USA
speratus,

Would you kindly reread my previous reply and if you so desire answer the questions asked there. I really can't see where you have done so yet.

In His Grace,
_________________________


simul iustus et peccator


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#18281 - Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:21 PM Re: Wicked Baptists [Re: MHeath]
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13324
Loc: NH, USA
Quote:
MHeath asks:
Are you saying that only children of believers are going to be saved?

Absolutely not. I've never even hinted such a thing. In my estimation, the majority of those who have been saved throughout history have not come from families where the parents were believers. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Quote:
That "the promise" is only to children of believers period?

Again, I do not hold to any such thing. However, what is true is that God extends to believing parents this promise; that all of their children who, like themselves, are called of God and believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ will receive the remission of sins. Since the means of grace is or should be existent in believing households, then the opportunity for salvation is far greater than in those which are not.

Quote:
That if there is a couple, both of whom are NOT believers, that their children will absolutely not be saved?

Once again, I have never suggested any such thing. But what is true is that in a family where the parents are not believers, the means of grace, e.g., prayers offered in behalf of the children, family Bible teaching, devotions, worship, corporate worship, fellowship of other believers, etc., will not be present. And thus without someone outside the family bringing the gospel and a living example of godliness to the children, they cannot be saved. (Rom 10:14-17)

In His Grace,
_________________________


simul iustus et peccator


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#18282 - Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:40 PM Re: Wicked Baptists [Re: Pilgrim]
MHeath Offline
Addict

Registered: Monday, March 17, 2003
Posts: 453
Loc: Michigan, USA
Quote:
And thus without someone outside the family bringing the gospel and a living example of godliness to the children, they cannot be saved. (Rom 10:14-17)


I agree with you up til this point. I think maybe you meant to say that they simply will not hear the gospel from their immediate influence? They can be saved because it is the drawing of the Father to Jesus Christ that brings anyone.. whether from a Christian home or not.

Michele

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