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#18328 - Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:48 PM Re: That's all from me, folks. [Re: Henry]  

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Henry,

I agree that further discussion has become pointless. The right to judge doctrine has been taken away from the learned doctors of Reformed theology and has been given to all Christians when Christ says, "My sheep hear my voice." Give heed to Christ's voice, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved."

#18329 - Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:08 AM Re: Wicked Baptists [Re: Peter]  

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Quote
Boanerges said:
No as a reformed baptist I do not believe in baptismal regeneration Neither as you define it, nor as the LCMS defines it.
Quote
Baptismal Regeneration
Q. You teach, as did Martin Luther, that man is justified by grace alone, through faith alone. Yet I also read your position on baptism and it seems to me that you also teach baptismal regeneration. You clearly state that a person (infant) comes into the blessings of grace (salvation) through their baptism. How can this be if the scripture teaches that faith is the means of apprehending salvation? I may simply be misunderstanding what you are saying in the section on baptism, I hope I am. If not, then I must insist that there would then be no difference between the LCMS and the Roman Church on its view of justification and salvation. Please help me understand where I am misunderstanding you.

A. Lutherans believe that the Bible teaches that a person is saved by God's grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ. Baptism, we believe, is one of the miraculous means of grace (together with God's written and spoken Word) through which God creates and/or strengthens the gift of faith in a person's heart (see Matt. 28:18-20; Act. 2:38; John 3:5-7; Act. 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Titus 3:5-6; Gal. 3:26-27; Rom. 6:1-4; Col. 2:11-12; 1 Cor. 12:13).

Although we do not claim to understand how this happens or how it is possible, we believe (because of what the Bible says about baptism) that when an infant is baptized God creates faith in the heart of that infant. This faith cannot yet, of course, be expressed or articulated, yet it is real and present all the same (see e.g., 1 Peter 2:21; Acts 2:38-39; Titus 3:5-6; Matt. 18:6; Luke 1:15; 2 Tim. 3:15; Gal. 3:26-27; Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:11-12; 1 Cor. 12:13). This faith needs to be fed and nurtured by God's Word (Matt. 28:18-20), or it will die. Those who have been baptized, but who no longer believe, will not be saved. (By the same token, those who truly believe and yet have not had opportunity to be baptized [like, for example, the thief on the cross] will be saved.)
LCMS Baptismal Regeneration

Nor WELS or the ELS But hold to that what has been taught long ago that regeneration is the effectual application of Christ's redemption applied to us by the Holy Spirit. Doctrine of Regeneration Bill Ascol

See also:
Blessings of Grace section 4 J.L Dagg
Regeneration and Conversion by James P. Boyce
Regeneration-outline by Derek Gentle


As I've said before, Lutheranism is defined in the Book of Concord not synodical statements. Statements made by LCMS Q&A may or may not reflect the Lutheran symbols. In this case, an error was made,

Quote
Those who have been baptized, but who no longer believe, will not be saved.


This is clearly contrary to the confessions. The Holy Spirit works faith in baptism when it pleases God.

#18330 - Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:28 AM Re: I'm not tying regeneration to anything. [Re: Peter]  

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Boanerges,

Quote
But I am still willing to give you a chance here are the verses you have shown to us and claim they support your thesis regarding baptismal regeneration exegete one please.


Trying to prove baptismal regeneration is like trying to prove 2+2=4. Baptism saves (Mark 16:16; 1 Pet 3:21); baptism remits sins (Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16); ergo Baptism is a washing of regeneration (Titus 3:5).

#18331 - Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:30 AM Re: I'm not tying regeneration to anything.  

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This will probably be my final post on The Highway. I am here to learn not to teach. Everyone asks me questions but nobody answers my questions.

OK, you did answer my question on baptismal regeneration. And I appreciate your responses. But I did not receive an answer on the meaning of early Reformed confessions. My time is limited and I am simply not learning enough to justify continued participation.

Last edited by speratus; Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:49 AM.
#18332 - Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:52 PM Re: That's all from me, folks.  

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Quote
As I've said before, Lutheranism is defined in the Book of Concord not synodical statements. Statements made by LCMS Q&A may or may not reflect the Lutheran symbols. In this case, an error was made,


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Those who have been baptized, but who no longer believe, will not be saved.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



This is clearly contrary to the confessions. The Holy Spirit works faith in baptism when it pleases God.


But you don't have to believe me. You can read the Augsburg Confession for yourself:

Quote
For through the Word and Sacraments, as through instruments, the Holy Ghost is given, who works faith; where and when it pleases God, in them that hear the Gospel, to wit, that God, not for our own merits, but for Christ's sake, justifies those who believe that they are received into grace for Christ's sake.


The LCMS should be ashamed for allowing false teaching rubbish to appear on their website.

#18333 - Tue Oct 19, 2004 12:51 AM Re: That's all from me, folks.  

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Please ignore my previous post regarding The Highway. I have learned enough to justify continued participation. It came in the form of pilgrim's statement.

Quote
Regeneration is the secret, sovereign and sole act of the Holy Spirit in which a sinner is a recipient and of which is not comprehended at its occurence. Conversion is that response of a sinner who has been regenerated wherein he/she repents of sin and believes upon Christ unto justification.


While I, in no way, agree with pilgrim that justification involves a response by the regenerate, his statement does hightlight an error by certain "Lutherans". These Lutherans say they were regenerated when they were baptized. This answer is contrary to scripture and our confessions. The correct answer is that their regeneration occurred when it pleased God.

Last edited by speratus; Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:01 AM.
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