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Pilgrim
Pilgrim
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Re: Just war question [Re: rbnd] #18404
Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:05 PM
Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:05 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
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Pilgrim Offline

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Pilgrim  Offline

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rbnd,

As I stated originally, my participation in this thread, especially with its current direction, was done so with great reluctance. Your response would be one example why that reluctance is present.

Quote
rbnd wrote:
Galatians 6:10 - "As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith." - Yes, it does say, "especially unto them who are of the household of faith," and I am in full agreement. Call me a Pharisee if you will. I agree with God's Word wholeheartedly. The modern temptation within churches is to cut off the last part of the verse so that it simply reads, "As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men."

First of all, Gal 6:10 says to do good to "all men", particularly to fellow believers. No one, including me in anything I have written, would suggest that Christians be slighted of well-being. As I pointed out, the parable of the Good Samaritan does, however, point out the prejudices of some men to exclude those who are not as they; whether that similarity be in color, race, gender, economic status or religion. A Christian who dies for his faith is blessed and who will be ushered into the bosom of Christ. A non-Christian who dies faces immediate punishment and unspeakable torment. Should I not be concerned for the eternal destiny of those who are yet without Christ? BTW... I never called YOU a "Pharisee". What I wrote, and if you would carefully read my words, I spoke of a "Pharisaical mentality"; i.e., those who would help their "brethren" but refuse to help those who are not "one of them".

Quote
You also wrote:
Also, I believe a large percentage of the people being killed in Africa are Christians, being killed by the Moslems.

I would beg to differ with you most strongly and challenge you to present any evidence to substantiate this claim. My local Jehovah's Witness nemesis often makes similar claims saying that the vast majority of persecuted individuals throughout the world are those who are Jehovah's Witnesses; who according to him are being martyred by the 1000's daily. Were the estimated 7 million who were murdered by Hitler and his regime Christians? How about all those slaughtered by Mussolini? and Stalin? Are Christians to discount their deaths or to prevent such things from occurring again, simply because they are not "of the household of faith"? And what of the millions of unborn children who are murdered by abortionists and self-centered women, none of whom can be rightly said to be "of the household of faith"? Would I be correct to assume that the vast majority of the world, therefore, would not qualify for your aid.

You may choose to answer any of the above or abstain as you so desire. But I'm bowing out of this one as I deem it unprofitable to continue.

In His Grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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Re: Just war question [Re: Pilgrim] #18405
Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:36 AM
Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:36 AM
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Pilgrim,

First of all, I am amazed that you would continue to speak of someone as having a "Pharisaical mentality." Do you think I have a Pharisaical mentality simply because I expressed concern for the many persecuted Christians in China? That's what I'm hearing, because that was the main thing I was saying about the persecuted Christians there.

I was simply advocating that we remember to put into practice things such as are mentioned in the latter part of Galations 6:10, which reads, "As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith."

You wrote:

"I spoke of a "Pharisaical mentality"; i.e., those who would help their "brethren" but refuse to help those who are not "one of them"."

I have no idea who you are talking about. Who said anything about refusing to help those who are not "one of them?" You are battling a straw man.

One reason concern for the persecution of Christians in China was mentioned was, well, I assumed Christians elsewhere would be concerned as well. I didn't realize it was wrong to express that concern here.

As far as Africa is concerned, one large country that I was thinking of is Nigeria, where my brother-in-law is from, which is made up of Muslims in the north who fight against the Christians in the south. I don't believe Nigeria is the only country in Africa which is in this situation.

Also, by the way, I very much realize, and am concerned about, the many non-Christians in China who are suffering as well because of forced abortions, slave labor, etc. I just wish a few more people were as well. Granting MFN status to China has made it much more difficult on millions of Chinese citizens for many years to come. This did not need to happen. More people are persecuted in China than in any other country in the world. We were doing a little to try and stop it. Now we are not even doing that.

Re: Just war question [Re: rbnd] #18406
Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:54 AM
Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:54 AM
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If you want to read more about the persecution of Christians in Nigeria:

http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/s04100016.htm

Re: Just war question [Re: rbnd] #18407
Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:10 AM
Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:10 AM
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fredman Offline
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I think one thing that has been over looked is the nature of our secular government here in the US. Our government is not established to engage in battle for the church, as most of the governments in the Middle Ages were. Thus, the government is to act in the interest of the people as a whole and should commit troops against those aggressors who constitute a threat against the US as a whole. In actuality, Christian Just War theory really has no bearing upon any action the US government should or must take. Granted, the persecutions in Nigeria and the Sudan are grevious evil against God's people, but neither country is a threat to the national security of the US as a secular government, so it is inappropriate for anyone to suggest that the US is acting unjustly by taking a minimal stance against these type of situations.

Fred


"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
Re: Just war question [Re: fredman] #18408
Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:36 AM
Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:36 AM
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fredman,

I would certainly agree with you that perhaps the 'just war' theory cannot be applied to situations in places like Nigeria and Sudan, since they are not a threat to the national security of the U.S.

In your last statement you said that:

"It is inappropriate for anyone to suggest that the US is acting unjustly by taking a minimal stance against these type of situations."

I agree, yet I believe a minimal stance on our part should be taken in regards to places like Nigeria, Sudan - and China. I don't know what 'minimal stance', if any, that we are taking in regards to Nigeria and Sudan. We were taking a 'minimal stance' against China, and then stopped.

On the other hand, I believe it is very much a debatable issue as to whether or not Iraq was a threat to our national security, though I am not interested in discussing that issue.

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