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#18555 - Sun Oct 17, 2004 5:03 PM Response to catholicsoldier  
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catholicsoldier wrote in the Infant Baptism Question thread:

Quote
First, (and I say this kindly) you aren't speaking for everyone. For many, I would speculate, I'm here to give them something to protest, and the last thing they would want is for me to turn protestant, for then the fun would end. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bananas.gif" alt="" />


Let me say that no true Bible-believing, God-loving Christian would ever want you to remain Catholic (or any other heretical religion). No, if you accepted the Gospel of grace, we would be overjoyed and praise God together with you. However, seeing as to your current beliefs, we have no choice (even a God-mandated duty) to speak the truth in love to you.

Quote
Yes, and that's why I tread carefully and have clarified to Pilgrim from the start that I don't seek to undermine the syllibus if this forum, nor do I seek converts.


How quickly modern-day Catholics forget the 24th and 32nd Canons of the Council of Trent's Canon on Justification:

Quote
CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ195.HTM


And Pope Innocent III, Pope Pius IX, Pope Leo XIII, Pope Saint Pius X, Pope Boniface VIII, and Pope Eugene IV all believed there was no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church.

If what I believe is considered to be an anathema by your beliefr system, and if your infallible Popes believed that there is no salvation outsdide the RCC, I would hope you would seek my conversion.


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
#18556 - Sun Oct 17, 2004 5:55 PM Re: Response to catholicsoldier [Re: MarieP]  
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Semperreformanda,

Ma'am, please refer to my posted response of yesterday (Saturday Oct 16th 11:19 pm) to the Infant Baptism Question thread. I hope this answers your question as to why I'm not concerned about your soul, as you shouldn't be about mine. If I consider you "anethema" I would have to make the same assumption about my parents, sisters, and closest friends, and indeed my own self before I converted from Protestant to Catholic. Needless to say, I know better.
(And also there is a personal message to you there.)

You shouldn't paint Catholics with too broad a stroke, lest you would like to be held culpible for some of the craziness that happens in Protestantism. You know that's not fair. As far as quoting from the Counsel of Trent, you know, some things may have changed in the last 450 years. I'm also sure that you're aware that today's magisterium considers protestants as "separated brethren." Are you purposely ommitting this fact in favor of outdated divisions and strife?


"In the love of Christ and the communion of the saints"

catholicsoldier <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/takethat.gif" alt="" />

#18557 - Sun Oct 17, 2004 6:05 PM Re: Response to catholicsoldier [Re: catholicsoldier]  
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Quote
Are you purposely ommitting this fact in favor of outdated divisions and strife?


No, I'm not.

So you are saying that you believe the teaching of Trent and the Popes are fallible, then?


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
#18558 - Sun Oct 17, 2004 6:17 PM Re: Response to catholicsoldier [Re: MarieP]  
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SemperReformanda,

Not in the least, the provisions of Trent were certainly applicable back then to deal effectively with heresies, (such as justification by faith alone) creeping into the Church. The Vatican Counsels of the 19th and 20th centuries address more modern problems.

Do you really understand what "inerrenccy" and "papal infallibility" is?

catholicsoldier <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/takethat.gif" alt="" />

#18559 - Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:15 PM Re: Response to catholicsoldier [Re: catholicsoldier]  
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Quote
Not in the least, the provisions of Trent were certainly applicable back then to deal effectively with heresies, (such as justification by faith alone) creeping into the Church. The Vatican Counsels of the 19th and 20th centuries address more modern problems.


But they do not rescind the declarations of Trent, do they? Justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone is the only true, biblical doctrine of justification. It is not a heresy; on the contrary, the Roman Church's doctrine is what's heretical. If you are a lover of Christ, come out of her! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grovel.gif" alt="" />


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#18560 - Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:24 PM Re: Response to catholicsoldier [Re: catholicsoldier]  
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May I direct you to this article? I realize there's supposedly a differnce between a pope's private and public statements, but who knows when a pope is speaking what way?

http://members.aol.com/jasonte/bullunam.htm


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
#18561 - Sun Oct 17, 2004 8:05 PM Re: Response to catholicsoldier [Re: MarieP]  
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SemperReformanda,

Heads up, Ma'am. I just posted an entire article on this subject in the Theology Forum.

Pax Christi

catholicsoldier <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/takethat.gif" alt="" />

#18562 - Sun Oct 17, 2004 8:15 PM Re: Response to catholicsoldier [Re: CovenantInBlood]  
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Covenantinblood,
Quote

Justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone is the only true, biblical doctrine of justification. It is not a heresy; on the contrary, the Roman Church's doctrine is what's heretical.


I won't argue which one is heretical with you. In this forum, all Catholic teaching is heretical; but if you were to enter a catholic forum sola fide, and sola gratia would be heresies. And I myself believe them to be heresies, but I respect the platform of this forum.

In the Sacred Heart of Christ through the Immaculate Heart of Mary

catholicsoldier <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/takethat.gif" alt="" />

#18563 - Sun Oct 17, 2004 8:45 PM Re: Response to catholicsoldier [Re: catholicsoldier]  

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The question then becomes, which does scripture teach? So far, that's something that has been fairly lacking in your arguments.


God bless,

william

#18564 - Sun Oct 17, 2004 8:57 PM Re: Response to catholicsoldier  
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William,

I'm really befuddled. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I do provide scriptural proof on every belief I state, and yet you ask for it as if I had ommitted it. I already exposed the fallacy of sola fide in my article The Role Of Works In Our Salvation using ample scriptural evidence. Just how repetitive do you want me to get?

Life is hard. God is good. Heaven is sure.

catholicsoldier <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/takethat.gif" alt="" />

#18565 - Sun Oct 17, 2004 10:21 PM Re: Response to catholicsoldier [Re: catholicsoldier]  

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Moved to http://www.the-highway.com/forum/showthr...&PHPSESSID=.

Ooops. Sorry.


God bless,

william

Last edited by averagefellar; Sun Oct 17, 2004 10:31 PM.
#18566 - Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:53 PM Re: Response to catholicsoldier [Re: catholicsoldier]  
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Tom Online content
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Catholicsoldier do you believe what was said in the council of Trent, was infallible?
From the council of Trent
CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

You then go on to say: “As far as quoting from the Counsel of Trent, you know, some things may have changed in the last 450 years. I'm also sure that you're aware that today's magisterium considers protestants as "separated brethren." Are you purposely ommitting this fact in favor of outdated divisions and strife?”



From talking to other Catholics (at least as I understood them), my understanding is that they do believe what was said at Trent (especially about anathema, was indeed spoken infallibly.

How can both what you stated above and what is now believe 450 years later both be true?
Remember what was written at Trent was publicly stated and fits all the criteria that would be considered canon by Roman Catholicism.

Tom

#18567 - Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:19 PM Re: Response to catholicsoldier [Re: Tom]  
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Tom,
Quote

How can both what you stated above and what is now believe 450 years later both be true?


For very personal reasons that I have already published.

The peace of Christ dwell richly in your heart and settle your home. Amen.

catholicsoldier

catholicsoldier <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/takethat.gif" alt="" />

#18568 - Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:37 AM Re: Response to catholicsoldier [Re: catholicsoldier]  
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Quote
For very personal reasons that I have already published.


Perhaps you could show me where this quote is.

Tom

#18569 - Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:20 AM Re: Response to catholicsoldier [Re: Tom]  
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Tom,

Even better, sir, I'll just tell you, because I want people to know who I am and where I come from.

I was raised in a Protestant family. At the age of 7 I got on my knees and asked Jesus into my heart. I was baptized at nine in a Nazarine Church and was raised in the tenants of Protestantism,

But when I became an adult I started reexamining what I believe in light of what was being taught to me, and I found my beliefs more in line with the Catholic Church than with Protestantism, so I made the decision to convert. That was 11 years ago.

But even today, my family is protestant, as well as many close and dear friends. I fellowship with them while holding strongly to what I believe as a Catholic.

So you're asking me if I can ever entertain the notion that they're not saved?; my dad, who pastors a church and preaches at San Quentin prison? Or can I say that I myself was unsaved before I converted?

I know better, sir! I've known and loved Jesus since I was a wee lad, and I have seen the evidence of Christ's love in my family and friends. I would never think them unsaved because they aren't Catholic.

But even today Catholic leaders refer to Protestants as "seperated brethren" tempering the tone of Trent while not exactly contradicting it. For the doctrine of justification by faith alone is indeed "anathema" by our understanding of the Bible.

I love dearly these "seperated brethren" and rejoice that they have found Christ by any means. That's why you will notice that I can be contentious in regards to doctrines, but retain the spirit of unity in regards to our salvation in Christ.

"To whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life!"

catholicsoldier <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/takethat.gif" alt="" />
(James)

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