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Jeremiah 31.......KNOWING #19581
Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:31 PM
Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:31 PM

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Quote

Jer 31:31-34 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (KJV)


I have some questions concerning this passage.

1) What specific meaning for the word know should we use here?

2) Who was this covenant intended for?

3) How does this effect baptism?


God bless,

william

Re: Jeremiah 31.......KNOWING #19582
Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:15 AM
Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:15 AM

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As far as what "know" means, hear is some commentary
from John Gill.

on jer 31:34
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"for they shall all KNOW me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: not all mankind; but all the house of Israel, all the family of God, all the children of God being taught by him; not all alike, but all with the same kind of knowledge. This is frequently applied to the times of the Messiah by the Jews"


and on Heb 8:11
Quote
"for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest; from babes to fathers in Christ; not with a natural, but with a spiritual knowledge; not with general knowledge of him, that he is, but with a special knowledge of him, that he is theirs; not with a legal, but with an evangelical knowledge; not with the knowledge of him in, and through the creatures, but in Christ; and that not speculative, but experimental; such as is attended with faith in him, fear of him, love to him, and a cheerful obedience to his will: the knowledge of the Lord, under the New Testament dispensation, is greater than under the former dispensation; the subject matter of it is more distinct; God is more known in the persons of the Father, Son, and Spirit, in the perfections of his nature, in his titles and characters, and in his Son; the manner of it is more clear, open, and perspicuous; the persons to whom it is communicated are more numerous; it is not restrained to Jews, but is given to the Gentiles; and all this owing to a greater effusion of the Spirit; see 1Jo_2:27."

Re: Jeremiah 31.......KNOWING #19583
Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:59 PM
Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:59 PM

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If we take knowing to mean a knowing in the salvific sense, we then remove grace from the Old Covenant. Since people in both covenants are saved by grace, this is not limited to the New Covenant alone. I can't see how we can equate knowing with grace.

However, (get out your towels for when ya'll faint) the baptist might have something here. The New Covenant is not entered into through nationality or birthrite, but by profession. I can see where this is true and what the baptists uphold. I agree. I have actually conceded this point on other occasions; all of uphold the credo position for adults.

However, this does not change the practice of entire households receiving the covenant sign as well. I believe this has been the basic practice of the Church throughout history. Baptism at birth as part of the visible covenant which has always included adults and their children.


God bless,

william

Re: Jeremiah 31.......KNOWING #19584
Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:22 PM
Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:22 PM

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Quote
averagefellar said:
If we take knowing to mean a knowing in the salvific sense, we then remove grace from the Old Covenant.

I don't necessarily disagree but could you explain what you mean exactly.

Re: Jeremiah 31.......KNOWING #19585
Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:34 PM
Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:34 PM

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I'll attempt to. people are saved the same way in both covenants. Therefore the knowing cannot be something different concerning soteriology. I believe it speaks of the way we enter the covenant, profession for the new vs. birthrite in the old. It is no longer a national Israel but a spiritual Israel.


God bless,

william

Re: Jeremiah 31.......KNOWING #19586
Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:42 PM
Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:42 PM

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Can I have opinions as to whether Kent Muhling is right when he speaks for the presbyterian church and says

"Now, back to Jeremiah: Jeremiah refers to the last days in your passage (31:31-34) - "The days are coming," declares the Lord in verse 31 (see also 31:27,38; 30:3). Look carefully at his words. Do they describe the age we live in today? I would say no. Verse 34: "No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying 'know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest." Question: Do we still need teachers and preachers? Do we still need to teach our neighbors and brothers to "know the Lord?" Of course we do. But Jeremiah says that the days are coming when we will no longer need to do this. I conclude that those days have not yet arrived - we still need teachers because not all of us in the house of Israel (v. 33) know the Lord. Not yet. That will be true after Jesus returns, when the days of restoration are made complete. Only then will Jeremiah's prophecy be completely fulfilled. But we're not all the way there yet. We won't need teachers then, because everyone in the house of Israel will know the Lord, and when that happens the covenant will never be broken again. But we're not there yet."

Thankyou

Re: Jeremiah 31.......KNOWING #19587
Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:52 PM
Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:52 PM

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Quote
averagefellar said:
I'll attempt to. people are saved the same way in both covenants. Therefore the knowing cannot be something different concerning soteriology. I believe it speaks of the way we enter the covenant, profession for the new vs. birthrite in the old. It is no longer a national Israel but a spiritual Israel.

I agree it is not something different concerning soteriology but im not so sure we can get all that from the "know" in the text.

Re: Jeremiah 31.......KNOWING #19588
Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:08 PM
Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:08 PM

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Quote
I agree it is not something different concerning soteriology but im not so sure we can get all that from the "know" in the text.


Agreed. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" /> I was attempting to see the topic in light of New Covenant practice. But yes, we cannot get that from that text alone.


God bless,

william

Re: Jeremiah 31.......KNOWING #19589
Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:56 PM
Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:56 PM

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If we take knowing to mean a knowing in the salvific sense, we then remove grace from the Old Covenant.


William,

I think that the Baptist would say that in the Old, not all knew the Lord (yet some did); but in the New all will know the Lord. Given this paradigm, the RB does not have to remove salvation and grace from the Old.

Make sense?

Ron

Re: Jeremiah 31.......KNOWING #19590
Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:02 PM
Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:02 PM

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Whatever the distinguishing factor of the New Covenant is, it must square with the fact that the covenant was established only with the elect in Christ under the first economy. SDG, Do you see this? Do you see from Scripture that the Old Covenant was made with the elect in Christ alone? The reason I ask, Reformed Baptists deny this foundational theological point, which is the primary reason they conclude a change in outward administration. The change in outward administration follows from a perceived change in the establishment of the covenant.

Blessings in Christ,

Ron

Re: Jeremiah 31.......KNOWING #19591
Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:02 PM
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"i can see clearly now the rain is gone" <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bananas.gif" alt="" />
Ron D, the answer is yes, I do see it. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cheers2.gif" alt="" />

Re: Jeremiah 31.......KNOWING #19592
Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:17 PM
Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:17 PM

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Soli Deo Gloria said:
"i can see clearly now the rain is gone" <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bananas.gif" alt="" />
Ron D, the answer is yes, I do see it. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cheers2.gif" alt="" />


<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/ClapHands.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/ClapHands.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/ClapHands.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/ClapHands.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/ClapHands.gif" alt="" />

It's a beutiful thing. Galatians three was the key for me in understanding Genesis 17.

Blessings,

Ron

Re: Jeremiah 31.......KNOWING #19593
Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:18 PM
Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:18 PM

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p.s. Wouldn't that song be most appropriate for the smog in LA?

Re: Jeremiah 31.......KNOWING #19594
Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:29 PM
Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:29 PM
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Ron,

You are correct. I do not see how taking "know" in a salvific sense would remove grace. Is not repentance/faith a result of God's electing, special grace?


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Re: Jeremiah 31.......KNOWING #19595
Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:32 PM
Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:32 PM
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"Knowing" can mean it in the salvation sense if you maintain that not all in the Old Covenant were saved.


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
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