Donations for the month of January


We have received a total of $120 in donations towards our goal of $175.


Don't want to use PayPal? Go HERE


Search

Member Spotlight
Posts: 2,895
Joined: September 2003
Show All Member Profiles 
Forum Statistics
Forums30
Topics6,585
Posts50,921
Members922
Most Online373
Mar 5th, 2017
Top Posters(All Time)
Pilgrim 13,349
Tom 3,370
chestnutmare 2,895
J_Edwards 2,615
Wes 1,856
John_C 1,750
RJ_ 1,582
MarieP 1,578
gotribe 1,057
Top Posters(30 Days)
Tom 45
Pilgrim 36
John_C 2
Kaylin 2
Meta4 1
Recent Posts
Jesus vs Paul and the Church
by Pilgrim. Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:13 PM
John the Baptist
by Meta4. Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:53 PM
Paul on a Young Earth
by Pilgrim. Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:23 PM
Oregon Baker's ordered to pay 135k
by Anthony C.. Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:48 PM
Contemplative Spirituality and Theistic Evolution
by Tom. Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:20 PM
Fear of man
by Tom. Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:50 PM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
#19966 - Fri Dec 10, 2004 6:35 PM Yet Another Baptism Question  
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 551
john Offline
Addict
john  Offline
Addict

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 551
Eastern US
Since baptism is the popular topic recently, I'll toss out another question. Hopefully this one isn't too controversial. In Acts 19:1-7, Paul rebaptizes some men who had been baptized in the name of John instead of the name of Christ. Why was it necessary for them to re-baptized? The text says that John "baptized with the baptism of repantance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus". So, John's baptism was pointing those being baptized toward Christ, even though they did not know who that was at the time. Did everyone who was baptized by John or in the name of John need to be rebaptized? If so, what was the purpose at all of John baptizing at all?

Thanks,
John

#19967 - Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:24 AM Re: Yet Another Baptism Question [Re: john]  
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 551
john Offline
Addict
john  Offline
Addict

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 551
Eastern US
I've read a little more on this passage. This is from Calvin's Commentary on Acts.

Quote

5. When they heard these things. Because the men of old had conceived an opinion that the baptism of John and of Christ were diverse, it was no inconvenient 4 thing for them to be baptized again, who were only prepared with the baptism of John. But that that diversity was falsely and wickedly by them believed, it appeareth by this, in that it was a pledge and token of the same adoption, and of the same newness of life, which we have at this day in our baptism; and, therefore, we do not read that Christ did baptize those again who came from John unto him. Moreover, Christ received baptism in his own flesh, that he might couple himself with us by that visible sign, (Matthew 3:15) but if that reigned diversity be admitted, this singular benefit shall fall away and perish, that baptism is common to the Son of God and to us, or that we have all one baptism with him. But this opinion needeth no long refutation, because to the end they may persuade that these two baptisms be diverse, they must needs show first wherein the one differeth from the other; but a most excellent likelihood answereth on both parts, and also the agreement and conformity of the parts, 5 which causeth us to confess that it is all one baptism.

Now the question is, whether it were lawful to repeat the same; and furious men in this our age; trusting to this testimony, went about to bring in baptizing again. 6 Some take baptism for new institution or instruction, of whose mind I am not, because, as their exposition is too much racked, so it smelleth of a starting-hole 7.

Other some deny that baptism was repeated; because they were baptized amiss by some foolish enemy 8 of John. But because their conjecture hath no color; yea, the words of Paul do rather import that they were the true and natural disciples of John, and Luke doth honorably call them disciples of Christ; I do not subscribe to this opinion, and yet deny that the baptism of water was repeated, because the words of Luke import no other thing, save only that they were baptized with the Spirit. First, it is no new thing for the name of baptism to be translated unto the gifts of the Spirit, as we saw in the first and in the eleventh chapters, (Acts 1:5, and Acts 11:6) where Luke said, that when Christ promised to his apostles to send the Spirit visible, he called it baptism.

Also, that when the Spirit came down upon Cornelius, Peter remembered the words of the Lord, "Ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost." Again, we see that those visible gifts are spoken of by name in this place, and that the same are given with baptism. And whereas it followeth immediately, that when he had laid his hands upon them, the Spirit came, I take it to be added by way of interpretation; for it is a kind of speaking much used in the Scripture, first to set down a thing briefly, and afterwards to make it more plain. Therefore, that which by reason of brevity was somewhat obscure, doth Luke better express and lay more open, saying, that by laying on of hands the Spirit was given them. If any man object, that when baptism is put for the gifts of the Spirit, it is not taken simply, but having somewhat added to it. I answer, that Luke's meaning doth sufficiently appear by the text; and again, that Luke doth allude unto the baptism whereof he spake. And surely if you understand it of the external sign, it shall be an absurd thing that it was given them without using any better doctrine. But and if you take it metaphorically for institution, the speech shall be as yet harsh; and the narration should not agree, that after they were taught the Holy Ghost came down upon them.

Furthermore, as I confess that this laying on of hands was a sacrament, so I say that those fell through ignorance who did continually imitate the same. For seeing that all men agree in this, that it was a grace which was to last only for a time, which was showed by that sign, it is a perverse and ridiculous thing to retain the sign since the truth is taken away. There is another respect of baptism and the supper, wherein the Lord doth testify that those gifts are laid open for us, which the Church shall enjoy even until the end of the world. Wherefore we must diligently and wisely distinguish perpetual sacraments from those which last only for a time, lest vain and frivolous visures [semblances] have a place among the sacraments. Whereas the men of old time did use laying on of hands, that they might confirm the profession of faith in those who were grown up, 9 I do not mislike it; so that no man think that the grace of the Spirit is annexed to such a ceremony, as doth Jerome against the Luciferians.

But the Papists are worthy of no pardon, who being not content with the ancient rite, durst thrust in rotten and filthy anointing, that it might be not only a confirmation of baptism, but also a more worthy sacrament, whereby they imagine that the faithful are made perfect who were before only half perfect, -- whereby those are armed against the battle, who before had their sins only forgiven them. For they have not been afraid to spew out these horrible blasphemies.


So, if I'm reading this right (bold is mine), Calvin asserts that the baptism in Acts 19:5 is not a re-baptism with water, but a baptism of the Holy Spirit. What do others think? Is the "baptism" in Acts 19:5 a re-baptism with water or a baptism of the Holy Spirit? I had always assumed it was a re-baptism with water, but now I'm wondering. If it wasn't a re-baptism with water, this would solve my original question about why another baptism was necessary.

John


Who's Online Now
1 registered members (Tom), 22 guests, and 26 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
SmallFry, drewk, patrice, Robert1962, Ron
922 Registered Users
Shout Box
January
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30 31
Today's Birthdays
belovedword
Popular Topics(Views)
685,238 Gospel truth
Page Time: 0.039s Queries: 15 (0.002s) Memory: 2.5491 MB (Peak: 2.7997 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2018-01-18 08:14:02 UTC