Donations for the month of December


We have received a total of $140 in donations towards our goal of $175.


Don't want to use PayPal? Go HERE


Search

Member Spotlight
Tom
Tom
Kelowna, British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 3,324
Joined: April 2001
Show All Member Profiles 
Forum Statistics
Forums30
Topics6,549
Posts50,772
Members921
Most Online373
Mar 5th, 2017
Top Posters(All Time)
Pilgrim 13,313
Tom 3,324
chestnutmare 2,868
J_Edwards 2,615
Wes 1,856
John_C 1,748
RJ_ 1,582
MarieP 1,578
gotribe 1,057
Top Posters(30 Days)
Tom 28
Pilgrim 21
Recent Posts
Presuppositional Apologetics
by Tom. Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:42 PM
Adam created holy, so how could he fall?
by Pilgrim. Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:40 PM
Christmas
by Pilgrim. Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:01 AM
Key teaching of Dispys is Gnostic
by PerpetualLearner. Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:11 PM
Glorious Bach
by goldenoldie. Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:46 AM
Nothing New Under the Sun?
by PerpetualLearner. Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:25 PM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 3 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
#20180 - Tue Dec 21, 2004 9:18 PM Re: Some meat for the dogs . . . [Re: Pilgrim]  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote
It would be utter silliness for anyone to fall into this trite challenge, for your "concicular decrees" are no more binding upon us as the Westminster Confession of Faith is binding upon you.


Au contraire, mon fraire. Those who met in council were the successors of the apostolic offices, to whom was given "all authority"

[color:"0000FF"]Mark 13:34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.[/color]

He also promised unto one of them, and by extension, all who would hold that office, the blessing of infallibility in doctrinal and moral matters:

[color:"FF0000"]Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.[/color]

So we see that Jesus has indeed established a hierarchy to rule His earthly kingdom until His return. No covenantal structure is without authority.


Quote
What matters is what the inspired, infallible, inerrant written Word of God teaches, to which many will distort, deny and depart.


Indeed. The multitudes of Protestant denominations, sects, cults, isms, and schisms -- all disagreeing with each other and yet all claiming to be led of the Holy Spirit into the "true Gospel" -- is a profound testimony and witness to this fact. At the same time, there remains but ONE Catholic Faith -- the same as was given to the apostles by Jesus Himself.

Quote
I don't find it surprising that the majority of alleged Christian men would hold to Pelagianism/semi-Pelagianism, for it is the "natural theology" of a sinful mind and heart whose primary lust is to free themselves from their Creator as He has revealed Himself in His Word and make themselves "co-regents".


ROTFLMHO!!!!

I'm sorry. I just remember when I believed in Calvinism. The word Pelagianism was a "dirty word" to us theologically. Therefore, I am sort of superimposing upon you this picture in my mind of your icon with his pipe twirling in his mouth as you say the words!

My friend, obeying God is not Pelagianism. It is faith. God calls us to faith not as robots who can do no other than to obey because we are programmed to, but as the beloved Bride of Christ who freely gives her consent to the Beloved. That is the essence of what it means to "cut covenant" -- i.e., that we do so from a decision of our will, not from some inner prompting which we can not resist. We are human beings, not Borg (WARNING! You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile!).

If a man is not free to say "yes" to God, then it is not marriage, it is rape. God comes to us as our Beloved Bridegroom and waits that we either accept or reject His proposal to enter into the Wedding Feast of the Lamb.


Cordially in Christ,


Brother Ed

#20181 - Tue Dec 21, 2004 9:32 PM Re: Some meat for the dogs . . . [Re: Pilgrim]  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote
The answer is an unreserved, "No!" It is impossible than any can be saved without "knowing" the Lord Christ and embracing Him with a living faith, created within them by the Holy Spirit. (Jh 14:6; Rom 1:16; 10:14-17; Eph 2:8, 9; et al)


I sort of expected as much, but I didn't wish to put words in your mouth.

This is, of course, not what the Bible teaches at all.

The man I have in mind is the Chinese philosopher Lau Tzu, who wrote the Tau Te Ching 500 years before Christ was born. In the Tau, Lau Tzu describes not only the existence of the Blessed Trinity, but refers to the Incarnation of the One he calls the Way (Tau). The only thing that Lau Tzu didn't know was that the Way has a name: The Lord Jesus Christ.

How is this possible? Scripture tells us:

[color:"0000FF"]Romans 2:13-16 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.[/color]

Note: The doers of the Law shall be justified. Sounds like our justification comes from what we "DO" and not just faith alone. And in Romans 2: 5 - 10 and John 5: 28 - 29, both St. Paul and Jesus validate this -- both of them stating quite clearly that the Great Judgment will be about what we have DONE -- those who have DONE GOOD (law keepers) receiving eternal life and those who have done evil (law breakers) receiving eternal torment.

Note also that it says that the Gentiles, who have not the Law (in other words, they are ignorant and untaught, as was Lau Tzu) have the Law written in their hearts, so that this becomes the Law unto them. And if they obey that Law, then they are covenant keepers *by desire* in obeying the promptings of the Holy Spirit, Who alone causes that law to be placed in their hearts and calls them to obey what is in their hearts.

You see, God is nowhere near as callous and cold as Calvinism makes Him out to be. When He says that He desires all men to be saved -- He means it!! He does not base salvation upon mere head knowledge, but upon the Law of God either written in our hearts or heard with our ears --- and our obedience to that which we know. That is called "covenant keeping" and it is the basis upon which God can have mercy upon all mankind through the work of Christ Jesus.

I have no doubt that Lau Tzu is in Heaven right now. Why? Because what he wrote in the Tau Te Ching is the Gospel of Jesus Christ as Christ taught it -- it is THE WAY -- the life we are to live if we expect to recieve the blessing of eternal life. And Lau Tzu, by his writing, showed that the Holy Spirit was at work in his heart and in his life, he lived what he wrote, thus being obedient to the Law of his heart placed there by the Spirit.


Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

#20182 - Tue Dec 21, 2004 9:36 PM Re: Some meat for the dogs . . .  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


William --

You have proven your point most eloquently.

Therefore, since it was in a concicular decree, I must agree with you that God does divide and does predestinate.

Wonder if I can be the first Catholic Calvinist <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Actually, I still am rather in favor of St. Thomas Aquinas' explanation of it.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

#20183 - Tue Dec 21, 2004 9:44 PM Re: Some meat for the dogs . . .  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


I am catholic. I am not Roman Catholic.

In other words, you accept paedobaptism, the seven Sacraments, the veneration of our Blessed Lady, the communion of the saints, the hierarchial structure of the Church, etc.?

No?

Well, then you aren't Catholic, regardless of your protestations. You see, to be catholic, you must accept that which is "katholicos" (Greek--"universal"). As St. Vincent of Lerins so eloquently put it:

"The Catholic Faith is that which has been believed by all persons, in every place, at all times"

Sorry, the only two faiths which can claim this are the Eastern Orthodox and the 26 rites of the Catholic Church.

Of course. Now could you tell me which hierarchy and give scriptural reference for this procedure? I believe that as long as his beliefs lined up with Gods Word it was truth despite any hierarchy. Gods Word is final and it speaks clearly on the matter.

The scriptural precedent is the promise of Christ to St. Peter that the Church would not be overrun by the gates of hell. The only way this would be possible is to have an infallible leader -- a covenantal head if you please -- over the Church to guide Her into all truth. Then there was also the promise made to the apostles in the Upper Room where Jesus promised them that the Holy Spirit would guide them into all truth.

How vastly far that is from the multitudes of Protestant beliefs -- all claiming to be led of the Holy Spirit in properly understanding the Scriptures and yet all disagreeing with each other. That does not seem like the Spirit to me. God's word is final -- but it far from speaks clearly on any number of matters. That is why there is such confusion and disagreement within Protestantism today.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

#20184 - Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:07 PM Re: Some meat for the dogs . . .  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,313
Pilgrim Offline
Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,313
NH, USA
Quote
OrthodoxCatholic said:
The scriptural precedent is the promise of Christ to St. Peter that the Church would not be overrun by the gates of hell. The only way this would be possible is to have an infallible leader -- a covenantal head if you please -- over the Church to guide Her into all truth. Then there was also the promise made to the apostles in the Upper Room where Jesus promised them that the Holy Spirit would guide them into all truth.

O' contrare.... see here: Argument for an Infallible Body.

Your other claim:


"The Catholic Faith is that which has been believed by all persons, in every place, at all times"

Sorry, the only two faiths which can claim this are the Eastern Orthodox and the 26 rites of the Catholic Church.



is so ridiculously contrary to all known history that it isn't worth the time to reply. There are so many differences in doctrine and/or practice that have existed in the "Catholic" church, both Roman and Orthodox, that it staggers the imagination how anyone can make such a claim, although many have and still do. All it would take to disprove such a boastful remark is to show but one single dissenter. The fact that there have been thousands is but icing on the cake.

In His Grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#20185 - Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:14 AM Re: Some meat for the dogs . . . [Re: Pilgrim]  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


BAnner of Truth, eh?

Now there's an unbiased body if I ever saw one! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Actually, used to be my favorite shopping place. They have a "book depot" about 10 miles from me. Used to go there all the time looking for books by A.W. Pink.

Ah well, let's see....you mind if I burn some bandwidth?

Quote
IN resuming now the analysis of your argument, it may be well to repeat that the ultimate conclusion which you propose to reach is the infallibility of Rome as a witness for the truth. This point you endeavour to establish by showing, in the first place, that there must be some “body of individuals to whom, in their collective capacity,” God has graciously vouchsafed the precious prerogative which you claim for your pastors. According to you, the whole question of the truth of Christianity turns upon the existence of an infallible tribunal on earth, from which men may receive unerring decisions in matters of faith, and without which the overwhelming majority of the race must be abandoned to hopeless and complete infidelity.

Indeed. I think this writer would be aghast to see what Protestantism has become today, abandoned indeed to hopeless infidelity, those institutions which the Reformers began having one by one embraced apostasy and immorality in their teachings, such as the ordination of practicing homosexuals.

If there were, indeed, no escape from the dilemma to which you have attempted to reduce us, the means of salvation would be hardly less fatal than the dangers from which they are appointed to rescue us. But it may yet be found, sir, that a merciful God has dealt more gently with His children than to commit their fate to the teachings of a body “whose garments are dyed in blood,”

Ho now, the pot calls the kettle black. It was the Scottish Presbyterians whose history is one of blood...the blood of over 4,000 priests alone in Scotland who were murdered wholesale. Time would not allow me to list all the abominations of the Protestant persecutions of Catholics.

whose whole career on earth, like the progress of Joel’s locusts, has been marked by ruin,

Really? What ruin speaketh this man? The multitudes of orphanages, hospitals, and other charitable works for the good of man? Or perhaps he speaketh of the various ruinous doctrines which the Catholic Church defended and for which he should be thankful, for if it were not for the councils of the Catholic Church and the imprimateur of the pope, he would be an Arian heretic.

and which, if its future blessings are to be collected from its past achievements, can give us nothing but wormwood and gall, a stone for bread and a serpent for a fish.

Once again we see this has not come to pass, for while Protestant assemblies one by one are falling to humanism, the Catholic Church continues to oppose the humnanistic doctrines of modernity.

The friends of liberty and man, if reduced to the deplorable alternative of reaching the sacred Scriptures only on condition of submitting to a bondage more grievous than that from which the groaning Israelites were delivered by a strong hand and an outstretched arm, would, in all probability, prefer the frozen air of infidelity to the deadly miasma of Rome.

Yack yack yack. Ad hominum attacks are not doctrinal teaching. But he is in a state of greater enlightenment now.

What is this but to limit the Holy One of Israel? You would do well to remember that the purposes of God are not adjusted by the measures of human prudence or of human sagacity. As the heavens are high above the earth, so His thoughts are high above our thoughts, and His ways above our ways.

What a noble sounding appeal to rejection of the authority which God placed on earth to guide all men.

Plausible objections avail nothing against Divine institutions.

You said a mouthful, sir. The divine instutition of the Holy Catholic Church shall continue on regardless of both Her external AND internal enemies who would see Her ruined and made naught.

Do you not tell us, in effect, that God could not have given satisfactory evidence of the truth and inspiration of His own Word without establishing a visible tribunal protected from error by His special grace?

I wonder again what this man would say now seeing that there are as many denominations as there are human opinions of what is truth! Such a multitude of varying doctrines is EXACTLY why there needs be ONE and ONLY ONE infallible interpretor of the Bible. It is evident to everyone except those who are willingly blind that there is a serious problem with this idea of "private judgment".

And that He is thus limited in His resources, thus necessarily tied up to the one only plan which the pastors of Rome have found so prodigiously profitable to them,

This is typical of the Reformers that I read. They are weak on exegesis and cover it up with constant ad hominum attacks.

Why then is private judgment inadmissible? Why is it that each man is not at liberty to examine for himself, and form his own opinions upon those solemn subjects in which his own individual happiness is so deeply concerned?

Because in a covenantal hierarchy, there is authority given to only the covenantal head, according to the scriptural pattern. This is why the Holy Father alone has been given the grace of Infallibility, for he alone is the head of the kingdom ON EARTH, and is a picture of that divine Head Who is the King of kings over the covenantal family in Heaven. (Heb. 8:5).

Certain it is that there was not a single individual in the whole Council of Trent who possessed even a tithe of the learning without which, in your view, an accurate decision is hopeless.

Again with the ad hominums as he attacks the intelligence of the men who were on the Council of Trent.

“If any one say that the beginning or increase of faith and the very affection of belief is in us, not by the gift of grace—that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit correcting our will from infidelity to faith, from impiety to piety—but by nature, he is an enemy to the doctrine of the Apostles. If any man affirm that he can by the vigour of nature think anything good which pertains to salvation as he ought, or choose to consent to saving—that is, to evangelical—preaching without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who gives to all the sweet relish in consenting to and believing the truth, he is deceived by an heretical spirit”

This is STILL the teaching of the Church even today. Get a copy of the Catholic Catechism and see for yourself

The great Athanasius (Orat. Cont. Gent., c. i.) says:
A j uta krei" men gar eisin ai dgiai kai qeopneustai grafai pro" thn th" alhqeia" apaggelian. “The Christian faith carries within itself the discovery of its own authority, and the Holy Scriptures which God has inspired are all- sufficient in themselves for the evidence of their own truth.”

[b]Why does this man go to the Early Fathers to quote them in their beliefs and not at the same time practice their beliefs? They were fully and thoroughly CATHOLIC.

The issue here is not the truth of the scriptures or whether or not they are of divine origin. The issue is this: WHO is authorized by God to properly interpret them?[b]



I notice that in all that this man said, there was NARY A WORD NOR APPEAL TO SCRIPTURE. It was line after line of human reasoning, appeals to liberty of conscience, etc. hatever you were trying to appeal to regarding the Church and Her government....well, there was basically NOTHING SAID in that article.

On the other hand, I will use scripture to PROVE that there can only be one head upon the earth.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

#20186 - Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:23 AM Re: Some meat for the dogs . . .  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote
On the other hand, I will use scripture to PROVE that there can only be one head upon the earth.


Great. Let's see some. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


God bless,

william

#20187 - Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:26 AM Re: Some meat for the dogs . . .  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Okay. Shall we start another thread?

Look for the thread "One Head on Earth"

I wish to go to Mass now....will get it started sometime later.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

#20188 - Wed Dec 22, 2004 3:35 PM Re: Some meat for the dogs . . .  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,313
Pilgrim Offline
Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,313
NH, USA
Quote
OrthodoxCatholic said:
(Re: Lau Tzu, his alleged redemption without knowing Christ and your total misconstruing of Rom 2:13-16) Note: The doers of the Law shall be justified. Sounds like our justification comes from what we "DO" and not just faith alone. And in Romans 2: 5 - 10 and John 5: 28 - 29, both St. Paul and Jesus validate this -- both of them stating quite clearly that the Great Judgment will be about what we have DONE -- those who have DONE GOOD (law keepers) receiving eternal life and those who have done evil (law breakers) receiving eternal torment.

Note also that it says that the Gentiles, who have not the Law (in other words, they are ignorant and untaught, as was Lau Tzu) have the Law written in their hearts, so that this becomes the Law unto them. And if they obey that Law, then they are covenant keepers *by desire* in obeying the promptings of the Holy Spirit, Who alone causes that law to be placed in their hearts and calls them to obey what is in their hearts.

Once again we are exposed to the truism, "A text out of context is nothing more than pretext!". 1) The Analogy of Faith, i.e., comparing Scripture with Scripture shows us that IF what you are suggesting this passage teaches, that men are saved by works of the law, then Paul is contradicting himself. For in so many other places, he makes clear that men are not saved by works of the law but by faith (cf. Rom 3:20, 28; 4:2; Gal 2:16; 3:11, 12; et al). 2) The verse immediately preceding, vs. 12 reveals what Paul's intent is in vss. 13-16, as does the entire book of Romans:


Romans 2:12 (ASV) "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;"



As one can plainly see, both the Jews, who had the advantage of having the Law of God written on the tablets of stone and the Gentiles, who although were totally ignorant of the Decalogue and/or the Pentateuch have the law written upon their hearts, are going to be condemned because they all are guilty of transgression that law. The fact that the Gentiles, by reason of conscience, conform outwardly in some measure, due to the restraining power of the Spirit, to this law written on their hearts, they nonetheless will be judged as transgressors.

The contrast which Paul is setting forth here is not between justification by faith vs. justification by works, but rather one between two groups of people; those who hear and do and those who merely hear. (cf. Matt 7:24-29; 13:3ff; Lk 6:46) Those who possess true saving faith will infallibly exhibit the fruit of that faith in the doing of good works. (Lk 1:74, 75; Rom 6; 8:28, 30; Eph 2:10; 1:4; Phil 1:12, 13; Jam 2:26; et al)

Quote
You also said:
You see, God is nowhere near as callous and cold as Calvinism makes Him out to be. When He says that He desires all men to be saved -- He means it!!

I'm going to assume that you are referring to 1Tim 2:4, re: "all men to be saved"? Going on that assumption, and for the sake of time and space, I would refer you to this exegesis of that text: An Exegetical Study of 1 Timothy 2:4.

In His Grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#20189 - Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:50 PM Re: Some meat for the dogs . . . [Re: Pilgrim]  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Once again we are exposed to the truism, "A text out of context is nothing more than pretext!". 1) The Analogy of Faith, i.e., comparing Scripture with Scripture shows us that IF what you are suggesting this passage teaches, that men are saved by works of the law, then Paul is contradicting himself.

Sorry. What I have not made clear is that salvation is by grace alone through the work of Christ Jesus. In order to be entered into that salvation, one must "cut covenant" with the Father through the Son.

However, since it is not possible that all men everywhere could have heard the Gospel message, especially those in foreign countries and prior to the coming of Christ, we see that God deals with them in a different manner. This is what the Catholic Church has termed "the baptism of desire", which simply means that God regards the heart of each man, and seeing those who truly desire to find and serve Him, regards that as being the same as if they had been baptized into the covenantal kingdom. This is what I was suggesting with Lau Tzu. It is evident that the Holy Spirit was working upon Lau Tzu's heart and his response in both writing about the the Blessed Trinity and also in living out the Way, shows that he was one who was both seeking truth and willing to live out the truth which he had in his heart from the Spirit of God. As such, I believe he received the baptism of desire from God in His mercy.

Eternal life is a distinct and separate issue from salvation. That is what St. Paul is referring to in Romans 2: 5 - 10 when he speaks about the Last Judgment and Christ judging all men by what they have done. Our works are the way by which we "keep covenant" with God and thus receive the inheritance of eternal life as faithful adopted children of His. I did not mean to suggest that one might work one's way into salvation. But one does maintain his state of covenantal union with God by the works of Faith which we are commanded to do (i.e., "Law keeping"). Thus it is that the "doers of the law are justified" as St. Paul said...that is, we continue in the state of justification by being faithful covenant keepers.


For in so many other places, he makes clear that men are not saved by works of the law but by faith (cf. Rom 3:20, 28; 4:2; Gal 2:16; 3:11, 12; et al).

Yes. I agree. We place our faith in Jesus Christ as our Redeemer/Kinsman

2) The verse immediately preceding, vs. 12 reveals what Paul's intent is in vss. 13-16, as does the entire book of Romans:

The entire thrust of what St. Paul is dealing with is that the Jews thought that they had a free pass into Heaven by virtue of being Jews. Romans 2: 5 - 10 makes it clear to them that ALL MEN will stand before Christ on the Day of Judgment and will be judged by what they have done (aka "covenant keeping") There is no respect of persons with God as to national origin, religious practice, proper theology, intellectual depth, etc. The Judgment is about WHO we have become in Christ, which is reflected by our works. Are we showing mercy? Do we love. Remember that St. Paul also stated in 1 Corin. 13 that love is the highest good, without which we are nothing, despite all that we might know.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

#20190 - Wed Dec 22, 2004 10:06 PM Re: Some meat for the dogs . . . [Re: gotribe]  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


His signature is adequate because OC said "I think what you should be asking yourself is this: if the Calvinist soteriological paradigm is true, how come no one 'discovered' it for 1500 years?" and Isidore is from like 600AD which clearly reveals that "calvinism" is not some new paradigm. That would be my guess.

#20191 - Wed Dec 22, 2004 10:08 PM Re: Some meat for the dogs . . .  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,057
gotribe Offline
Permanent Resident
gotribe  Offline

Permanent Resident

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,057
Chicagoland
Yes, thanks. I figured that out. Didn't know who Isidore was or when he lived.


Trust the past to God's mercy, the present to God's love and the future to God's providence." - St. Augustine
Hiraeth
#20192 - Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:50 PM Re: Some meat for the dogs . . .  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,313
Pilgrim Offline
Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,313
NH, USA
Quote
OrthodoxCatholic said:
However, since it is not possible that all men everywhere could have heard the Gospel message, especially those in foreign countries and prior to the coming of Christ, we see that God deals with them in a different manner. This is what the Catholic Church has termed "the baptism of desire", which simply means that God regards the heart of each man, and seeing those who truly desire to find and serve Him, regards that as being the same as if they had been baptized into the covenantal kingdom.

As is so typical, the Roman State Church has fabricated a doctrine which doesn't have a shred of biblical support. God has always dealt with all men everywhere in exactly the same way in regard to salvation; i.e., the requirement of faith, either in the promise of the coming Messiah or in the Messiah that has already come. (Jh 1:12, 13; Jh 10:16; Heb 11:4ff). Those who have believed upon Christ after His departure are said to be like unto Abraham with whom God "cut covenant" and who is the father of all those who believe. (cf. Rom 4:3; Gal 3:6; Jam 2:23) Thus there is no difference between the O.T. economy and the N.T. economy; all are redeemed by grace through faith in Christ, alone.

Secondly, this "baptism of desire" is totally contrary to scriptural teaching. (cf. Gen 6:5; 8:21; Isa 9:13; 53:1; 64:6; Jh 3:19; Rom 3:11; 8:7, 8; 1Cor 2:14; Eph 2:2, 3; 4:17-19; et al) NO MAN seeks after God. The only desire that natural men have is for sin and to serve the lusts of their flesh. The heart of the natural man is deceitful beyond all measure and wholly corrupt. There is absolutely nothing which the natural/unregenerate man can do which is in conformity to the law of God and thus he cannot do anything which is pleasing to God.

In His Grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#20193 - Thu Dec 23, 2004 9:08 PM Re: Some meat for the dogs . . . [Re: Pilgrim]  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Secondly, this "baptism of desire" is totally contrary to scriptural teaching. (cf. Gen 6:5;

Well, let's look at these verses a bit:

[color:"0000FF"][b]Genesis 6:5-10 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.[/color]

We seem to have a contradiction here. On the one hand, you point to the verses which state that mankind had only evil thoughts continually, and that is what they seem to say on the face of it, but then we see that Noah was a just man who walked with God. This seems to be a weak text to insist upon Total Depravity, seeing that Noah did not partake of the evil of that generation.


8:21;

[color:"0000FF"]Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.[/color]

Again, I must ask if God judges man as being wicked because of the imagination of his heart, or because of what he actually does regarding those temptations. The flesh is certainly opposed to God, and redemption is that work of Chrsit which puts to death our flesh and creates us a new creature. But if we sin, even after salvation, are we not then counted as sinners since we have done evil? Scripture seems to think so:

[color:"0000FF"]Ezekiel 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.[/color]

A righteous man TURNS FROM HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. And how does he do this? By mere thoughts, which are nothing more than the disordered passions of the flesh, or by actually commiting sin?


Isa 9:13;

Not a proof text for total depravity. It is talking about the Lord's judgment against the nation which had turned its back on the Lord.

53:1;

[color:"0000FF"]Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?[/color]

This hardly qualfies for a proof text for total depravity.

64:6;

[color:"0000FF"]Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.[/color]

The lament of the prophet over the condition of his nation is not the same as God declaring that all mankind is totally depraved. I do believe that you are reading into the text here.


Jh 3:19;

[color:"0000FF"]John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.[/color]

Again, reading into the text. It does not say that ALL MEN loved darkness rather than light. We have, in fact, a rather sure word from the Lord that this is not the case at all. We see that the Wise Men came seeking the One Who is the Light of the World. We see righteous Zacharias and Elizabeth (Luke 1: 5-6). And, of course, there was the Blessed Virgin Mary. Scripture records for us the actions of both sinners and saints. We cannot simply state that all men are totally depraved because of the sins of the many. I would state that it is indeed lamentably easy to sin, even as a believer. But that can just as easily prove that we are damaged in our wills and, like St. Paul said in Romans 7, unable to always do that which we know we should do.


Rom 3:11;

[color:"0000FF"]Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.[/color]

This is a proof text for the very thing I have been saying here. This verse is taken out of context -- and I mean COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTEXT -- from the Psalm that St. Paul is quoting. Please go to Psalm 14 and read the first three verses. This is what St. Paul is quoting and if you study what is being said here, the SUBJECTS of this verse [color:"FF0000"]are the wicked as contrasted to the righteous[/color] It is the wicked the Psalmist is speaking of when he charges that there is none that seeketh God. That same Psalm goes on to say that God is in the generation of the righteous.


8:7, 8;

[color:"0000FF"]Romans 8:7-10 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.[/color]

This is a much stronger proof text, at least on the surface, to prove your point. My only question would be this: what does St. Paul mean by the carnal mind? Is that the mind of all mankind without God? Or is the carnal mind one of two minds one can have in regards to God -- i.e., the carnal mind and then the spiritual mind? I see St. Paul saying here that those in Christ are not in the carnal mind, right? But then, how is it that we sin? I think this is the struggle of all Christians -- to both appropriate and live out that which is reality in the spiritual realm, i.e, that the flesh no longer has control over us.


1Cor 2:14;

[color:"0000FF"]1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.[/color]

Another very strong verse for your point. You show me that I need to do some further study on these points to see why it is that the Early Fathers did not come up with a Calvinistic framework such as the Reformers did. In other words, what is their understanding of these verses?


Eph 2:2, 3

[color:"0000FF"]Ephesians 2:2-3 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.[/color]

Again, very good point from scripture. I am sure that somewhere there is an answer to this. I just need to find it. Remember, anyone can make the scriptures say just about anything they wish to. That is the foundation of all the numerous denominations which we see.

Thank you for provoking me to both thought and study.


Cordially in Christ,


Brother Ed

#20194 - Thu Dec 23, 2004 9:30 PM Re: Some meat for the dogs . . .  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote
Another very strong verse for your point. You show me that I need to do some further study on these points to see why it is that the Early Fathers did not come up with a Calvinistic framework such as the Reformers did. In other words, what is their understanding of these verses?


I quoted some of the early church writers in support of reformed soteriology. When will you drop your erroneous argument? I also pointed out that because the matter of salvation was not dealt with in depth prior to the reformation does not mean calvinism is wrong. It's an illogical conclusion.


God bless,

william

Page 3 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 16 guests, and 121 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
drewk, patrice, Robert1962, Ron, billmcginnis
921 Registered Users
Shout Box
December
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Popular Topics(Views)
666,285 Gospel truth
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.052s Queries: 16 (0.004s) Memory: 2.7287 MB (Peak: 3.0377 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-12-16 07:11:41 UTC