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#20210 - Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:45 AM Re: You are confused.... .  

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Quote
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Now where would they git such a dopey idea as that?


Let me help you. It's called scholarship. The kind that checks context.

Quote

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (KJV)

John Gill
but is longsuffering to us-ward: not to all the individuals of human nature, for the persons intended by us are manifestly distinguished from "some men" in the text, and from scoffers, mocking at the promise of Christ's coming, in the context, 2Pe_3:3; and are expressly called beloved, 2Pe_3:1; and God's longsuffering towards them is their salvation, 2Pe_3:15, nor is it true of all men, that God is not willing that any of them should perish, and that everyone of them should come to repentance, since many of them do perish in their sins, and do not come to repentance, which would not be the case, if his determining will was otherwise; besides, a society or company of men are designed, to which the apostle himself belonged, and of which he was a part; and who are described, in his epistles, as the elect of God, called out of darkness, into marvellous light, and having obtained like precious faith with the apostles; and must be understood either of God's elect among the Jews, for Peter was a Jew, and they were Jews he wrote to; and then the sense is, that the delay of Christ's coming is not owing to any slackness in him, but to his longsuffering to his elect among the Jews, being unwilling that any of that number among them should perish, but that all of them repent of their sins, and believe in him;


The very context of the sentence is to whom? "us-ward" Here is an article that helps to show what all means in it's context for this passage, 2Peter expounded upon.

Quote

Tit 2:11 For1063 the3588 grace5485 of God2316 that bringeth salvation4992 hath appeared2014 to all3956 men,444 (KJV+)

G2014
epiphainō
Thayer Definition:
1) to show to or upon
1a) to bring to light
2) to appear, become visible
2a) of stars
3) to become clearly known, to show one’s self
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G1909 and G5316
Citing in TDNT: 9:7, 1244


I don't see how appeared means saved.

Quote

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (KJV)


When ALL isn't absolute

Quote

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (KJV)


Since you have nullified the contextual meaning of every other verse you posted, I had no doubt this would be the same. Here is some exegesis to help clarify, 1Tim 2:4 teaches limited atonement.


God bless,

william

#20211 - Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:13 PM Re: You are confused.... .  
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Of course not. But you do realize that all leaders are not the same and not all have excellent administrative skills. Go back and read a history of the popes. Some took absolutely no heretical garbage at all. They were strong men and acted like it. Others, while perhaps better at prayer and contemplative issues, were not given to such strength of character when it came to issues of administration.


THEN WHY ARE THEY ADMINISTRATING? If nothing else, it is a sign of INEPTITUDE FOR THE OFFICE.

Quote
Just so we are on the same page, would you kindly define "federalist" for me. I believe you are referring to covenantal headship, but I wish to be sure.


Yes, the federal headship of Adam over fallen mankind and the federal headship of Christ over the church.

Quote
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Now where would they git such a dopey idea as that?


You may see William's post on your Scriptural citations.

Quote
In other words (if I am following this line of thinking correctly) was Satan made the federal head over mankind in place of Adam? Is that right?


The Eastern Orthodox do not accept federalism from anything I've studied of their understanding of the atonement. Satan was the owner of men following the fall, but God paid off Satan with Christ's death. Of course, Christ's resurrection cheated Satan of his payment. That's the ransom theory of the atonement.

Quote
They are every bit as Eastern Orthodox as the churches in Byzantium prior to 1054 were Eastern Orthodox. In fact, one might really say that we are the REAL Eastern Orthodoxy, since we practice the same eclessiology which was held from the time of Christ up to the schism of 1054 AD.


There was properly no such thing as Eastern Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism until that schism, just as there was no Protestantism until the Reformation.

Quote
Now it is you who are being ridiculous. Baptists consider baptism an ORDINANCE whereas Presbyterians consider baptism a sacrament which confers or promises grace. If you are going to be Reformed, for heaven's sake at least get that right!!


REGARDLESS, the NUMBER is agreed upon: two, Baptism and the Lord's Supper. And, frankly, the Zwinglian view of the Baptists is also historically present within the Reformed camp.

Quote
As for the issue of definition of the Eucharist, the Orthodox never had the heresy of Protestantism within their ranks, therefore, there was no need to define what we both MUTUALLY BELIEVE -- that the elements, upon consecration by a validly ordained priest, become the very same Body and Blood which was upon the Cross. Ask any Orthodox some time.


Firstly, the Roman Church defined the doctrine of transubstantiation prior to and apart from Prostestantism. Secondly, as the doctrine itself is defined in the Roman Church, the Eastern Orthodox do not embrace it. They accept that the elements become the body and blood by the ministrations of the Spirit, but they do not define the process as Rome does.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#20212 - Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:47 PM Re: You are confused.... .  

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Okay....assuming that you accept the concept of the federal headship of Jesus the Christ....let me ask you this:

Is Jesus, as perfect man, the federal head over all mankind, or only over the elect?

Also, would it be good to start another thread? This one is getting rather clogged.

Brother Ed

#20213 - Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:46 AM Re: Some meat for the dogs . . . [Re: CovenantInBlood]  
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Whats wrong is that when our sovereign God is thirsty He creates His own water!

2K 19:28 Because thy rage against me and thy tumult has come upon my ears, therefore I will put hooks in thy nose. and bridle in thy lips, and I will turn thee back by the way by which thou camest.

Acts 4:27,28 For a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou has anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Jer 19:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications I will lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, therein they will not stumble; for I am a Father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Exe. 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments and do them.

Denny


Denny

Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
#20214 - Wed Jan 05, 2005 9:50 AM Re: Some meat for the dogs . . .  
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Dear O/Papist

Nice costume!

May I ask why you are here in this forum?

Is it not for those that believe in the words of Scripture?

It seems to me that those that post here believe and take very seriously what the Word of God in Scripture has to say to us, for instance, "Call no man your Father upon earth -" Matthew 23:9

I am not trying to be mean, just curious as to why you do not go and twist our precious Scripture at some "Mary" website.

"Cursed be the love and cursed be the tolerance that takes the Word of God to the stake." Martin Luther

and if you don't like that one -

"The Roman Catholic Church is a slaughterhouse of souls"

or how 'bout

The Roman Church constitutions, through their sensless accumulation, bring Jewish vexations upon the conscience.
John Calvin Inst 2-10-13

Regards

Denny

#20215 - Wed Jan 05, 2005 12:00 PM Re: Some meat for the dogs . . . [Re: Adopted]  

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Well.....

I was doing some research on Preterist Eschatology and followed some links to this site. Thought I might find some discussion and further information on the Preterist view, since it is held by many Reformed Presbyterians.

I also enjoy discussing the covenant of God (a most scriptural term - terrible abused by Calvinists) and when I saw the discussion on the covenant, decided to see if I could join in.

I converted to the Catholic Faith four years ago because I found out some things I was never told in the PCA:

1. Catholic doctrine, especially that of "baptismal regeneration" and the "real presence" in the Eucharist, was taught from the very beginning of Christianity. A reading of the Early Fathers makes this abundantly clear.

2. God deals with mankind through the paradigm of the eternal covenant. This covenant is familial in nature rather than legal, as is taught by those who are Reformed.

3. Only the Catholic Faith meets all the requirements and principles of covenantalism as found in scripture.

Now, if you wish to discuss this, with scripture, I will be happy to engage you. Pick a subject, start a thread and let's talk.

However, if all you wish to do is further engage in insult, ad hominum, and perjorative attack, I shall simply ignore further posts from you.

The choice is yours, sir. Everyone else here has been quite courteous to this papist althewhile vehemently disagreeing with me.

Cordially in Christ,


Brother Ed

#20216 - Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:01 PM Re: Some meat for the dogs . . .  
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ad hominum? I only complemented you on your costume.

I would be happy to discuss Scripture with you except we have no common ground to start as the RCC does not believe in "Sola Scriptura".

The axiom of the RCC is "Tradition" which has led to saint and Mary worship, idolatry with idols and images, and a cannibalistic mass.

All of this, of course is sweetened by the blasphemous claims of your so-called "Vicar of Christ on earth". This is the very same pope who has "baptized" the 21st century as the "Century of Mary".

Why on earth would someone be courteous to a person as intelligent as you that believes in a church such as this. A church that has murderered millions of Christians and others who refuse to bow to her heresies and yet still has hidden deep in her "treasure canons" an unrepentent willingness to do so again. I can almost hear your pope praying to his non-existent god to "Please give me this murderous earthly power once more".

This is indeed an attack on the RCC and you are absolutely right, - we have nothing to talk about.


Denny

Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
#20217 - Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:10 PM Re: Some meat for the dogs . . . [Re: Adopted]  

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Welcome to the boards, Adopted. We are courteous because that is the rule. We can disagree while not being disagreeable. Enjoy your stay. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />


God bless,

william

#20218 - Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:10 PM Re: Some meat for the dogs . . .  
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We are courteous because that is the rule.


Yes, and that's the only reason we're courteous <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
#20219 - Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:31 PM Re: Some meat for the dogs . . . [Re: Adopted]  
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Danny,

Quote
"The Roman Catholic Church is a slaughterhouse of souls"


Now that's a good one, but OrthodoxCatholic is Greek Orthodox, not RCC. Not the same thing, but their camp is not THAT far away from Tiber...

Eastern Orthodoxy


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
#20220 - Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:37 PM Re: Some meat for the dogs . . . [Re: MarieP]  
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Marie,

Quote
SemperReformanda said:
Danny,

Quote
"The Roman Catholic Church is a slaughterhouse of souls"


Now that's a good one, but OrthodoxCatholic is Greek Orthodox, not RCC. Not the same thing, but their camp is not THAT far away from Tiber...

Eastern Orthodoxy


Actually, OrthodoxCatholic is a Byzantine Rite Catholic. That is, while using the traditional Eastern liturgy, his church is in communion with Rome and grants the Pope a special authority over the church. Eastern Orthodoxy is not in communion with Rome and repudiates the Pope's assumed position.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#20221 - Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:45 PM Re: Some meat for the dogs . . . [Re: Adopted]  
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Adopted,

Quote
Why on earth would someone be courteous to a person as intelligent as you that believes in a church such as this.


While I also consider the Roman Church to be apostate, that's no reason to be discourteous to her members, however intelligent they may be. I daresay most of us here disagree very strongly with OrthodoxCatholic, but we treat him respectfully because that's the right thing to do.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#20222 - Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:28 PM Re: Some meat for the dogs . . . [Re: CovenantInBlood]  
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Interesting.

OrthodoxCatholic mentioned earlier he was Greek Orthodox, and according to this page, Greek Orthodox is a form of Eastrn Orthodox.

Unless Greek/Eastern Orthodox is different than Greek Catholic...<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
#20223 - Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:52 PM Re: Some meat for the dogs . . . [Re: MarieP]  
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I do apologize for breaking the rules to all concerned.

I lost my temper again and who can bridle the tongue?

Thanks for all of your well deserved rebukes. I should be more faithful.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24


Denny

Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
#20224 - Wed Jan 05, 2005 7:41 PM Re: Some meat for the dogs . . . [Re: MarieP]  
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While the liturgy the Byzantine Catholics use is indistinguishable from the litrugy of the Eastern Orthodox, because they are in full communion with Rome neither Rome nor the Eastern Orthodox churches regard Byzantine Catholics as Eastern Orthodox. Here's a page that gives a little history: http://www.byzcath.org/Faith-and-Worship/Who-Are-Byzantine-Catholics.htm


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
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