I had noticed in an earlier article that Pilgrim shared his reason for getting re-baptized as a believer. He had two unbelieving parents. I was baptized in a presbyterian church by a very God fearing mother but a unbelieving father. My mother went to the Lord when I was 8. After that, the only time I went to church was at Easter. So when I became a believer, I had a strong desire to be re-baptized. But I do believe in infant baptism. I am assured of my faith so there really is no reason for me to be re-baptized. But as I was thinking about this tonight, I started to try to understand why it was that I and many other Paedobaptists are not really firm in their belief.
First I just want to say that I do not intend this to be a thread to argue infant baptism. Please keep this within the topic of infant baptism only. Thank you.
So my conclusion to why there is doubt is....... ( ok I know this is a no-brainer but I'm a little slow sometimes )..... The Church! So I'm going to try just express how I feel with my limited knowledge here.
First, the liberalism that's infecting the church today.
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At the end of the last century theological liberalism told us that we needed to make Christianity attractive, or acceptable, to its "cultured despisers." This type of concern was not new. The very tension of "being in the world" but "not of the world" has always been with the church. What was new was the way liberalism decided to advance the church before the world, namely by reinterpreting the message of the cross in the light of the world’s understanding and belief system. The question still is: How close can we get to the world and keep a distinctive message and ministry?
One of the most blatant examples of the compromise which flows out of this can be seen in 1966 World Council of Churches dictum: "The world must set the agenda for the church." I would suggest that this idea, formulated in the crucible of ecumenical dialogue between light and darkness, is not far from the "seeker sensitive" approach adopted through the Church Growth ideology of contemporary evangelicals. My statement is strong for sure. How can I make it? Because of what can be seen in:
(1) The present infatuation with marketing techniques freely used and openly acknowledged supports my conclusion. Consider these nostrums taken from the literature of major "seeker-sensitive" churches in our decade:
"Marketing is essential for a business to operate successfully."
"The Bible is one of the world’s great marketing texts."
"The Bible does not warn against the evils of marketing."
"So it behooves us not to spend time bickering about techniques and process."
"Think of your church not as a religious meeting place, but as a service agency — an entity that exists to satisfy people’s needs."
"The marketing plan is the Bible of the marketing game; everything happens in the life of the product because the plan wills it."
"It is also critical that we keep in mind a fundamental principle of Christian communication: the audience, not the message, is sovereign."
"The Contemporary Church" An Essay by Dr. John H. Armstrong
So it's now methodology over theology. I am currently a member of a PCUSA church. ( very soon to be switching to a PCA church as soon as my deacon term is up ) It is daily heading for a full blown seeker sensitive, mega-church program. Just the other day at our annual elder and deacon dinner, our pastor made a speech where he proclaimed that the year of 2005 would continue to show progress in "thinking outside of the box" and that we would be getting our espresso machine and continue to create byroads into the community and provide an energetic, non-threating worship style that would encourage seekers to feel welcome.
Unfortunately I feel I was the only one that didn't accept his views. Everyone else seemed very pleased about our recent church growth. I am constantly being told about how great the contemporary worship service is and how awesome our pastors and our church is. But all I can see is more and more people being accepted as members and baptized without truly having a saving faith. How can I say this? Because the Gospel isn't being preached or taught.
The argument I hear is always this. Our Pastor even said this in his speech. That the Conservative approach isn't working. That the little PCA church down the street is dry and isn't attracting any new members. Something must be wrong, It's not growing. So we need to take the pragmatic approach to what we need to do to attract the world..... ahh we know, we'll become like the world, yeah thats it!
second, The sacrament of baptism needs to be held with a very high standard.
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1st. In the case of adults, or persons arrived at the condition of independent responsible agency, the presumptive ground of fitness for admission to the sealing ordinances of the Church is a competent knowledge of the plan of salvation, a credible profession of personal faith, and a walk and conversation consistent therewith. The amount of knowledge requisite must vary with the general intelligence of the subject. But it is evident that no person can be a Christian by profession who is absolutely ignorant of his own guilt and pollution and of Christ’s meritorious work in our behalf. And, on the other hand, it is no less evident that multitudes of Christ’s children are saved who have attained only to the vaguest and most elementary knowledge of the essentials of the gospel. A “credible profession” does not mean a profession of faith which compels credence, or which convinces the observer that it is genuine; but it is simply the opposite of the incredible—it is a confession that can be believed. Neither ministers of the gospel nor elders are able to read the secrets of the human heart, or to judge of character. Therefore, the great Head of the Church has not laid upon us the responsibility. The responsibility of professing Christ rests upon the individual professor. Every man who has the competent knowledge, and who makes a profession not incredible, and whose life is in conformity therewith, has a presumptive right to come to the sacraments. He does not need to prove his way in. If the session or pastor exclude him, they or he must show sufficient positive evidence of his not being a Christian to keep him out. This plain principle is one of great importance, the violation of which has brought great evil upon the Church. As the minister and church-session have no power of reading the heart of the applicant, so it must be a great evil if they officially form and express any judgment in the case. If they do pretend to listen to and judge of the value of the experience recited, they profanely assume to possess the prerogatives which belong to God alone, and they lead deluded souls to put an unwarrantable confidence in the worthless endorsement of the church authorities. It is by reason of this that so many are asleep in Zion. Each man ought to be thrown back upon his own unshared responsibility, and made “to examine himself, that so he may eat of this bread.”
On the other hand, it is the great duty of those church- officers to whom Christ has committed the keys of the visible kingdom of heaven on earth to proclaim the truths of the gospel, to impress the resulting duties upon the consciences of men, and to set forth the high conditions of Christian communion which God exacts.
2nd. The children of all such persons as, on the ground of their own credible profession of faith, are received as members of the visible Church are to be baptized as members of the visible Church, because, presumptively, heirs of the blessings of the covenant of grace. The divinely appointed and guaranteed presumption is, if the parents, then. the children. This is not an invariable law binding God, but it is a prevailingly probable law, basing the authorized and rational recognition and treatment of such children by the Church as heirs of the promises.
Baptism by A.A. Hodge.
In the church I belong too, there is no strong Gospel being preached, there is really no Gospel being preached at all, not one that involves the seriousness of our sins and that of repentance. Preaching about repentance and condemnation, Satan and a literal hell is a definitely not preached. That's too offensive.
We have an inquiry class as well. It's a joke, a complete joke. It isn't convicting at all. I was invited to come and make a presentation for the Mens Ministry at an inquirers class a while back. Well I started with a short proclamation of the Gospel and every member there looked at me with surprise. I could tell everyone in the room except myself was uncomfortable. They were being "preached too." God forbid.
I've also been through elder training. It's a joke as well. Absolutely no accountability. The confessions of faith were lightly skimmed over and then tossed out the window. No one in my church cares about learning the confessions. To them they are way too complicated and outdated. No one cares about doctrine and theology is for seminary students.
So I now understand why infant baptism is very confusing for allot of people. I also think this is a strong argument for the Credobaptist. In our times today, the church has broken away from traditional reformed orthodoxy.
This is why I'm moving to the PCA as quickly as I can and I will never look back. I want to raise my children in a community of like minded believers who know their faith and who support each other in doctrine and creed. Yeah there is a reason that the PCA church down the street is smaller. Because we are living in a corrupt culture. People don't want to message of Christ preached to them, they want their ears tickled and their emotional needs met.
I for one will raise my children with a firm foundation. They will not have any excuse to have any doubts as to whether they should be re-baptized or not.
Just some personal thoughts. May His peace and grace be with you.
Y.B.I.C,
Dave.
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Galatians 2:16
So I now understand why infant baptism is very confusing for allot of people. I also think this is a strong argument for the Credobaptist. In our times today, the church has broken away from traditional reformed orthodoxy.
I would disagree that this “is a strong argument for the Credobaptist,” as (1) many credos have similar (or worse) problems as you have in your church and baptize anyway, and (2) they baptize outside the proper covenantal system that has been established in Scripture.
Biblical Doctrines are biblical truths meant to be understood and believed by the Church and others profaning their use does not invalidate them. We do not need to change correct doctrine just because some in the PCUSA (or other denomination) are misapplying other truths: not preaching the Gospel, et. al. Thus, the problem here is not with infant baptism, but with involment with and submission to: no Gospel being preached, easy believism, no discipline, et. al….
With all due respect, I understand that you are leaving after your deacon term and going to a PCA Church, but what “biblical commitment” do you have to an apostate Church “presently”? Where in Scripture do you find it necessary to submit your family to false doctrine(s)?
I would disagree that this “is a strong argument for the Credobaptist,” as (1) many credos have similar (or worse) problems as you have in your church and baptize anyway, and (2) they baptize outside the proper covenantal system that has been established in Scripture.
Please let me clarify. What I was trying to say is that, I believe that the Credobaptist argue that believers baptism strengthens the church. I didn't intend that statement to sound like I was advocating believers baptism. But I agree with you J.E. If you really take the time to look at the condition of the churches who practice believers baptism, the same problems exist. But I believe that an advocate of believers baptism will be prone to use that as their defense. Of course that is just what I've perceived from reading arguments against infant baptism. I could very well be wrong.
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Biblical Doctrines are biblical truths meant to be understood and believed by the Church and others profaning their use does not invalidate them. We do not need to change correct doctrine just because some in the PCUSA (or other denomination) are misapplying other truths: not preaching the Gospel, et. al. Thus, the problem here is not with infant baptism, but with involvement with and submission to: no Gospel being preached, easy believism, no discipline, et. al….
Yes correct! This is what I was trying to convey. My title of this post might have been misleading. I didn't mean that there was a problem "with" infant baptism today, I just meant the "issues that people have" with infant baptism today. Like I stated, this is a thread for people who believe in infant baptism like myself. But as a believer of infant baptism, I've had problems associated with this doctrine. I didn't fully understand why it was that I believed what I now believe. Which is the case in almost everything that concerns doctrine. It's often preached about but not explained. So we start off believing but not really understanding. Yes... I affirm the importance of Creeds and Confessions. We need to grow in the Community of Christ, like minded, or how are we supposed to go on to maturity. So I am advocating sound biblical teaching.
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With all due respect, I understand that you are leaving after your deacon term and going to a PCA Church, but what “biblical commitment” do you have to an apostate Church “presently”? Where in Scripture do you find it necessary to submit your family to false doctrine(s)?
I have problems with my church and the PCUSA, but I haven't really considered them "Apostate." There are good Christians at my current church of whom I fully expect to meet in Glory. I've made a commitment of service and I intend on keeping it. It wouldn't be right for me to abandon my position and my flock. Plus, another couple of months isn't a long time considering how long it's taken for a change to fully come about in myself and my family. But I do appreciate your honesty in the matter J.E. and I appreciate your counsel. As your sig states, we are reformed and always reforming.
Y.B.I.C,
Dave.
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Galatians 2:16
