Total Depravity is probably the most misunderstood tenet of Christianity. When Christians speak of humans as "totally depraved," they are making an extensive, rather than an intensive statement. The effect of the fall upon man is that sin has extended to every part of his personality -- his thinking, his emotions, and his will. Not necessarily that he is intensely sinful, but that sin has extended to his entire being. The unregenerate (unsaved) man is dead in his sins.
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Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:… (KJV)
Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel. This is why Total Depravity has also been called "Total Inability." The man without a knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ.
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Eph 2:1-7 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. (KJV)
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Joh 1:6-11 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. (KJV)
Joh 1:6-14 - John the Baptist came to bear witness concerning Jesus. Nothing more fully shows the darkness of men's minds, than that when the Light had appeared, there needed a witness to call attention to it. Christ was the true Light; that great Light which deserves to be called so. By his Spirit and grace he enlightens all that are enlightened to salvation; and those that are not enlightened by him, perish in darkness. Christ was in the world when he took our nature upon him, and dwelt among us. Many say that they are Christ's own, yet do not receive him, because they will not part with their sins, nor have him to reign over them. All the children of God are born again. This new birth is through the word of God as the means, and by the Spirit of God as the Author. By his Divine presence Christ always was in the world. But now that the fullness of time was come, he was, after another manner, God manifested in the flesh. (Matthew Henry)
Why did they reject him? Because they did not know him. Sin is a two edged sword; It both renders the flesh dead AS WELL AS the spirit. It creates death in all who commit it, which is all of mankind.
We read in John Calvin's Institutes,
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“The recesses in which concupiscence lies hid are so deep and tortuous that they easily elude our view; and hence the Apostle had good reason for saying, "I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." For, if it be not brought forth from its lurking places, it miserably destroys in secret before its fatal sting is discerned. Thus the Law is a kind of mirror. As in a mirror we discover any stains upon our face, so in the Law we behold, first, our impotence; then, in consequence of it, our iniquity; and, finally, the curse, as the consequence of both.” (II.vii.5-7a).
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Gen 3:8-13 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. (KJV)
What is fallen man's solution to the approach of the Judge? He retains his pride and self-reliance and runs from God. He looks away from judgment and instead would use his fig leaf religion to try to deny the fact of judgment. The irony here is that man's self-salvation is his self-damnation. What he does to save himself - to run from God, is the essence of the very wrath he is trying to avoid! Hell is "away from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thes. 1:9). To save himself, he separates from God, but separation from God is the essence of death, the substance of hell. He shows that he actually wants and deserves death! He complains about his circumstances and his emotional discomfort. His solution? Remove God. Suppress the truth in unrighteousness. Exclude God from his thoughts. Discard His law. Ignore sin. He is not a pitiable victim, but a criminal who hates God!
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Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." (New American Standard Bible)
Joh 6:44 - Except the Father draw him (ean mh elkush auton). Negative condition of third class with ean mh and first aorist active subjunctive of elkuw, older form elkw, to drag like a net (Joh_21:6), or sword (Joh_18:10), or men (Act_16:19), to draw by moral power (Joh_12:32), as in Jer_31:3. Surw, the other word to drag (Act_8:3; Act_14:19) is not used of Christ's drawing power. The same point is repeated in verse Joh_6:65. The approach of the soul to God is initiated by God, the other side of verse Joh_6:37. See Rom_8:7 for the same doctrine and use of oude dunatai like oudeiv dunatai here. (Robertson’s Word Pictures)
A man is in a box. The box is completely enclosed. The box has no light in it. The box is sound proof. The box has no windows or doors. This man lives in “his” box. The man lives in total darkness. Nothing from the outside gets in and nothing inside gets out. Now in this box this man makes all his own decisions based on the knowledge of the things in “his” box, or from his “nature”.
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1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (KJV)
The man above is one who is dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1). The man is blind to the things in the outside world (2 Cor 4:4). Unredeemed man loves darkness rather than light (John 1:4-9) for this is all he really knows, for this is all that is in his box. Though light appears all around his sin nature he will not comprehend it (John 1:5). As Christ demonstrated by His many healing miracles, man, because of his sin nature, is blind, deaf, crippled, speechless, diseased, and is even dead. Until God alone heals this inability of the soul of man he will remain in this condition. Man needs the Great Physician. God cannot in this be judged that He is unjust because He does not save them, for the man is free and is making his own decisions in his own box and he chooses not Christ: “He came unto his own, and his own received him not” (John 1:11). The natural man is in “his” box. Nothing comes in or goes out. His own sin has enclosed him. He is dead to all God has and makes his decision freely, based upon his own darkness, but will never freely choose Christ, for Christ is not in his box (Rom 3:11).
We believe that all are sinners (Romans 3:23) and unable by human performance to earn, deserve, or merit salvation (Titus 3:5). We believe that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and that apart from God's grace, no one can be saved (Ephesians 2:8-9). We believe that none are righteous, or capable of doing good (Romans 3:10-12), and that apart from the conviction and regeneration of the Holy Spirit, none can be saved (John 1:12-13; 16:8-11; I Peter 1:23-25). Mankind is clearly fallen and lost in sin.
Good teaching Brother. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Dave.
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Galatians 2:16
Job 40:6-14 Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous? Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him? Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty. Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him. Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place. Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret. Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee. (KJV)
Who can save himself? Man is totally depraved and cannot.
The man without a knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ.
Precisely, that is what is called the Incarnation and the redemptive work of Christ for mankind.
Eph 2: 1-7 has to be taken in account with the other texts regarding redemption. Paul is speaking to believers here, but they were part of the unredeemed before Christ came. He came for the express purpose to save mankind from death and sin. He freed mankind to make that choice to live IN Christ.
John 1:6-11 speaks eloquently of the redemptive work of Christ for all men. All men who came into this world. Do you know of any who didn't?
Matthew Henry is just giving his personal opinion here because it speaks against what the Bible actually teaches and what the quotes you used just above his commentary. They are contradictions.
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By his Spirit and grace he enlightens all that are enlightened to salvation; and those that are not enlightened by him, perish in darkness
He enlightens every man that comes into this world. It is our choice that separates us from light and darkness. It would be kind of rediculous to think that Christ came to save the world and failed. That He would purposely fail because in that He came to redeem sinners, but actually only enlightened some.
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Why did they reject him? Because they did not know him. Sin is a two edged sword; It both renders the flesh dead AS WELL AS the spirit. It creates death in all who commit it, which is all of mankind.
It no longer renders flesh dead. Flesh was dead, but Christ overcame death so that His highest created being will not perish. All men will be immortal. But, yes, sin separates us from God, even believers. That is why we need and seek forgiveness.
Your quote of John Calvin is not even addressing the status of mankind after Christ came. He is addressing the plight of mankind before Christ and His redemptive work.
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What is fallen man's solution to the approach of the Judge? He retains his pride and self-reliance and runs from God. He looks away from judgment and instead would use his fig leaf religion to try to deny the fact of judgment. The irony here is that man's self-salvation is his self-damnation. What he does to save himself - to run from God, is the essence of the very wrath he is trying to avoid! Hell is "away from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thes. 1:9). To save himself, he separates from God, but separation from God is the essence of death, the substance of hell. He shows that he actually wants and deserves death! He complains about his circumstances and his emotional discomfort. His solution? Remove God. Suppress the truth in unrighteousness. Exclude God from his thoughts. Discard His law. Ignore sin. He is not a pitiable victim, but a criminal who hates God!
Again, this is right after the fall. What do you expect. This is the reason Christ came. That is, to correct the fall. To enable mankind to again have communion with Him. This is not his status after His redemptive work.
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Now in this box this man makes all his own decisions based on the knowledge of the things in “his” box, or from his “nature”.
Again, that is man's condition before Christ came. You use the word nature. Christ redeemed man's nature. He did that through the Incarnation of Christ. That is the specific purpose of the Incarnation. Since all men are human beings they are all effected by Christ's work. Once that is completed, God is now able to effect His call upon all men. His spirit is poured out upon all flesh, not some or only a few. ALL FLESH.
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We believe that all are sinners (Romans 3:23) and unable by human performance to earn, deserve, or merit salvation (Titus 3:5). We believe that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and that apart from God's grace, no one can be saved (Ephesians 2:8-9). We believe that none are righteous, or capable of doing good (Romans 3:10-12), and that apart from the conviction and regeneration of the Holy Spirit, none can be saved (John 1:12-13; 16:8-11; I Peter 1:23-25). Mankind is clearly fallen and lost in sin.
No problem here, except that this does not support total depravity either. The wages of sin is still death. If we believe not, we are condemned already. Spiritual, eternal death. No one denies that the whole is of Grace. But Christ redeemed His creation so that man could be in Union with Him once again. God calls, man either rejects or accepts. We, that is all men, will be held accountable for that decision and what they did with the Gift of Christ. I don't see total depravity after Christ. That would mean Christ failed in His mission.
Actually by the definition you gave of Total Depravity, that it means all of man was affected by sin, this is still true of the regenerated man. You will either need a new definition or accept the Biblical teaching regarding sin.
He came for the express purpose to save mankind from death and sin. He freed mankind to make that choice to live IN Christ.
I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways. Did Christ come to actually save or only make salvation a mere possibility? If the purpose of Christs death was to actually make an atonement, actually redeem, draw all to Him infallibly, He has failed. Since God is incapable of failure, Christs death atoned for all the sins it was supposed to.
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John 1:6-11 speaks eloquently of the redemptive work of Christ for all men. All men who came into this world. Do you know of any who didn't?
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Joh 1:6-13 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (KJV)
Context is everything. The only ones enlightened unto salvation were those in verse 13, "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
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Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (NASB)
Albert Barnes Notes Joh 1:13 - Which were born - This doubtless refers to the “new birth,” or to the great change in the sinner’s mind called regeneration or conversion. It means that they did not become the children of God in virtue of their natural birth, or because they were the children of “Jews,” or because they were descended from pious parents. The term “to be born” is often used to denote this change. Compare Joh_3:3-8; 1Jo_2:29. It illustrates clearly and beautifully this great change. The natural birth introduces us to life. The new birth is the beginning of spiritual life. Before, the sinner is “dead” in sins Eph_2:1; now he begins truly to live. And as the natural birth is the beginning of life, so to be born of God is to be introduced to real life, to light, to happiness, and to the favor of God. The term expresses at once the “greatness” and the “nature” of the change. Not of blood - The Greek word is plural; not of “bloods” - that is, not of “man.” Compare Mat_27:4. The Jews prided themselves on being the descendants of Abraham, Mat_3:9. They supposed that it was proof of the favor of God to be descended from such an illustrious ancestry. In this passage this notion is corrected. It is not because men are descended from an illustrious or pious parentage that they are entitled to the favor of God; or perhaps the meaning may be, not because there is a union of illustrious lines of ancestry or “bloods” in them. The law of Christ’s kingdom is different from what the Jews supposed. Compare 1Pe_1:23. It was necessary to be “born of God” by regeneration. Possibly, however, it may mean that they did not become children of God by the bloody rite of “circumcision,” as many of the Jews supposed they did. This is agreeable to the declaration of Paul in Rom_2:28-29.Nor of the will of the flesh - Not by natural generation. Nor of the will of man - This may refer, perhaps, to the will of man in adopting a child, as the former phrases do to the natural birth; and the design of using these three phrases may have been to say that they became the children of God neither in virtue of their descent from illustrious parents like Abraham, nor by their natural birth, nor by being “adopted” by a pious man. None of the ways by which we become entitled to the privileges of “children” among people can give us a title to be called the sons of God. It is not by human power or agency that men become children of the Most High. But of God - That is, God produces the change, and confers the privilege of being cawed his children. The heart is changed by his power. No unaided effort of man, no works of ours, can produce this change. At the same time, it is true that no man is renewed who does not himself “desire” and “will” to be a believer; for the effect of the change is on his “will” Psa_110:3, and no one is changed who does not strive to enter in at the strait gate, Phi_2:12.
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Your quote of John Calvin is not even addressing the status of mankind after Christ came. He is addressing the plight of mankind before Christ and His redemptive work.
Most of the passages I offered were after Christ's death. I couldn't really understand the rest of your post. You also didn't offer any scriptural support or exegesis.
You Said "I don't see total depravity after Christ. That would mean Christ failed in His mission."
You are the one saying that Christ failed in His mission, because you insist that man has the ability to choose good from evil, and deny the gift of salvation. If Christ only accomplished the possibility of salvation, then it is hypothetically possible than NO ONE would choose to accept the gift and Christ died for nothing!
Christ came to redeem ONLY those that the Father had given Him, no others. See John 17:6 and John 17:9.
The next discussion you need to have is about the supposed "free will" you think man has! I pray that your eyes will be opened to the Truth of the Word, but first you must learn basic grammatical structure, of English and then Hebrew and Greek. Then you would be able to read the Bible yourself and not have it dictated and interpreted for you!
averagefellar said: I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways. Did Christ come to actually save or only make salvation a mere possibility? If the purpose of Christ's death was to actually make an atonement, actually redeem, draw all to Him infallibly, He has failed. Since God is incapable of failure, Christ's death atoned for all the sins it was supposed to.
"He came to SEEK and to save those who were LOST" He did save/make atonement for those who believed [look up "believed"-means an act of belief--an action! not to be confused with a work] so that was success! Anything but failure! What Christ accomplished on the cross should NEVER be thought of as that!!! You don't have the right to define infallible. If He came to die for only those who He KNEW would believe, then you can not say otherwise. It didn't say he died for the saved! That would have been a waste! He died for the lost! -Jonathan Ditmer
djjonnyd said: Is it God's Will for you to be condesending? or prideful? -Jonathan
And what does this <font size="4"><script language="JavaScript" src="includes/ubbt_blink.js"></script><span id="blink"><blink>SCHMOOZE</blink></span><script language="JavaScript">blink();</script></font> have to do with anything that Ruth wrote in her rebuke of this man who is steeped in heresy? Of course, for someone who has set Rick Warren on a pedestal, and embraced his heretical views, it isn't surprising that you would make such an unwarranted comment. We deal with propositional truth and not egalitarianism, pluralism and pragmatism as it is with so many modern churches and with those who profess to be Christians.
djjonnyd said: "He came to SEEK and to save those who were LOST" He did save/make atonement for those who believed [look up "believed"-means an act of belief--an action! not to be confused with a work] so that was success! Anything but failure! What Christ accomplished on the cross should NEVER be thought of as that!!! You don't have the right to define infallible. If He came to die for only those who He KNEW would believe, then you can not say otherwise. It didn't say he died for the saved! That would have been a waste! He died for the lost! -Jonathan Ditmer
Mr. Ditmer,
Did you actually READ the Forum Guidelines before you registered and before you put the check in the box acknowledging that you did read them? Do you have even the slightest idea what the theology of the Protestant Reformation is; i.e., the REFORMED Faith? Perhaps you should acquaint yourself with what the Scriptures teach concerning Christ's INFALLIBLE atonement, i.e., it actually accomplished that which the Father willed it to be, to save those whom the Father gave to the Son and in whom the Holy Spirit would create faith and INFALLIBLY draw them to Christ and preserve them to the end.
"He came to SEEK and to save those who were LOST" He did save/make atonement for those who believed [look up "believed"-means an act of belief--an action! not to be confused with a work] so that was success! Anything but failure! What Christ accomplished on the cross should NEVER be thought of as that!!! You don't have the right to define infallible. If He came to die for only those who He KNEW would believe, then you can not say otherwise. It didn't say he died for the saved! That would have been a waste! He died for the lost!
First, welcome to the forum. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/hello.gif" alt="" /> While I agree with you that Christ was not a failure, respectfully, many of your other thoughts here are riddled with error.
A. You claim that we can’t define “infallible.” However, in the way the term is being used (i.e. being infallibly drawn to Christ) to say such would be tantamount to saying that one’s salvation is not sure, for if it is not sure in the LORD, then there is no surety for it! Thus, your assertion is incorrect. The drawing of God to salvation is as sure as the salvation itself is.
B. Next you claim that “He came to die for only those who He KNEW would believe.” I understand your statement to mean, "God foreordained us because He foreknew our decision," which if I have understood you correctly you are incorrectly dividing and separating God’s fore-knowledge from His fore-ordination. Maybe you did not mean this ... <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />
C. While Christ did die for the LOST, He did not die for ALL the LOST, neither did He come to efficaciously SEEK ALL the LOST. The atonement was limited in design, but not in power. Though His message would be heard by many, it would only be efficaciously heard by God’s elect—those God had given Him before the foundation of the world.
What William is saying is that if Jesus died for every person without exception, then Jesus is a failure because people He supposedly satisfied the wrath of God for are in Hell. Either you have to deny substitutionary atonement, believe everyone is saved, or believe Christ died for the elect (not that the elect never were lost, for the Bible says they once were lost).
Both Calvinists and Arminians believe in a limited atonement. It's just that the Arminians view it as limited in power, while Calvinists view it as limited in extent.
BTW, this thread is going off topic in my opinion, and we have discussed the atonement many places elsewhere on this board, which I'd encourage you to read. Also, here are several links to articles:
True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Did you just fall in here in the middle of this? Sorry if you thought I was being "condescending? or prideful?", but sojourner has constantly castigated averagefella for his supposed lack of continuity or poor interpretation, and I was trying to point out that the shoe was on the other foot!
There is just no way, if you properly exegete the text of the passages noted, to come up with the interpretation proposed by sojourner! Let's get proper exegesis! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" />
Ruth, you have absolutely nothing to be sorry for. You should be commended for standing up for the proper exegesis of Scripture and defending the truth and character of what "averagefella" asserted. When liberals, heretics, and others can't defend their position or see the light biblically they normally cry foul and embrace "a spirit" of their own false judgment and lack of understanding, instead of submitting to the Holy Spirit and repenting.
You are the one saying that Christ failed in His mission, because you insist that man has the ability to choose good from evil, and deny the gift of salvation. If Christ only accomplished the possibility of salvation, then it is hypothetically possible than NO ONE would choose to accept the gift and Christ died for nothing!
God in fact did not fail. He came to redeem His creation, and every sinner that every lived. He accomplished that fact totally. He overcame the fall for every single human being. Adam sinned and plunged the universe into death and corruption (sin). Christ overcame death, thus freed mankind from that bondage to death and sin. How successful does one need to be. Not one was unredeemed. Christ put mankind back into the pre-Adamic state of being able to once again commune with God. Death and sin prevented communion with God. Now man can again commune, however, the choice of whether we will or will not commune with God is left to man,just as it was left to Adam. His one sin was universal in its scope and brought death to ll. Our sin now after Christ can still separate us from God if we chose to deny the spirit. Those that do not believe have already been condemned.
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If Christ only accomplished the possibility of salvation, then it is hypothetically possible than NO ONE would choose to accept the gift and Christ died for nothing
He accomplished it only for the sole purpose that ALL men would again have that choice. The topic of this thread is total depravity which is not the meaning for me, however, what Adam did was to prevent man from every again being in Union with God. That is why man could never save himself. He was dead. He needed to be made alive. This is precisely what Christ did in His redemptive work.
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Christ came to redeem ONLY those that the Father had given Him, no others. See John 17:6 and John 17:9.
John 17:6 and 9 is not addressing believers, only the apostles. This whole chapter is Christ's prayer for himself, vs 1-5, for His disciples vs 6-19, vs 20-23 for His Church, vs24-26 for the world.
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The next discussion you need to have is about the supposed "free will" you think man has! I pray that your eyes will be opened to the Truth of the Word, but first you must learn basic grammatical structure, of English and then Hebrew and Greek. Then you would be able to read the Bible yourself and not have it dictated and interpreted for you!
Unless you can theologically show that Adam did not of his own will chose to sin, you can make a statement that man has no will. You will need to show that God also has no will, because scripturally that is part of our Image of God. As to learning Greek, that is moot. It was given in Greek, explained in Greek, was practiced in Greek, was written in Greek. Why would I need to do better than the Greeks. Also, the Bible expressly forbides private interpretation for the sole purpose that salvation, the Gospel was not given to a single individual ever. It's just that I trust Christ with the Power of the Holy Spirit to do a much better job than mere man. You or myself.
I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways. Did Christ come to actually save or only make salvation a mere possibility? If the purpose of Christs death was to actually make an atonement, actually redeem, draw all to Him infallibly, He has failed. Since God is incapable of failure, Christs death atoned for all the sins it was supposed to.
He saved absolutely everyone. All sinners have been redeemed by Christ's Death. What is possible is Union with God because of His Work on the Cross. He atoned for every sin of the world. That is what is meant by freeing us from the condemnation, judgement of Adam, DEATH, and sin, our own sin's penalty which is spiritual death. He actually saved us from two kinds of death.
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Scripture: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
your response:Context is everything. The only ones enlightened unto salvation were those in verse 13, "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Yes, but THEN DON'T TAKE IT OUT OF CONTEXT. Read vs 12 very carefully.
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Most of the passages I offered were after Christ's death. I couldn't really understand the rest of your post. You also didn't offer any scriptural support or exegesis.
By your personal opinion. You would have Christ coming to this earth even before Adam sinned. Read the context again.
He saved absolutely everyone. All sinners have been redeemed by Christ's Death. What is possible is Union with God because of His Work on the Cross. He atoned for every sin of the world. That is what is meant by freeing us from the condemnation, judgement of Adam, DEATH, and sin, our own sin's penalty which is spiritual death. He actually saved us from two kinds of death.
If all men are saved, why are some still condemned?
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
God in fact did not fail. He came to redeem His creation, and every sinner that every lived. He accomplished that fact totally. He overcame the fall for every single human being.
I have yet to you exegete that assertion from scripture. I don't want to hear how you and some of your closest friends believe alike, I want Gods Word. That isn't redemption by any definition I have seen. What you put forth is that the death of Christ saved none. It only made all men salvable, actual salvation being according to mans whimsical choices. You deny the vicarious nature of the atonement and therefore limit it's power.
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Christ overcame death, thus freed mankind from that bondage to death and sin.
Then why do people still die? Did Adam need salvation prior to the fall? If man is has been returned to his pre-adamic state, every man is already in communion with God.
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How successful does one need to be. Not one was unredeemed. Christ put mankind back into the pre-Adamic state of being able to once again commune with God.
That is not the definition of redeemed.
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Redeem REDEE'M, v.t. [L. redimo; red, re, and emo, to obtain or purchase.] 1. To purchase back; to ransom; to liberate or rescue from captivity or bondage, or from any obligation or liability to suffer or to be forfeited, by paying an equivalent; as, to redeem prisoners or captured goods; to redeem a pledge. 2. To repurchase what has been sold; to regain possession of a thing alienated, by repaying the value of it to the possessor. 3. To rescue; to recover; to deliver from. 4. To compensate; to make amends for. 5. To free by making atonement. 6. To pay the penalty of. 7. To save. 8. To perform what has been promised; to make good by performance. He has redeemed his pledge or promise. 9. In law, to recall an estate, or to obtain the right to re-enter upon a mortgaged estate by paying to the mortgagee his principal, interest, and expenses or costs. 10. In theology, to rescue and deliver from the bondage of sin and the penalties of God's violated law, by obedience and suffering in the place of the sinner, or by doing and suffering that which is accepted in lieu of the sinner's obedience. 11. In commerce, to purchase or pay the value in specie, of any promissory note, bill or other evidence of debt, given by the state, by a company or corporation, or by an individual. The credit of a state, a banking company or individuals, is good when they can redeem all their stock, notes or bills, at par.
In your view, Christ only made a way for you to be "1.purchased back to Himself." The death of Christ didn't actual "2.repurchase" anybody, but only made the way to God possible. I only allows for one to chioose to "3.rescue" themselves. Jesus didn't actually "4.compensate" for sin, but only for the fall. We were not "5.freed" from our sinful natures as man still has a propensity for evil, nor, in your view, did the death of Christ actually "5.free" anybody from eternal punishment. You deny that Christs death was a vicarious sacrifice because it did not "6.pay the penalty" of anything. man is left to himself to deal with his sins. It surely didn't actually "7. save" anybody, only made men salvable. I hope you understand the error here in your definition.
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Those that do not believe have already been condemned.
Then we all die, because at one time, we were all unbelievers. Since Christ didn't actually atone for this sin, all men perish by it's commission.
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Unless you can theologically show that Adam did not of his own will chose to sin, you can make a statement that man has no will. You will need to show that God also has no will, because scripturally that is part of our Image of God.
Once again, you misrepresent reformed beliefs. I truly hope you take to learning what you teach against. Nobody here denies that we make choices. We deny that we make them from a free-will. We also believe those wills are forever linked to our nature, which affects how we make decisions.
Could you offer a passage that says man has free-will, please?
He atoned for every sin of the world. That is what is meant by freeing us from the condemnation, judgement of Adam, DEATH, and sin, our own sin's penalty which is spiritual death. He actually saved us from two kinds of death.
Yup, universalism. ALL sins are paid for, ALL men are saved from both the fall AND hell. Why are some still condemned?
I have yet to you exegete that assertion from scripture. I don't want to hear how you and some of your closest friends believe alike, I want Gods Word. That isn't redemption by any definition I have seen. What you put forth is that the death of Christ saved none. It only made all men salvable, actual salvation being according to mans whimsical choices. You deny the vicarious nature of the atonement and therefore limit it's power.
It is not redeemption by your definition. As yet you have not shown that the Apostles taught redemption with your meaning. I believe I stated before that He saved every single human being. He did the exact opposite of what Adam did in the fall. I listed the texts before however here they are. They stand on their own, It is really plain English, you don't even need the Greek. By the way, ALL in Greek does not mean "some". II Cor 5:14-19; Col 1:15-20, John 5:28-29, Rom 5:14-19, I Cor 15:20-22. John 12:32, Acts 24:15, Acts 23:6.
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actual salvation being according to mans whimsical choices. You deny the vicarious nature of the atonement and therefore limit it's power.
Yes, man's individual salvation is dependent on his own choice. It is what will save you or condemn you in eternity. My definition of atonement does not limit it extent nor power thereof. He redeemed all of mankind. His atonement paid the penalty of every man's sin, namely spiritual death. That is the only death that remains. Christ overcame the physcial death for all of mankind as well. We still die, but it is a passing from mortality to immortality. Life to all. See the texts above.
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Then why do people still die? Did Adam need salvation prior to the fall? If man is has been returned to his pre-adamic state, every man is already in communion with God.
Yes, Adam was in the process of salvation. He was neither created mortal nor immortal. If he had stayed working with God to the end he would have attained immortality. He was created to do a job. Man still has that purpose. God did not change the reason He created us. If He did, I need scripture to show that God's purpose was changed. Also that man's essence was changed, which you are also alluding.
People die because God did not change the condition of this world at this time. Man still dies, has a physical death but it is simply a passage to eternity. Death actually terminates man's sinful nature. He does not take corruptibleness into heaven with him. Christ overcame and paid the penalty of our sins which is spiritual death. Unless we believe, we will die. Ah, sounds so much like the commandment He gave to Adam. Must be a correlation.
The pre-Adamic state is to have the choice. Before Christ we were eternally condemned to die physically, and spiritually. We have been restored to the ability to fulfill the commandment of our created purpose.
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That is not the definition of redeemed.
It may not be yours, but it is both scriptural and answers your printed definition. It fulfills all but the 9th and 11th which do not apply.
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In your view, Christ only made a way for you to be "1.purchased back to Himself." The death of Christ didn't actual "2.repurchase" anybody, but only made the way to God possible. I only allows for one to chioose to "3.rescue" themselves. Jesus didn't actually "4.compensate" for sin, but only for the fall. We were not "5.freed" from our sinful natures as man still has a propensity for evil, nor, in your view, did the death of Christ actually "5.free" anybody from eternal punishment. You deny that Christ's death was a vicarious sacrifice because it did not "6.pay the penalty" of anything. man is left to himself to deal with his sins. It surely didn't actually "7. save" anybody, only made men salvable. I hope you understand the error here in your definition.
You are the one that is trying to limit the work of Christ. He paid the price for every single human being. Scriptually known as the LOST. It did make Union with God possible but that was the purpose of Christ's work. To have man back into Union with Him in order to fulfill his created purpose. If Christ is going to do for God what man was specifcially created to perform, why create man in the first place. God created man for companionship. God is communal. That is why he created man to be so. But He also created man with a will to love Him freely. Not under complusion, then why create. I can make anything love me if I am able to control the loving, right? The best example is marriage. I like to see you control the love of your spouse. Only your partner can control their own love, not that of the other. If you could control it, it would not be love.
We were not freed from our sinful natures. I like to see you prove both from scripture and reality that this is even romotely a possibility. The is the war that Paul speaks about between man's flesh and his spirit. It is up to us and using the Grace God gives to us to remain IN Christ and to prevail in keeping the spirit over the flesh.
He saved man from eternal punishment but that is a choice all men make.
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Then we all die, because at one time, we were all unbelievers. Since Christ didn't actually atone for this sin, all men perish by it's commission.
I have no understanding of what you are trying to say here. It makes absolutely no sense. Read, John 3:18. If every man believed, none would die. Whether man, today, after Christ, dies spiritually is up to him.
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Once again, you misrepresent reformed beliefs. I truly hope you take to learning what you teach against. Nobody here denies that we make choices. We deny that we make them from a free-will. We also believe those wills are forever linked to our nature, which affects how we make decisions.
Could you offer a passage that says man has free-will, please?
Man's will is always free. It is independent of Gods will. It is never bound in any way by God. You just want God to take the responsibility for what man does, Christ redeemed our natures from the bondage of death which held us captive. The way we use that will, our person, each person uses their will differently. The essence of man, his nature is the same for all of us. We are identical. However, how we use it, or the agency of that will has been freed because our nature, by the Incarnation. So I can assume that you do not really believe in the Incarnation. That Christ redeemed mankind. He cannot redeem only a portion or some. Again, if He in fact did this, then part of the universe was redeemed as well, but which part. Can you explain from scripture. Do the converse for me. Show from scripture that man does not have a free will?
If all men are saved, why are some still condemned?
Because you do not use the word "saved" correctly in the proper context it is being used.
First, salvation is correcting the fall. That is as simple as it can get. If your explanations of salvation do not align with the fall, you have something incorrect.
Adam sinned plunged mankind, not at few men, into Death and Sin. All men die. all men sin because they are dead. If Christ is going to correct the fall, assuming that you agree with this premise, then He must of necessity save those that fell due to Adam. Since all men fell, then all men are saved. However, the word saved must be qualified. First, because we are speaking of Christ's redemption of man. Secondly, it should always be qualified or understood to be saying "saved from death and sin". These are some of the text that show this correlation; II Cor 5:14-19; Col 1:15-20, John 5:28-29, Rom 5:14-19, I Cor 15:20-22. John 12:32, Acts 24:15, Acts 23:6.
If you show that Christ's Work was partial, then you need to show also just what part of the universe was saved. He saved the created universe. The universe by Genesis also suffered the pangs of death and corruption. Or is man the only thing that dies?
The fact that all men will be raised also speaks to the fact that Christ died for ALL men, mankind.
However, back to Adam. Adam did not have a problem walking with God. God created man for a very specific purpose. Adam was doing this walking, was in a personal, intimate relationship with God. He was created to be prophet, king and priest of God's creation. God redeemed for mankind these three offices. We also know that man was to be conformed to God's Image. That is the work that Adam was in the process of performing when he sinned. By sinning, death came and death wrought more sin, and man's union with God was terminated.
There was nothing wrong with the walk, it just could not take place. Christ overcame death and sin IN ORDER THAT MAN COULD AGAIN BE IN UNION WITH HIM. Man can again do so, but God has left, as He did with Adam, the free choice to choose whether to serve God or Satan.
This latter portion is called the salvation of man as opposed to the salvation or redemption of mankind. Once you have that understood, the rest of Scripture should fall into place. The Incarnation was specifically to redeem His creation of which man is only a part.
The first part, redemption is objective. It is imposed on mankind. Mankind has nothing to do with it, cannot change it, did not contribute anything to it. God our of love for His creation redeemed it for Himself. However, the part dealing with walking with God is all man's decision. That does not mean Grace is not involved, nor that God is not active. In fact, it is all God here as well, because He calls all men to repentance. The Holy Spirit was poured out upon all flesh for the specific purpose of God calling them to repentance.
However, some men will refuse to believe. Others will believe for a time and depart.
By putting the salvation of man into the salvation or redemption of mankind you have Christ accomplishing the purpose of which man was specifically created to perform. You have Adam's walk with God as the problem in the fall rather than the sin.
You not only limit God's redemptive plan, but you then want Christ to do the work for which man was created to perform. Another way of saying it, Christ is now walking with God. He replaced man and his role in creation.
My comments: He atoned for every sin of the world. That is what is meant by freeing us from the condemnation, judgement of Adam, DEATH, and sin, our own sin's penalty which is spiritual death. He actually saved us from two kinds of death.
Your comments: Yup, universalism. ALL sins are paid for, ALL men are saved from both the fall AND hell. Why are some still condemned?
I think you better revisit the definition of universalism. There is absolutely nothing I stated that supports the correct understanding of Universalism. Either what it means today, which is far different than Origen's first espousal of the theory which was condemned by the Church in the 5th century with the 5th Ecumenical Council.
I noticed that a few times you have misrepresented Calvinism. I don't know you well enough to know if this is intentional or not. But thought I would give you the benefit of the doubt. Here is an article that you can learn more about Calvinism. www.the-highway.com/Death.html At least that way you will not have an excuse for misrepresenting us.
If you show that Christ's Work was partial, then you need to show also just what part of the universe was saved. He saved the created universe. The universe by Genesis also suffered the pangs of death and corruption. Or is man the only thing that dies?
You claim the universe in all its constituent parts has been saved, but yet you believe that a portion of mankind (which is also a part of the universe), will be consigned to eternal death! The salvation of mankind from death and sin, in your scheme, does not guarantee for any man salvation from the death that is the consequence of sin. How can this be? If we have already been ransomed and the devil is defeated, how is it that we may be taken captive by the devil again?
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Is it your view then that SALVATION is the restoration of man to a pre-fall state and that REDEMPTION is akin to eating the tree of life? Only they that eat of the tree of life (i.e. those that choose to serve God) will be preserved forever. Are these definitions correct according to your theological system?
It is not redeemption by your definition. As yet you have not shown that the Apostles taught redemption with your meaning. I believe I stated before that He saved every single human being.
I have repeatedly listed scriptures, exegesis, greek meaning, word definitions, etc., and you still claim my definition is wrong. Oh well. God, nor Jesus, saved every individual from hell.
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Salvation SALVA'TION, n. [L. salvo, to save.] 1. The act of saving; preservation from destruction, danger or great calamity. 2. Appropriately in theology, the redemption of man from the bondage of sin and liability to eternal death, and the conferring on him everlasting happiness. This is the great salvation. 3. Deliverance from enemies; victory. Exo 14. 4. Remission of sins, or saving graces. Luke 19.
That says nothing of a return to a pre-fall state. I am wondering where you get your definitions, and since you only want to offer a few proof texts, I think we will never know.
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By the way, ALL in Greek does not mean "some". II Cor 5:14-19; Col 1:15-20, John 5:28-29, Rom 5:14-19, I Cor 15:20-22. John 12:32, Acts 24:15, Acts 23:6.
Here is a list where ALL, or its Greek original, PAS, is indeed rendered as something besides ALL universally.
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Mat 5:11 Blessed3107 are2075 ye, when3752 men shall revile3679 you,5209 and2532 persecute1377 you, and2532 shall say2036 all manner of evil3956, 4190, 4487 against2596 you5216 falsely,5574 for my sake.1752, 1700
Mat 10:1 And2532 when he had called unto4341 him his848 twelve1427 disciples,3101 he gave1325 them846 power1849 against unclean169 spirits,4151 to5620 cast them out,1544, 846 and2532 to heal2323 all manner3956 of sickness3554 and2532 all manner3956 of disease.3119
Luk 11:42 But235 woe3759 unto you,5213 Pharisees!5330 for3754 ye tithe586 mint2238 and2532 rue4076 and2532 all manner3956 of herbs,3001 and2532 pass over3928 judgment2920 and2532 the3588 love26 of God:2316 these5023 ought1163 ye to have done,4160 and not to leave the other undone.2548, 3361, 863
Act 10:12 Wherein1722, 3739 were5225 all manner3956 of fourfooted beasts5074 of the3588 earth,1093 and2532 wild beasts,2342 and2532 creeping things,2062 and2532 fowls4071 of the3588 air.3772
Rom 7:8 But1161 sin,266 taking2983 occasion874 by1223 the3588 commandment,1785 wrought2716 in1722 me1698 all manner3956 of concupiscence.1939 For1063 without5565 the law3551 sin266 was dead.3498
1Pe 1:15 But235 as2596 he which hath called2564 you5209 is holy,40 so2532 be1096 ye846 holy40 in1722 all manner3956 of conversation;391
(KJV)
You interpretational abilities seem lacking, significantly. I just provided three gospels and three other places where PAS is translated something other than ALL. Looks like my point is actually made from scripture, again.
The rest of your post was simply rehashed junk. It's all been refuted. It is also, once again, minus any scriptural support.
Never stated that He did, In fact, I have been stating the opposite. You have a serious misunderstanding of what Christ actually accomplished for mankind.
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That says nothing of a return to a pre-fall state. I am wondering where you get your definitions, and since you only want to offer a few proof texts, I think we will never know.
Your definitions precisely define the redemptive plan of Christ. The texts, I believe there were about 10 of them that show that Christ overcame the judgement of the fall. If the Fall was corrected then Christ brought mankind back to the prefall condition whereby Adam was in communion with God. Man can now fulfill his created purpose.
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You interpretational abilities seem lacking, significantly. I just provided three gospels and three other places where PAS is translated something other than ALL. Looks like my point is actually made from scripture, again.
Again, they all mean all. There is no qualification that it is less than all. Does not imply some manner, but all manner. All manner of fourfouted beasts is that all fourfooted beasts but there are several different kinds (manner) of fourfooted beasts. You need it just to support your false supposition which is not based on Scripture but a superinposed concept and then you go about with your excellent scholarship to proove that some texts might and could be interpreted the way you wish or need. They have not been so interpreted since the beginning.
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The rest of your post was simply rehashed junk. It's all been refuted. It is also, once again, minus any scriptural support.
All you have refuted that it does not align with your personal opinion of your supposition. It aligns with what the Church has taught and believed from the beginning.
You claim the universe in all its constituent parts has been saved, but yet you believe that a portion of mankind (which is also a part of the universe), will be consigned to eternal death! How can this be?
First, it is not my claim. First and foremost it is what has been delievered once to the saints for all time. Man is never consigned to hell other than by his choice. God merely passes judgement of what man did with the Gifts of Christ. We do not hold the view that God predestined man either to heaven nor to hell. Neither does the Bible.
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The salvation of mankind from death and sin, in your scheme, does not guarantee for any man salvation from the death that is the consequence of sin.
It guarantees every man eternal immortality. But it does not guarantee consequence of the penalty of sin if man choses to ignore God and His call to repent. Christ freed all men to be able to chose, the same as Adam, instead of being held eternally in the judgement of Adam and his one sin. Physical death has been conquered for all men. Our physical death is but a passing into immortality at the last day. Spiritual death is still a reality for all men in their lifetimes.
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If we have already been ransomed and the devil is defeated, how is it that we may be taken captive by the devil again?
Christ conquered Death. Satan no longer has dominion over death. However, spiritual death is still a reality because Satan still exists in this world. We need not be held by him if we so chose. But that is the whole purpose of living the Christian life. To live IN Christ and to overcome the devil and his temptations and wiles.
Is it your view then that SALVATION is the restoration of man to a pre-fall state and that REDEMPTION is akin to eating the tree of life? Only they that eat of the tree of life (i.e. those that choose to serve God) will be preserved forever. Are these definitions correct according to your theological system?
The word you use here, SALVATION, is redemption. Leave the Tree of Life out. It was in the Garden and man was removed, just so Adam could not partake, thus making man's sinful condition, death, eternal. That is what Christ overcame. Christ could and did overcome death. But He made LIFE ETERNAL for all of mankind.
It is not just a matter of choosing, We must live IN Christ our whole lives from the time of our entry into the Kingdom whether as infants or adults.
Man is never consigned to hell other than by his choice. God merely passes judgement of what man did with the Gifts of Christ.
If it is true that God's purpose is that every man come to eternal life, then God most certainly fails in His purpose when He allows a great portion of mankind to fall into hell. I do not believe God can fail in His purposes, and so I do not believe that God's purpose is that every man come to eternal life.
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We do not hold the view that God predestined man either to heaven nor to hell. Neither does the Bible.
In the Acts, it is written, "When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed" (13:48). This indicates that God predestined ("appointed") some to eternal life.
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It guarantees every man eternal immortality. But it does not guarantee consequence of the penalty of sin if man choses to ignore God and His call to repent.
What on earth does this mean? Do you think the souls of those men who perished in Noah's day were obliterated? The man always has remained after physical death, either in life eternal or in death eternal.
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Christ freed all men to be able to chose, the same as Adam, instead of being held eternally in the judgement of Adam and his one sin. Physical death has been conquered for all men. Our physical death is but a passing into immortality at the last day. Spiritual death is still a reality for all men in their lifetimes.
Christ did not accomplish this situation. What He accomplished on the cross was to guarantee life eternal for all His sheep.
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Not one shred of anything substantial. No exegesis, no refutation, no scholarship, and even a willing blind eye to all that yiou have been offered. Standing on a soapbox doesn't elevate you to correct by default.
Is it your view then that SALVATION is the restoration of man to a pre-fall state and that REDEMPTION is akin to eating the tree of life? Only they that eat of the tree of life (i.e. those that choose to serve God) will be preserved forever. Are these definitions correct according to your theological system?
The word you use here, SALVATION, is redemption. Leave the Tree of Life out. It was in the Garden and man was removed, just so Adam could not partake, thus making man's sinful condition, death, eternal. That is what Christ overcame. Christ could and did overcome death. But He made LIFE ETERNAL for all of mankind.
It is not just a matter of choosing, We must live IN Christ our whole lives from the time of our entry into the Kingdom whether as infants or adults.
Well then clearly you are unsaved and can never be saved if your present theological thoughts continue to rule your belief system. Moreover, you are espousing heresy. First, you state man "through redemption" was merely put back into the pre-fall state of Adam. However, this is completely false as before the fall Adam was not even familiar with "actual sin," as fallen man is today (prior to salvation). In addition, Adam exercised his freedom in an unfallen world not a fallen world. Thus, your definition of redemption is faulty. Second, you are espousing a "works righteousness" in order to inherit eternal life which is a direct contradiction of Eph 2:8-10 and a host of other Scriptures. Third, you fail to see the forensic aspect of justification and substitute for it "sanctification alone" as the way to God. Fourth, if Christ made salvation a mere "possibility" then He actually accomplished nothing specifically at all for any, which is a direct contradiction of Heb 9:28 and many other texts.
If it is true that God's purpose is that every man come to eternal life, then God most certainly fails in His purpose when He allows a great portion of mankind to fall into hell. I do not believe God can fail in His purposes, and so I do not believe that God's purpose is that every man come to eternal life.
Depending on how you understand eternal life, every man will have eternal life. See Acts 24:15. It was part of Christ's work to bring Life to all men. This is eternal life. Immortality. In that He certainly did not fail. That fact that some men will not choose Christ and make a diliberate negative answer to God's call is not the problem of God but of man. God desires that all men be saved, however in His purpose of creating man gave him a will so that man could voluntarily, without compulsion, without force, without manipulation choose to freely love and obey. If not, there is absolutely no purpose for man in this creation, except to be a toy of God. That is why limiting God's power is making God a failure. He didn't do what He purposed to do.
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In the Acts, it is written, "When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed" (13:48). This indicates that God predestined ("appointed") some to eternal life.
Again context: Jesus came to save those of the House of Isreal. He also knew that they had rejected Him. The prophets of the OT had foretold that the Gospel, the Messianic Age would also be to the Gentiles. If you go back up to verse 46 that is explained to you. Paul then goes directly lto the Gentiles. They had been appointed to receive the Gospel in this age. That is the meaning and use of the word appointed. Simply, not just the Jews but Gentiles which in effect meant every human being since. Acts 2:47 also reinforces this concept.
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What on earth does this mean? Do you think the souls of those men who perished in Noah's day were obliterated? The man always has remained after physical death, either in life eternal or in death eternal.
Absolutely, that is the whole basis of the Christian Gospel.
A little theology to help with this understanding. Man is a unique creature. He is both divine and material. This is what is also meant by the creation into His Image. Mans soul was created to be eternal. It would never die. 'Since the soul was joined with the body, a physical or earthly element God created the whole man to be immortal. Man cannot live apart from having both. The soul gives the body life and the body gives substance to the soul. In other words we are not spirits. Adam was created good, not perfect. He was neither mortal nor immortal. How do we know this. Because when he sinned he became mortal. If he had not sinned he would have become immortal. He could not have been immortal because immortal cannot become mortal.
This the the sole reason of the Incarnation. God needed to redeem the physical creation in order to put mankind back to gether, that is body and soul for eternity. Under Adams judgement of death, man would have died the physcial death whereby the body decays, and the soul lives in eternity, but also a spiritual death because man could have never been reunited with God without Christ, thus the soul(s) of all men would be eternally in hell. That would essentially annhilate God's sovereign purpose for man and His creation.
So, Christ came to give life to all men, correct the judgement, Give immortality to all men. The just and the unjust. It is man who will dicide on which side of the wall he will spend eternity. Man must chose this day whom he will serve.
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Christ did not accomplish this situation. What He accomplished on the cross was to guarantee life eternal for all His sheep.
He did not guarantee any such thing, even for His sheep. He promised eternal life IN Christ to those who believe, John 3:16. It is whosoever, not those specially designated.. All who believe are His sheep. The texts I posted on this thread twice already all speak to this very fact.
Actually, I can show that is actually true in the sense that all humans are His Sheep, He created them, preserves all life,. and give immortality to all life including the universe. He loves all sinners, His love never faileth.
Theologically, and Scripturally, the only way you could hold to such a view, is that man in his essence is not the same. So that in the Incarnation of Christ, those men who of only that certain nature or essence would be saved, thus excluding all other men who are somehow of a different essence. If this is true, which is what you would have to hold with your view, then please show me these human beings that are different in their humaness from some others. And that would hold true for the universe as well. Some part of the universe can be associated with certain of mankind but not all. Whatever the essence of those Incarnated by Christ would also be the essence that corresponds with the Universe. All other humans who are associated with that portion of the created world that is different would not be redeemed. Then you could scripturally hold to the view that all means some, because the some refers to a specific kind of human. So lets hear your proof. Scripturally.
The only thing that is guaranteed is the Work of Christ on the Cross. That work is theologically called redemption. The salvation of individual man, the purpose of man in this created order, is a synergistic cooperation between God and man. Adam's walk, our walk. Living the life of Christ IN Christ. Becoming Like Christ, attaining the conformation to His Image.
Depending on how you understand eternal life, every man will have eternal life. See Acts 24:15. It was part of Christ's work to bring Life to all men. This is eternal life. Immortality. In that He certainly did not fail.
If I understand eternal life not to be eternal life, then perhaps everyone will have eternal life. But then, it won't really be eternal life, now will it? What perversity to call eternal death a type of eternal life!
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That fact that some men will not choose Christ and make a diliberate negative answer to God's call is not the problem of God but of man. God desires that all men be saved, however in His purpose of creating man gave him a will so that man could voluntarily, without compulsion, without force, without manipulation choose to freely love and obey. If not, there is absolutely no purpose for man in this creation, except to be a toy of God.
"Who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the moder, 'Why did you make me like this,' will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called not from among the Jews only, but also from among Gentiles" (Rom. 9:20–24).
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That is why limiting God's power is making God a failure. He didn't do what He purposed to do.
A god who is not capable of accomplishing his will is no god at all.
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Again context: Jesus came to save those of the House of Isreal. He also knew that they had rejected Him. The prophets of the OT had foretold that the Gospel, the Messianic Age would also be to the Gentiles. If you go back up to verse 46 that is explained to you. Paul then goes directly lto the Gentiles. They had been appointed to receive the Gospel in this age. That is the meaning and use of the word appointed. Simply, not just the Jews but Gentiles which in effect meant every human being since. Acts 2:47 also reinforces this concept.
Your interpretation is nonsense. The verse says, "As many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." If the "appointment to eternal life" is simply being made morally neutral such that one may choose either good or evil without a predisposed bias, then following from this verse all WOULD believe. But we know that not all believe, and indeed the verse implies that not even all present there believed, but rather only those who had been appointed to eternal life believed.
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This the the sole reason of the Incarnation. God needed to redeem the physical creation in order to put mankind back to gether, that is body and soul for eternity. Under Adams judgement of death, man would have died the physcial death whereby the body decays, and the soul lives in eternity, but also a spiritual death because man could have never been reunited with God without Christ, thus the soul(s) of all men would be eternally in hell. That would essentially annhilate God's sovereign purpose for man and His creation.
So, Christ came to give life to all men, correct the judgement, Give immortality to all men. The just and the unjust. It is man who will dicide on which side of the wall he will spend eternity. Man must chose this day whom he will serve.
How does it solve the problem when the greater portion of mankind will burn eternally in the pit of hell, will die eternally? That is as much an annihilation of God's purpose in your scheme as anything, for both body and soul are continually destroyed in hell. There is no eternal life there.
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He did not guarantee any such thing, even for His sheep. He promised eternal life IN Christ to those who believe, John 3:16. It is whosoever, not those specially designated.. All who believe are His sheep. The texts I posted on this thread twice already all speak to this very fact.
Indeed, all who believe are His sheep. However, only those whom God has appointed (predestined) to eternal life will believe! "Whosoever" does not imply that every individual may choose to believe, only that belief is not restricted to a particular class of human beings, i.e., the Jews. ANY who believe, Jew or Gentile, male of female, free or slave, will not perish, but have eternal life.
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Actually, I can show that is actually true in the sense that all humans are His Sheep, He created them, preserves all life,. and give immortality to all life including the universe. He loves all sinners, His love never faileth.
Indeed, He loves the greater portion of man to such an extent that He allows them to perish eternally. What love is this!
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Theologically, and Scripturally, the only way you could hold to such a view, is that man in his essence is not the same. So that in the Incarnation of Christ, those men who of only that certain nature or essence would be saved, thus excluding all other men who are somehow of a different essence.
Absolutely and utterly wrong. All men alike are sinners; no man differs in his humanness or in his fallenness from other men (except for the Man, Jesus). For Paul writes, "You were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrat, even as the rest" (Eph. 2:1–3). The difference between the sheep and the goats arises not from within the sheep, but from outside the sheep; indeed, the difference that arises between the sheep and the goats is the result of God's love for the sheep, just as it is written: "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:4–7).
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So lets hear your proof. Scripturally.
The proof of the predestination of the elect: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us IN HIM before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to the kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were SEALED IN HIM with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:3–14).
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The only thing that is guaranteed is the Work of Christ on the Cross. That work is theologically called redemption. The salvation of individual man, the purpose of man in this created order, is a synergistic cooperation between God and man. Adam's walk, our walk. Living the life of Christ IN Christ. Becoming Like Christ, attaining the conformation to His Image.
"Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:3).
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
sojourner said, "It is whosoever, not those specially designated." I am pretty sure that the word "whosoever" was not in the original text. It might better read "that he gave his only Son, that the believing ones should not perish but have eternal life."
I remember reading that somewhere but it could be false...anyone know for sure?
1. individually a. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything 2. collectively b. some of all types
... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ...
Last edited by CovenantInBlood; Fri Jan 07, 200512:34 AM.
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Thanks CovenantInBlood. I know that the greek word is in the lexicon but i read in an article that it was added written by, should i be so brave to mention him, matthew mcmahon. He said "...In all reality, the word “whosoever” in the Greek text does not even appear. It is nowhere to be found... It is more of an interpretive help in understanding the verse by the translators. Scholars have added the word in an attempt to help you understand the verse and Christ’s meaning there."
Where he got that from i have no idea. I had to do some serious searching for that article but it was bugging me.
Thanks CovenantInBlood. I know that the greek word is in the lexicon but i read in an article that it was added written by, should i be so brave to mention him, matthew mcmahon. He said "...In all reality, the word “whosoever” in the Greek text does not even appear. It is nowhere to be found... It is more of an interpretive help in understanding the verse by the translators. Scholars have added the word in an attempt to help you understand the verse and Christ’s meaning there."
Where he got that from i have no idea. I had to do some serious searching for that article but it was bugging me.
Maybe he means the Greek word for "whoever" isn't in the text? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Well then clearly you are unsaved and can never be saved if your present theological thoughts continue to rule your belief system. Moreover, you are espousing heresy.
That is because you do not accept the Gospel once given. It is heresy as per your view which you have not shown to be scriptural as yet.
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First, you state man "through redemption" was merely put back into the pre-fall state of Adam. However, this is completely false as before the fall Adam was not even familiar with "actual sin," as fallen man is today (prior to salvation).
That is also because you are not following the purpose of redemption. We are not speaking of the state of Adam's nature vs ours, but that the freedom of the will which he had, is the same for all of mankind now that our natures have been redeemed. Christ freed mankind from that bondage. Very simple theology.
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In addition, Adam exercised his freedom in an unfallen world not a fallen world. Thus, your definition of redemption is faulty.
Again, you are confusing the respective states with the ability to choose, to exercise our God-given will, created in His Image, the redemption from the bondage of death in which Adam placed all men. Christ knew precisely that man would have a very difficult time in overcoming his own fallen nature, the sinful world and the fact the devil will work mightily in tempting Christians. Thus He provided us with some marvelous gifts which protect, strengthens us, and helps man walk with Him in Union, which Adam did not enjoy because He, in fact did not have, a sinful nature, yet he chose to leave this communion with God. What are some of those gifts... The Church, His Body in which the Holy Spirit dwells, and Christ dwells within each believer. He strengthens us through the sacraments.
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Second, you are espousing a "works righteousness" in order to inherit eternal life which is a direct contradiction of Eph 2:8-10 and a host of other Scriptures.
Again,. faulty understanding and trying to put both redemption and the salvation of individual man into the same definition. We completely adhere to Eph 2: 8-10 and a lot of other texts which says the same thing. It is simply speaking of the redemptive work of Christ. Man did not do anything, cannot do anything, is incapable of doing anything to redeem himself. We are justified by faith. When we believe that Christ did in fact save us from death and sin, by faith in Him justifies us to God. Faith does not save us. It is not about inheriting eternal life. We all will inherit eternal life. However, there is a difference in that I desire to have eternal life with Christ.
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Third, you fail to see the forensic aspect of justification and substitute for it "sanctification alone" as the way to God.
There is no forensic aspect to justification. It happens to be a misuse of a latin word to describe a relationship that is not legal. It means to be put into a right relationship. That is what faith does for individual man. It justifies man to God. Sanctification however, is not ever alone. You cannot have either justification, nor sanctification apart from each other. They compliment each other. Sanctification is our walk with God, It is the living of our created purpose through Christ to conforming to His Image, to properly exercise the three fold offices of mankind which Christ redeemed for man.
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Fourth, if Christ made salvation a mere "possibility" then He actually accomplished nothing specifically at all for any, which is a direct contradiction of Heb 9:28 and many other texts.
The salvation of man that you are now referencing, that is the individual salvation of man, is no different than that of Adam. He made it possible for Adam to either become mortal or immortal. He did this with a command to obey Him and thus stay in Communion with Him, or reject Him by eating of the Tree of Good and Evil. Adam ate. Christ now comes to each man with a command. He specifically freed mankind to be able to make this decision, and then if one choses Christ, Christ works with man in fulfilling man's created purpose, which Adam was doing before he fell. I mentioned earlier, one needs to align salvation with the fall. The communion Adam had was not the problem, had nothing to do with the fall. Adam sinned, thus could not walk with God any longer. Why do you think that Christ is going to fulfil man's purpose in this world. There is nothing is scripture that says Christ will do what man was created to do. Why would God have created man in the first place and even to redeem Him if Christ was going to do the work of man. You confuse the fall/redemption with the salvation of individual man/communion with God aspect of the whole Biblical story. If you chose not to walk with God (Christ) then you suffer the consequences of hell, spiritual death for eternity, immortally. Specifically, Hebrew 9:28 tells you point blank that salvation will be accomplished finally in the last day. It is moving back tro the sacrifical act of the Day of Atonement vs 11-14. The blood sprinkled here brings the life of the covenantal people into God's presence. It reconciles God and man. The final reconciliation, the eternal one, is the presentation of Christ's sacrificial blood vs 24 to God in Heaven. That is why our physical death ends sin and with His second coming it ends sin completely. The last enemy is death.
I would just like to know why it's so hard for people to understand that Paul's ministry was to the Gentiles? This is very very obvious. When we make the transition from the old dispensation to the new, we're including "everyone." Or as Paul likes to put it "all" people and not just the Jews. Come on give me a break, we are not referring to unlimited atonement! We are referring to limited atonement to those that God the Father has chosen for His Son in Jesus Christ for "all" people and not just his previously chosen children,the nation of Israel. Again, I just don't understand why this is so hard to understand, it's pretty clear to me. Go back and re-read Romans. For that matter, re-read the whole bible.
Y.B.I.C,
Dave.
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Galatians 2:16
Puritan said: I would just like to know why it's so hard for people to understand that Paul's ministry was to the Gentiles? This is very very obvious. When we make the transition from the old dispensation to the new, we're including "everyone." Or as Paul likes to put it "all" people and not just the Jews. Come on give me a break, we are not referring to unlimited atonement! We are referring to limited atonement to those that God the Father has chosen for His Son in Jesus Christ for "all" people and not just his previously chosen children,the nation of Israel. Again, I just don't understand why this is so hard to understand, it's pretty clear to me. Go back and re-read Romans. For that matter, re-read the whole bible.
Men really just don't like the idea that God doesn't love every single individual on earth, in fact, that He hates some enough to give them over to their sins and ultimately to hell. They look first and foremost not at God's glory, but at man's worth. They do not see that because of sin, man is worthless before God. In fact, they find abhorrent the idea that God loves Himself first and foremost, and not man, because they love man first and foremost, and not God. However, God, because of His loving nature, did not allow all men to perish, but chose to save a remnant from destruction, a remnant which He would make faithful and holy to Him—and this they proceed to call rape, because man's will is not operative in his own rebirth. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Banghead.gif" alt="" />
Truly man is a vain creature.
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
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