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Re: Total Depravity with scriptural support [Re: Pilgrim] #20604
Wed Jan 05, 2005 9:58 PM
Wed Jan 05, 2005 9:58 PM

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averagefellar,


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I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways. Did Christ come to actually save or only make salvation a mere possibility? If the purpose of Christs death was to actually make an atonement, actually redeem, draw all to Him infallibly, He has failed. Since God is incapable of failure, Christs death atoned for all the sins it was supposed to.
He saved absolutely everyone. All sinners have been redeemed by Christ's Death. What is possible is Union with God because of His Work on the Cross. He atoned for every sin of the world. That is what is meant by freeing us from the condemnation, judgement of Adam, DEATH, and sin, our own sin's penalty which is spiritual death. He actually saved us from two kinds of death.

Quote
Scripture: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

your response:Context is everything. The only ones enlightened unto salvation were those in verse 13, "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Yes, but THEN DON'T TAKE IT OUT OF CONTEXT. Read vs 12 very carefully.

Quote
Most of the passages I offered were after Christ's death. I couldn't really understand the rest of your post. You also didn't offer any scriptural support or exegesis.
By your personal opinion. You would have Christ coming to this earth even before Adam sinned. Read the context again.

Re: Total Depravity with scriptural support #20605
Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:01 PM
Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:01 PM
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He saved absolutely everyone. All sinners have been redeemed by Christ's Death. What is possible is Union with God because of His Work on the Cross. He atoned for every sin of the world. That is what is meant by freeing us from the condemnation, judgement of Adam, DEATH, and sin, our own sin's penalty which is spiritual death. He actually saved us from two kinds of death.


If all men are saved, why are some still condemned?


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Re: Total Depravity with scriptural support #20606
Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:25 PM
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God in fact did not fail. He came to redeem His creation, and every sinner that every lived. He accomplished that fact totally. He overcame the fall for every single human being.


I have yet to you exegete that assertion from scripture. I don't want to hear how you and some of your closest friends believe alike, I want Gods Word. That isn't redemption by any definition I have seen. What you put forth is that the death of Christ saved none. It only made all men salvable, actual salvation being according to mans whimsical choices. You deny the vicarious nature of the atonement and therefore limit it's power.

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Christ overcame death, thus freed mankind from that bondage to death and sin.


Then why do people still die? Did Adam need salvation prior to the fall? If man is has been returned to his pre-adamic state, every man is already in communion with God.

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How successful does one need to be. Not one was unredeemed. Christ put mankind back into the pre-Adamic state of being able to once again commune with God.


That is not the definition of redeemed.

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Redeem
REDEE'M, v.t. [L. redimo; red, re, and emo, to obtain or purchase.]
1. To purchase back; to ransom; to liberate or rescue from captivity or bondage, or from any obligation or liability to suffer or to be forfeited, by paying an equivalent; as, to redeem prisoners or captured goods; to redeem a pledge.
2. To repurchase what has been sold; to regain possession of a thing alienated, by repaying the value of it to the possessor.
3. To rescue; to recover; to deliver from.
4. To compensate; to make amends for.
5. To free by making atonement.
6. To pay the penalty of.
7. To save.
8. To perform what has been promised; to make good by performance. He has redeemed his pledge or promise.
9. In law, to recall an estate, or to obtain the right to re-enter upon a mortgaged estate by paying to the mortgagee his principal, interest, and expenses or costs.
10. In theology, to rescue and deliver from the bondage of sin and the penalties of God's violated law, by obedience and suffering in the place of the sinner, or by doing and suffering that which is accepted in lieu of the sinner's obedience.
11. In commerce, to purchase or pay the value in specie, of any promissory note, bill or other evidence of debt, given by the state, by a company or corporation, or by an individual. The credit of a state, a banking company or individuals, is good when they can redeem all their stock, notes or bills, at par.


In your view, Christ only made a way for you to be "1.purchased back to Himself." The death of Christ didn't actual "2.repurchase" anybody, but only made the way to God possible. I only allows for one to chioose to "3.rescue" themselves. Jesus didn't actually "4.compensate" for sin, but only for the fall. We were not "5.freed" from our sinful natures as man still has a propensity for evil, nor, in your view, did the death of Christ actually "5.free" anybody from eternal punishment. You deny that Christs death was a vicarious sacrifice because it did not "6.pay the penalty" of anything. man is left to himself to deal with his sins. It surely didn't actually "7. save" anybody, only made men salvable. I hope you understand the error here in your definition.

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Those that do not believe have already been condemned.


Then we all die, because at one time, we were all unbelievers. Since Christ didn't actually atone for this sin, all men perish by it's commission.

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Unless you can theologically show that Adam did not of his own will chose to sin, you can make a statement that man has no will. You will need to show that God also has no will, because scripturally that is part of our Image of God.


Once again, you misrepresent reformed beliefs. I truly hope you take to learning what you teach against. Nobody here denies that we make choices. We deny that we make them from a free-will. We also believe those wills are forever linked to our nature, which affects how we make decisions.

Could you offer a passage that says man has free-will, please?


God bless,

william

Re: Total Depravity with scriptural support #20607
Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:28 PM
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He atoned for every sin of the world. That is what is meant by freeing us from the condemnation, judgement of Adam, DEATH, and sin, our own sin's penalty which is spiritual death. He actually saved us from two kinds of death.


Yup, universalism. ALL sins are paid for, ALL men are saved from both the fall AND hell. Why are some still condemned?


God bless,

william

Re: Total Depravity with scriptural support #20608
Thu Jan 06, 2005 12:31 AM
Thu Jan 06, 2005 12:31 AM

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averagefellar,

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I have yet to you exegete that assertion from scripture. I don't want to hear how you and some of your closest friends believe alike, I want Gods Word. That isn't redemption by any definition I have seen. What you put forth is that the death of Christ saved none. It only made all men salvable, actual salvation being according to mans whimsical choices. You deny the vicarious nature of the atonement and therefore limit it's power.
It is not redeemption by your definition. As yet you have not shown that the Apostles taught redemption with your meaning.
I believe I stated before that He saved every single human being. He did the exact opposite of what
Adam did in the fall. I listed the texts before however here they are. They stand on their own, It is really plain English, you don't even need the Greek. By the way, ALL in Greek does not mean "some".
II Cor 5:14-19; Col 1:15-20, John 5:28-29, Rom 5:14-19, I Cor 15:20-22. John 12:32, Acts 24:15, Acts 23:6.

Quote
actual salvation being according to mans whimsical choices. You deny the vicarious nature of the atonement and therefore limit it's power.
Yes, man's individual salvation is dependent on his own choice. It is what will save you or condemn you in eternity. My definition of atonement does not limit it extent nor power thereof. He redeemed all of mankind. His atonement paid the penalty of every man's sin, namely spiritual death. That is the only death that remains. Christ overcame the physcial death for all of mankind as well. We still die, but it is a passing from mortality to immortality. Life to all. See the texts above.

Quote
Then why do people still die? Did Adam need salvation prior to the fall? If man is has been returned to his pre-adamic state, every man is already in communion with God.

Yes, Adam was in the process of salvation. He was neither created mortal nor immortal. If he had stayed working with God to the end he would have attained immortality. He was created to do a job. Man still has that purpose. God did not change the reason He created us. If He did, I need scripture to show that God's purpose was changed. Also that man's essence was changed, which you are also alluding.

People die because God did not change the condition of this world at this time. Man still dies, has a physical death but it is simply a passage to eternity. Death actually terminates man's sinful nature. He does not take corruptibleness into heaven with him. Christ overcame and paid the penalty of our sins which is spiritual death. Unless we believe, we will die. Ah, sounds so much like the commandment He gave to Adam. Must be a correlation.

The pre-Adamic state is to have the choice. Before Christ we were eternally condemned to die physically, and spiritually. We have been restored to the ability to fulfill the commandment of our created purpose.

Quote
That is not the definition of redeemed.
It may not be yours, but it is both scriptural and answers your printed definition. It fulfills all but the 9th and 11th which do not apply.

Quote
In your view, Christ only made a way for you to be "1.purchased back to Himself." The death of Christ didn't actual "2.repurchase" anybody, but only made the way to God possible. I only allows for one to chioose to "3.rescue" themselves. Jesus didn't actually "4.compensate" for sin, but only for the fall. We were not "5.freed" from our sinful natures as man still has a propensity for evil, nor, in your view, did the death of Christ actually "5.free" anybody from eternal punishment. You deny that Christ's death was a vicarious sacrifice because it did not "6.pay the penalty" of anything. man is left to himself to deal with his sins. It surely didn't actually "7. save" anybody, only made men salvable. I hope you understand the error here in your definition.

You are the one that is trying to limit the work of Christ. He paid the price for every single human being. Scriptually known as the LOST.
It did make Union with God possible but that was the purpose of Christ's work. To have man back into Union with Him in order to fulfill his created purpose. If Christ is going to do for God what man was specifcially created to perform, why create man in the first place. God created man for companionship. God is communal. That is why he created man to be so. But He also created man with a will to love Him freely. Not under complusion, then why create. I can make anything love me if I am able to control the loving, right? The best example is marriage. I like to see you control the love of your spouse. Only your partner can control their own love, not that of the other. If you could control it, it would not be love.

We were not freed from our sinful natures. I like to see you prove both from scripture and reality that this is even romotely a possibility. The is the war that Paul speaks about between man's flesh and his spirit. It is up to us and using the Grace God gives to us to remain IN Christ and to prevail in keeping the spirit over the flesh.

He saved man from eternal punishment but that is a choice all men make.

Quote
Then we all die, because at one time, we were all unbelievers. Since Christ didn't actually atone for this sin, all men perish by it's commission.
I have no understanding of what you are trying to say here. It makes absolutely no sense.
Read, John 3:18. If every man believed, none would die. Whether man, today, after Christ, dies spiritually is up to him.

Quote
Once again, you misrepresent reformed beliefs. I truly hope you take to learning what you teach against. Nobody here denies that we make choices. We deny that we make them from a free-will. We also believe those wills are forever linked to our nature, which affects how we make decisions.

Could you offer a passage that says man has free-will, please?
Man's will is always free. It is independent of Gods will. It is never bound in any way by God. You just want God to take the responsibility for what man does, Christ redeemed our natures from the bondage of death which held us captive. The way we use that will, our person, each person uses their will differently. The essence of man, his nature is the same for all of us. We are identical. However, how we use it, or the agency of that will has been freed because our nature, by the Incarnation.
So I can assume that you do not really believe in the Incarnation. That Christ redeemed mankind. He cannot redeem only a portion or some. Again, if He in fact did this, then part of the universe was redeemed as well, but which part. Can you explain from scripture.
Do the converse for me. Show from scripture that man does not have a free will?

Re: Total Depravity with scriptural support #20609
Thu Jan 06, 2005 12:33 AM
Thu Jan 06, 2005 12:33 AM

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CovenantInBlood,

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If all men are saved, why are some still condemned?
Because you do not use the word "saved" correctly in the proper context it is being used.

First, salvation is correcting the fall. That is as simple as it can get. If your explanations of salvation do not align with the fall, you have something incorrect.

Adam sinned plunged mankind, not at few men, into Death and Sin. All men die. all men sin because they are dead. If Christ is going to correct the fall, assuming that you agree with this premise, then He must of necessity save those that fell due to Adam. Since all men fell, then all men are saved. However, the word saved must be qualified. First, because we are speaking of Christ's redemption of man. Secondly, it should always be qualified or understood to be saying "saved from death and sin".
These are some of the text that show this correlation; II Cor 5:14-19; Col 1:15-20, John 5:28-29, Rom 5:14-19, I Cor 15:20-22. John 12:32, Acts 24:15, Acts 23:6.

If you show that Christ's Work was partial, then you need to show also just what part of the universe was saved. He saved the created universe. The universe by Genesis also suffered the pangs of death and corruption. Or is man the only thing that dies?

The fact that all men will be raised also speaks to the fact that Christ died for ALL men, mankind.

However, back to Adam. Adam did not have a problem walking with God. God created man for a very specific purpose. Adam was doing this walking, was in a personal, intimate relationship with God. He was created to be prophet, king and priest of God's creation. God redeemed for mankind these three offices. We also know that man was to be conformed to God's Image. That is the work that Adam was in the process of performing when he sinned. By sinning, death came and death wrought more sin, and man's union with God was terminated.

There was nothing wrong with the walk, it just could not take place. Christ overcame death and sin IN ORDER THAT MAN COULD AGAIN BE IN UNION WITH HIM. Man can again do so, but God has left, as He did with Adam, the free choice to choose whether to serve God or Satan.

This latter portion is called the salvation of man as opposed to the salvation or redemption of mankind. Once you have that understood, the rest of Scripture should fall into place.
The Incarnation was specifically to redeem His creation of which man is only a part.

The first part, redemption is objective. It is imposed on mankind. Mankind has nothing to do with it, cannot change it, did not contribute anything to it. God our of love for His creation redeemed it for Himself. However, the part dealing with walking with God is all man's decision. That does not mean Grace is not involved, nor that God is not active. In fact, it is all God here as well, because He calls all men to repentance. The Holy Spirit was poured out upon all flesh for the specific purpose of God calling them to repentance.

However, some men will refuse to believe. Others will believe for a time and depart.

By putting the salvation of man into the salvation or redemption of mankind you have Christ accomplishing the purpose of which man was specifically created to perform. You have Adam's walk with God as the problem in the fall rather than the sin.

You not only limit God's redemptive plan, but you then want Christ to do the work for which man was created to perform. Another way of saying it, Christ is now walking with God. He replaced man and his role in creation.

Re: Total Depravity with scriptural support #20610
Thu Jan 06, 2005 12:43 AM
Thu Jan 06, 2005 12:43 AM

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averagefellar,

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My comments: He atoned for every sin of the world. That is what is meant by freeing us from the condemnation, judgement of Adam, DEATH, and sin, our own sin's penalty which is spiritual death. He actually saved us from two kinds of death.

Your comments:
Yup, universalism. ALL sins are paid for, ALL men are saved from both the fall AND hell. Why are some still condemned?


I think you better revisit the definition of universalism. There is absolutely nothing I stated that supports the correct understanding of Universalism. Either what it means today, which is far different than Origen's first espousal of the theory which was condemned by the Church in the 5th century with the 5th Ecumenical Council.

Re: Total Depravity with scriptural support #20611
Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:42 AM
Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:42 AM
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sojourner

I noticed that a few times you have misrepresented Calvinism. I don't know you well enough to know if this is intentional or not. But thought I would give you the benefit of the doubt.
Here is an article that you can learn more about Calvinism.
www.the-highway.com/Death.html
At least that way you will not have an excuse for misrepresenting us.

Tom

Re: Total Depravity with scriptural support #20612
Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:19 AM
Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:19 AM
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Sojourner,

Quote
If you show that Christ's Work was partial, then you need to show also just what part of the universe was saved. He saved the created universe. The universe by Genesis also suffered the pangs of death and corruption. Or is man the only thing that dies?


You claim the universe in all its constituent parts has been saved, but yet you believe that a portion of mankind (which is also a part of the universe), will be consigned to eternal death! The salvation of mankind from death and sin, in your scheme, does not guarantee for any man salvation from the death that is the consequence of sin. How can this be? If we have already been ransomed and the devil is defeated, how is it that we may be taken captive by the devil again?


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Definitions #20613
Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:22 AM
Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:22 AM
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Sojourner,

Is it your view then that SALVATION is the restoration of man to a pre-fall state and that REDEMPTION is akin to eating the tree of life? Only they that eat of the tree of life (i.e. those that choose to serve God) will be preserved forever. Are these definitions correct according to your theological system?


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: Definitions [Re: J_Edwards] #20614
Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:51 AM
Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:51 AM
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The Great White North, Eh!
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The Great White North, Eh!
I'd second Tom's suggestion to read that article. Good stuff.


(Latin phrase goes here.)
Re: Total Depravity with scriptural support #20615
Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:34 AM
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It is not redeemption by your definition. As yet you have not shown that the Apostles taught redemption with your meaning. I believe I stated before that He saved every single human being.


I have repeatedly listed scriptures, exegesis, greek meaning, word definitions, etc., and you still claim my definition is wrong. Oh well. God, nor Jesus, saved every individual from hell.

Quote

Salvation
SALVA'TION, n. [L. salvo, to save.]
1. The act of saving; preservation from destruction, danger or great calamity.
2. Appropriately in theology, the redemption of man from the bondage of sin and liability to eternal death, and the conferring on him everlasting happiness. This is the great salvation.
3. Deliverance from enemies; victory. Exo 14.
4. Remission of sins, or saving graces. Luke 19.


That says nothing of a return to a pre-fall state. I am wondering where you get your definitions, and since you only want to offer a few proof texts, I think we will never know.

Quote
By the way, ALL in Greek does not mean "some". II Cor 5:14-19; Col 1:15-20, John 5:28-29, Rom 5:14-19, I Cor 15:20-22. John 12:32, Acts 24:15, Acts 23:6.


Here is a list where ALL, or its Greek original, PAS, is indeed rendered as something besides ALL universally.

Quote

Mat 5:11 Blessed3107 are2075 ye, when3752 men shall revile3679 you,5209 and2532 persecute1377 you, and2532 shall say2036 all manner of evil3956, 4190, 4487 against2596 you5216 falsely,5574 for my sake.1752, 1700

Mat 10:1 And2532 when he had called unto4341 him his848 twelve1427 disciples,3101 he gave1325 them846 power1849 against unclean169 spirits,4151 to5620 cast them out,1544, 846 and2532 to heal2323 all manner3956 of sickness3554 and2532 all manner3956 of disease.3119

Luk 11:42 But235 woe3759 unto you,5213 Pharisees!5330 for3754 ye tithe586 mint2238 and2532 rue4076 and2532 all manner3956 of herbs,3001 and2532 pass over3928 judgment2920 and2532 the3588 love26 of God:2316 these5023 ought1163 ye to have done,4160 and not to leave the other undone.2548, 3361, 863

Act 10:12 Wherein1722, 3739 were5225 all manner3956 of fourfooted beasts5074 of the3588 earth,1093 and2532 wild beasts,2342 and2532 creeping things,2062 and2532 fowls4071 of the3588 air.3772

Rom 7:8 But1161 sin,266 taking2983 occasion874 by1223 the3588 commandment,1785 wrought2716 in1722 me1698 all manner3956 of concupiscence.1939 For1063 without5565 the law3551 sin266 was dead.3498

1Pe 1:15 But235 as2596 he which hath called2564 you5209 is holy,40 so2532 be1096 ye846 holy40 in1722 all manner3956 of conversation;391

(KJV)


You interpretational abilities seem lacking, significantly. I just provided three gospels and three other places where PAS is translated something other than ALL. Looks like my point is actually made from scripture, again.

The rest of your post was simply rehashed junk. It's all been refuted. It is also, once again, minus any scriptural support.


God bless,

william

Re: Total Depravity with scriptural support #20616
Thu Jan 06, 2005 12:47 PM
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averagefellar,

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God, nor Jesus, saved every individual from hell.
Never stated that He did, In fact, I have been stating the opposite. You have a serious misunderstanding of what Christ actually accomplished for mankind.

Quote
That says nothing of a return to a pre-fall state. I am wondering where you get your definitions, and since you only want to offer a few proof texts, I think we will never know.

Your definitions precisely define the redemptive plan of Christ. The texts, I believe there were about 10 of them that show that Christ overcame the judgement of the fall. If the Fall was corrected then Christ brought mankind back to the prefall condition whereby Adam was in communion with God. Man can now fulfill his created purpose.

Quote
You interpretational abilities seem lacking, significantly. I just provided three gospels and three other places where PAS is translated something other than ALL. Looks like my point is actually made from scripture, again.
Again, they all mean all. There is no qualification that it is less than all. Does not imply some manner, but all manner. All manner of fourfouted beasts is that all fourfooted beasts but there are several different kinds (manner) of fourfooted beasts. You need it just to support your false supposition which is not based on Scripture but a superinposed concept and then you go about with your excellent scholarship to proove that some texts might and could be interpreted the way you wish or need. They have not been so interpreted since the beginning.

Quote
The rest of your post was simply rehashed junk. It's all been refuted. It is also, once again, minus any scriptural support.
All you have refuted that it does not align with your personal opinion of your supposition. It aligns with what the Church has taught and believed from the beginning.

Re: Total Depravity with scriptural support #20617
Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:06 PM
Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:06 PM

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CovenantInBlood,

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You claim the universe in all its constituent parts has been saved, but yet you believe that a portion of mankind (which is also a part of the universe), will be consigned to eternal death! How can this be?

First, it is not my claim. First and foremost it is what has been delievered once to the saints for all time. Man is never consigned to hell other than by his choice. God merely passes judgement of what man did with the Gifts of Christ. We do not hold the view that God predestined man either to heaven nor to hell. Neither does the Bible.

Quote
The salvation of mankind from death and sin, in your scheme, does not guarantee for any man salvation from the death that is the consequence of sin.
It guarantees every man eternal immortality. But it does not guarantee consequence of the penalty of sin if man choses to ignore God and His call to repent. Christ freed all men to be able to chose, the same as Adam, instead of being held eternally in the judgement of Adam and his one sin. Physical death has been conquered for all men. Our physical death is but a passing into immortality at the last day. Spiritual death is still a reality for all men in their lifetimes.


Quote
If we have already been ransomed and the devil is defeated, how is it that we may be taken captive by the devil again?
Christ conquered Death. Satan no longer has dominion over death. However, spiritual death is still a reality because Satan still exists in this world. We need not be held by him if we so chose. But that is the whole purpose of living the Christian life. To live IN Christ and to overcome the devil and his temptations and wiles.

Re: Total Depravity with scriptural support #20618
Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:13 PM
Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:13 PM

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J Edwards,

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Is it your view then that SALVATION is the restoration of man to a pre-fall state and that REDEMPTION is akin to eating the tree of life? Only they that eat of the tree of life (i.e. those that choose to serve God) will be preserved forever. Are these definitions correct according to your theological system?
The word you use here, SALVATION, is redemption. Leave the Tree of Life out. It was in the Garden and man was removed, just so Adam could not partake, thus making man's sinful condition, death, eternal. That is what Christ overcame. Christ could and did overcome death. But He made LIFE ETERNAL for all of mankind.

It is not just a matter of choosing, We must live IN Christ our whole lives from the time of our entry into the Kingdom whether as infants or adults.

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