I'll have to go take another look at that passage, but I am thinking that it refers to the wisdom that God imparts to men--one of His communicable attributes. I don't think it could be referring to the wisdom of the Godhead, for that is incommunicable, and therefore, unattainable by men.
Trust the past to God's mercy, the present to God's love and the future to God's providence." - St. Augustine Hiraeth
You are a thought provoking rascal. But, unlike Cain, I have decided to "keep" you instead of becoming jealous.
It was my thought first off, and until proven differently, that the attributes of the Godhead, as decided by the council at Nicaea (Nicea), were neither to be confounded (confused) nor separated.
The Father
"Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You." (John 17:7)
The Son
"In the beginning was the Word" (Word = Logos = wisdom)
"And the child grew and became strong in spirit, filled with wisdom and the grace of God was upon Him." (Luke 2:40)
"but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God." (1 Cor. 1:23,24)
The Spirit
"But the manifestations of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit," (1 Cor. 12:7,8ff)
The Trinity
"Oh the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!" (Roms. 11:33)
In Him
Denny
Roms. 3:22-24
Denny
Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
I have wondered the same thing. I have also wondered if wisdom was respresenting the Holy Spirit. Wisdom, or "she" "calls out" to those who are "simple" all the time. She also hews out her seven pillars etc. To me, that is wooing, and also working. I related it more to the work of the Spirit. Also, "she" says she was with God since before the foundation of the earth. I don't know.. it's a good question <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
gotribe said: I'll have to go take another look at that passage, but I am thinking that it refers to the wisdom that God imparts to men--one of His communicable attributes. I don't think it could be referring to the wisdom of the Godhead, for that is incommunicable, and therefore, unattainable by men.
I'm thinking particularly of Prov. 8:21ff.
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Michele said:I have wondered the same thing. I have also wondered if wisdom was respresenting the Holy Spirit. Wisdom, or "she" "calls out" to those who are "simple" all the time. She also hews out her seven pillars etc. To me, that is wooing, and also working. I related it more to the work of the Spirit. Also, "she" says she was with God since before the foundation of the earth. I don't know.. it's a good question <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Yes, I have also seen it suggested that Wisdom is the Spirit. But, like Ben, I wonder if Wisdom is one of the Persons of the Godhead (the Father, the Son, or the Spirit), why is she a she?
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
gotribe said: I'll have to go take another look at that passage, but I am thinking that it refers to the wisdom that God imparts to men--one of His communicable attributes. I don't think it could be referring to the wisdom of the Godhead, for that is incommunicable, and therefore, unattainable by men.
I'm thinking particularly of Prov. 8:21ff.
That section of Proverbs particularly verses 22-31 speak of wisdom in a kind of poetic way. My bible's study notes starting at verse 22 say, "The Lord This Hymn-like section presents wisdom as the basis of design in the universe. The focus is unusual, but this view of wisdom does not go against the theology of the covenant and God's saving acts in Israel."
possessed me. Wisdom is not a fourth divine person, but an attribute of God that is given expression in creation as well as redemption. In this chapter, wisdom is personified for poetic effect. The attributes of God are eternal, so the figure of wisdom is said to be from "the beginning."
at the beginning of His way. Wisdom is the prior counsel of God's will (Eph. 1:11), the eternal decree that establishes all things in their relationships and determines the course of history.
before His works of old. Wisdom existed prior to God's self-revelation in His covenant and saving acts.
8:24 I was brought forth. The wise plan of God precedes His action. Reference to being "brought forth" suggests that wisdom is uniquely the child of God, but this is still a poetic device and does not refer to a new divine being.
8:27 I was there. Wisdom was prior to creation and a participant in it. Creation is the first great demonstation of the wisdom of God.
Quote
Proverbs 8:22-31 (NKJV)
22"The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. 23I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth. 24When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water. 25Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth; 26While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, Or the primal dust of the world. 27When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep, 28When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep, 29When He assigned to the sea its limit, So that the waters would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth, 30Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman;[a] And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, 31Rejoicing in His inhabited world, And my delight was with the sons of men.
Wes
When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
Wes is correct. In addition wisdom generally means "masterful understanding, "skill," or "expertize" (1:2). In biblical texts outside Proverbs the term is used of technical and artistic skills (Ex 28:3; 31:6), of the arts of magic (Ex 7:11; Is 3:31), of government (Ecc 4:14; Jer 50:35), of diplomacy (1 KIngs 5:7), of war (Is 10:13). Moreover, some have the wisdom to judge (1 Kings 3:28; Is 11:1-6) and much more.....
Proverbs 8 is a little more meticulous. Wisdom is divided into two sections; (1) historical (12-21, and (2) primordial (22-31) times. The 1st section features wisdoms communicable attributes of counsel, understanding, and strength that enable kings to rule and bestow wealth and honor on her lovers. The second pertains to her existence before creation and to her competence and authority, which enable her to bestow authority and order upon rulers in historical time. The wise ruler's ability to decree social order conforms to Wisdoms delight in God's decrees that ordered the cosmos.
A great book that was just released is The Book of Proverbs (Chapters 1-15) by Bruce Waltke. This is part of the NICOT series and is almost 700 pages in length. Waltke is tremendous in OT studies (ok, I am a little prejudice since he teaches Advanced Hebrew Exegesis and Judges-Poets at RTS) and though I am not finished with this yet, what I have read thus far has been exceptionally superb. The book is worth the bibliographies alone.
J_Edwards said: Wes is correct. In addition wisdom generally means "masterful understanding, "skill," or "expertize" (1:2). In biblical texts outside Proverbs the term is used of technical and artistic skills (Ex 28:3; 31:6), of the arts of magic (Ex 7:11; Is 3:31), of government (Ecc 4:14; Jer 50:35), of diplomacy (1 KIngs 5:7), of war (Is 10:13). Moreover, some have the wisdom to judge (1 Kings 3:28; Is 11:1-6) and much more.....
Proverbs 8 is a little more meticulous. Wisdom is divided into two sections; (1) historical (12-21, and (2) primordial (22-31) times. The 1st section features wisdoms communicable attributes of counsel, understanding, and strength that enable kings to rule and bestow wealth and honor on her lovers. The second pertains to her existence before creation and to her competence and authority, which enable her to bestow authority and order upon rulers in historical time. The wise ruler's ability to decree social order conforms to Wisdoms delight in God's decrees that ordered the cosmos.
A great book that was just released is The Book of Proverbs (Chapters 1-15) by Bruce Waltke. This is part of the NICOT series and is almost 700 pages in length. Waltke is tremendous in OT studies (ok, I am a little prejudice since he teaches Advanced Hebrew Exegesis and Judges-Poets at RTS) and though I am not finished with this yet, what I have read thus far has been exceptionally superb. The book is worth the bibliographies alone.
Great commentary and precisely the one I reached for when I read this post. Thanks. Book of Proverbs: Chapters 1-15 (New International Commentary on the OT) Bruce K. Waltke Retail price: $50.00 Westminster Bookstore: $31.50 ISBN 0-8028-2545-1 (Wm. B Eerdmans Publishing Co. 2004.
"why is she a she?" I don't think that we are identifying the noun for wisdom here as referring to God's gender as God is genderless. As a literary technique, wisdom—as well as folly—are personified as women. i.e. the woman wisdom, the woman folly. "The line between wwisdom's personification and wisdom itself becomes attenuated. Contrary to many biblical theologians who think that personification is a late development in the wisdom tradition, ancient Near Eastern literatures offer many examples of this dramatic figure that gives abstract qualities a human face."
Your question is good. In 8:35, Whoever finds me finds life" G. von Rad asserts "only Jahweh can speak in this way." (Old Testament Theology) Does this mean then that God is female? How? God is a spirit and therefore genderless, yet God created mankind in His image and he created them male and female. Yet the attributes woman wisdom represents are more divine than human.
Wisdom is something begotten form God. Something that is taught in the home. Its acquisition brings with it longevity and God's favor. Woman wisdom, (personified wisdom) supports the father's wisdom (personified wisdom). The father's wisdom says to his son to call out for the "words from my mouth—wisdom— and wisdom promises God's favor.
I'm sorry, I can see how my response was not clear.
What I meant to say was that I believe that the wisdom of God cannot be separated among the members of the Godhead. Therefore, the pesonification in Scripture of the attribute of God's wisdom as "She" is simply a reflection by the Holy Spirit of the "beauty" in its reality.
Denny
Rom. 3:22-24
Denny
Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
