The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Noahide Laws and the Christian

Dear friends in Christ,

I am a Christian believer and want to share with you information that I pray you will be inspired in Truth to find out more about. The subject… the 7 Noahide Laws, their anti-Christian nature and the controversy they are and I believe will be creating.

If you haven’t heard of them before, I would not be surprised, as I have heard nothing within the mainstream media, churches etc. This is why I am posting this here. The 7 Noahide Laws are a set of Judaic Laws, which according to the Talmud (not the Torah) were handed down to Noah for the Gentile nations. According to these laws, belief in Jesus is considered as idolatry and is forbidden. The 7th Law requires the establishment of courts to interpret and administer these laws, etc.

As much as I sincerely doubt the average Christian or American has heard of these, a sad oddity remains. In March of 1991, Congress passed a Law HR102-14 establishing “Education Day” in honor of Rabbi Schneerson; acknowledging ‘Our Values’ to be the 7 Noahide Laws and stating that necessary preoccupation of educating future generations of these values is needed.

At this point, if you were to do an Internet search on “Noahide Laws” you will find a massive number of websites… Christians exposing material related to them, as well as Jewish-Noahide sites. I believe you will mostly only find the topic on the internet, because at this time… the internet still is a haven for free speech.

The more that I have learned about this movement, the politics, etc… the more I recognize the Noahide political and spiritual agenda to be the real-deal, being the final enemy of the saints of Jesus Christ. I pray that as many who read this will learn about what is taking place and share the information speedily.

In Jesus’ Mighty Name,
Kathy

(Fred) The "final enemy of the saints?" Really? Even more so that Islam? If nothing fulfills the picture of the beast and false prophet from Revelation more than Islam and Mohammed, then I don't know what it would be. I would be more genuinely concerned with Islam than some obscure cult.

Fred

Having many Chabad Lubavitcher friends, this is no threat to Christianity. The Chabad folks are typically the ones "behind" the 7 Noahide Laws (which have been around much longer than Christianity).
Incidentally, they teach that Gentiles who follow the 7 Laws have a place in the World to Come. Thus they are NOT trying to convert people to Judaism, nor away from Christianity! The Rebbe ("Blessed be he, the Lubavitchers would state) stated such in the 20th Century, and the previous Lubavitcher Rebbes spoke in similar terms. So no, this is not of concern to Christians.
There are fringe people out there, such as John Stone who are very anti-Christian. But John Stone is not Jewish, nor does he claim to be (although he sure wants to be!).

To provide the general "The Highway" reader with a bit of background, I have attached the following:
(One note: Jews always use 'G-d' to refer to God, as they view it improper to speak or reference the Almighty's name.)

The Seven Universal Laws
G-d gave Noah and all his descendants (B'nei Noach or "children of Noah") seven commandments that we are to obey. These Seven Universal Laws (also known as the "Seven Noahide Laws") were reaffirmed with Moses and the Jewish people at Mt. Sinai, so that modern observance of these laws is done according to the specifics provided in the Oral Torah (the revelation at Sinai). These Seven Commandments (mitzvos) are not arbitrary laws, but rather G-d's plan for mankind. (To the Jewish people G-d gave the entire Torah [teaching] as their Law. They therefore have a special responsibility—with special commandments—to be the priesthood of the world, a "light unto the nations.")

Non-Jews who (1) reject all idolatrous ideas and accept the kingship of the One G-d, (2) accept the priesthood of the Jewish people as the guardians and teachers of Torah, and (3) commit to following the Seven Universal Laws as revealed in the Oral Torah revealed at Mt. Sinai are often called "Hasidic gentiles" or "Noahides." The term "Hasidic gentile" is derived from a classic commentary by the Rambam, Rav Moshe ben Maimon (Maimonides), in The Laws of Kings 8:11: "Anyone who accepts upon himself the fulfillment of these Seven Mitzvos [commandments] and is precise in their observance is considered one of the hasidei umos ha'olam ["Hasidim of the nations of the world"]—the righteous among the nations—and will merit a share in the World to Come."

The Seven Universal Laws, also known as the Seven Noahide Laws, are the minimal observance for non-Jews. The source of these laws and the basis of their understanding is the Oral Torah, which G-d gave to the Jewish people at Mount Sinai along with His Written Law. Hasidic gentiles ("Noahides") are also expected to perform additional mitzvos, such as giving to charity, praying regularly, and studying Torah. By learning from the Jews and performing the mitzvos (commandments, laws, or good deeds), non-Jews have a crucial role in repairing and developing G-d's Creation.

The Seven Universal Laws are the following:

1.Prohibition of idolatry

2.Prohibition of blasphemy

3.Prohibition of murder

4.Prohibition of theft

5.Prohibition of illicit relations

6.Prohibition of eating live meat

7.Prohibition of failing to establish courts of justice

The Seven Universal Laws actually encompass numerous details and applications that are not explained here (by one opinion, 66 laws, but even these are only a very basic guide). One should also keep in mind that these laws are only the minimal basis for a Hasidic gentile's service to G-d, since there are many Jewish mitzvos that non-Jews are encouraged to adopt to accomplish more, thereby refining oneself and the rest of Creation.

***I’m confused by the Quote Function on this Board***li0scc0 said :

Incidentally, THEY TEACH THAT GENTILES WHO FOLLOW THE 7 LAWS HAVE A PLACE IN THE WORLD TO COME. Thus they are NOT trying to convert people to Judaism, nor away from Christianity! The Rebbe ("Blessed be he, the Lubavitchers would state) stated such in the 20th Century, and the previous Lubavitcher Rebbes spoke in similar terms. So no, this is not of concern to Christians.

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My Reply:
This is Most DEFINITLEY a concern to Christians. Only the Gentiles who follow the 7 Laws have a place in the World to Come. This is an unprovocative and unbloody way to say it. Christians who are considered “idolators” by these Laws, because they believe in Jesus, will NOT have a place in the World to Come. Isn’t this a Christian forum? I will say it here… Jesus… “Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord”

Kathy

Hi, Kathy. Welcome to the board. I pray that you find Godly edification here.

Please help me to understand what you are saying.

When I read your post(s) I think to myself, "Just because people in this fallen world (such as the folks you describe) are teaching non-Biblical truths that does NOT make them any less un-Biblical than they already are. Why is this any more concern to a Bible-believing, Christ-depending Christian than any other cult (such as the Mormons, Jehovah Witness, etc.)?"

Seeking to understand,
Ted

To find about how to use the "Quote" feature, do one of the following:

• Read the relevant section in the "Users Guide"; click here: Reply with a quote.
• Post your question in the HELP Forum.
• PM me or one of the other Administrators or Moderators and ask for specific instructions.
• In the "Welcome PM" you received it was suggested that you take some time and read through the "FAQ", "User Guide" and the threads in the "New Features" Forum as there is a wealth information in them and detailed destructions on how to use most all the features of this Board. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I do hope that this was a rhetorical question or one specifically directed at the person you replied to? If The Highway isn't representative of historic Christianity, then what website/board is? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" />

BTW....... Welcome to the Board!

In His Grace,

Fred,

Yes. The final enemy of the saints. Now in this the age of information, All who profess ‘Jesus is Lord’, interested in knowing the Truth can discover and re-read why Jesus said “Beware the leaven of the Pharisees.” Then examine and re-examine our semantics, and how important words are, such as ‘Judeo-Christian’ as well as our political and cultural language. Political correctness, Religious Right, as well as Christian Zionism. How we have all come to accept that it is good to fight wars when God is on your side.

The most powerful nation on earth… the United States of America will soon be teaching us how to be a part of the World to Come, not a small thing at all… just because it is likely that most of the readers in this group are not familiar with the Lubavitch movement does not mean that they should be uninformed… (Don’t be) of what happened… how a free country is stolen in the name of freedom… and the ideological, spiritual and political agendas that transpired, and are transpiring this very day. It is true that many things happened obscurely.

In Jerusalem… In October of last year, the Sanhedrin was re-established… A first in 1,600 years. Very soon the “Moschiach” will be revealed… because… the Sanhedrin says so… THEY will reveal him. “The Redemption draweth nigh.” And… to the Gentiles… those of you who follow the Laws of Noah will have a place in the World to Come… that being, the future. Those of you who do not… Do NOT, And WILL NOT have a place in “The World to Come... by your choice” and will be beheaded. This is the Truth. The Talmudic punishment for transgression of the Noahide Laws is death by decapitation. Read, Learn and Find Out for yourselves. (Please) And to all those who Love the Truth. Jesus is His Name! And Stand Firm, and Do and Will Have a Place in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Kathy

I am not as inclined to believe these Noahide folks pose a real threat to genuine Christianity. I would say Rick Warren is a bigger threat to biblical Christianity than some obscure Jewish sect. Most certainly the head hunters from the religion of Islam.

Fred

Ted,

To answer your question as to why the Lubavitch movement and the 7 Noahide Laws are of any more concern to any other un-Christian movement, I tried to cover in my response to Fred.

Also, my previous comment about whether of not this is a Christian forum... well it is rhetorical. It was in contrast to li0scc0's reference to the Lubavitch quote... "the Rebbe... Blessed be he" - - Knowing that this Lubavitch statement is Blessing the G-d of the Talmud, not the Old Testament, and a tradition that despises Jesus, and calls him a false God and a liar. A tradition that will murder the saints. And this is whay I also said "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord"

Kathy

Fred,

I tell you what. I promise to look up Rick Warren... and why you make this statement. But I find it harder to believe that Rick, all by himself, is going to set up a One World Government. And I am wondering how he is going to gain control of the Temple mount. But I do promise I will check him out. I'll say this again. Our American values are the 7 Noahide Laws... Congress says so.

Kathy

You wouldn't happen to be a Dispensationalist, would you?

Tom

Hello Kathy. Welcome to the Highway. I think you are claiming that some Biblical prophecy is being fulfilled by these events? If so, could you provide some scriptural references? Thanks.


God bless,

william

You wouldn't happen to be a dispensationalist, would you?

LOL! I posted mine before I read yours...

Kathy, I used to believe in dispensationalism: that God has a different plan for the Jews than for the Gentiles, that the Church would be raptured before a 7 -year tribulation, that the old Temple sacrificial system would be reinstated, that the saints would reign on the earth for a literal 1,000 years, etc. But I examined my tradition in light of Scripture, and I found my beliefs wanting. You may want to read some of these articles:

Eschatology: the End of the World by O. Palmer Robertson

Eschatology: the Rapture by O. Palmer Robertson

Eschatology: the Millennium by O. Palmer Robertson

Eschatology: the Future of the Jews by O. Palmer Robertson

Notes on Eschatology by Sam Waldron (I also found his book The End Times Made Simple extremely helpful)

aren't we supposed to be watching out for Jesuit priests, and anyone who doesn't read the king james only ..the 1611 version?

Michele

Blasted Jesuits . . . I tell ya, THEY's the ones who invented all these newfangled translations!!! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" />

Kyle, why don't you call Dave Hunt. I'll call Tim LaHaye. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/noevil.gif" alt="" />

Kathy,

I had at one point done a lot of research into Judaism and was very attracted to the "Noahide movement." Frankly, this movement is far too small to be of any real importance since most people involved prefer to go the full mile and become Jews rather than continue to exist in the kind of lesser spiritual state which obedience to the Noahide laws alone confers upon them. Furthermore, many of the Jews' most revered sages considered Christians to be in basic obedience to the prohibition against idolatry.

I'm on it, sister! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

Wow! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cheers2.gif" alt="" /> great minds think a like.

Tom

Hi Semper,

I'm very behind on this thread I started... I apologize. No, I am not a dispensationalist. I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture. I also believe that in Christ we are one, that distinctions such as Jew, Greek are moot.

I am up very late... and tomorrow I will post scriptural verses that do pertain. What I want to impress is that this topic is not encompassed in the phrase "Noahide Movement." I wonder if it is acceptable in this forum to post a few links if you are interested... I will. Many Christians have devoted countless hours and effort to put info on the web, and most of these are better equipped in their knowledge. I more than anything want to plant the seed of this topic, for Christians who are discerning and seeking to know.

http://www.beismoshiach.org/Moshiach/moshiach341.htm
The Rebbe’s Revolution In 5762
Ten years passed. On the one hand, world-wide terror increased. On the other hand, the world continued to progress towards the time of the Rebbe Mendel Menachem Schneerson’s revelation. Somehow, the Rebbe arranged it so that Bush’s son would become president too and complete what his father left unfinished.
. . .
But since the time has come for the revelation of the Rebbe MH"M, THE U.S. HAS NO CHOICE, AND MUST FULFILL ITS DESTINY AND INSTILL THE SHEVA MITZVOS* WITHIN ALL OF HUMANITY. (7 Noahide Laws)*

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Way Too Much God / Was the president's speech a case of "mission inebriation"? Fri, January 21, 2005

…The president's speech seemed rather heavenish. It was a God-drenched speech. This president, who has been accused of giving too much attention to religious imagery and religious thought, has not let the criticism enter him -- It seemed a document produced by a White House on a mission. The United States, the speech said, has put the world on notice.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/?id=110006184

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Public Law 102-14
http://www.benamozegh.name/Documents/Benamozegh--US-Bill-102-14.html
House Joint Resolution 104 Public LAW 102-14 102nd Congress 1991
Whereas Congress recognizes the historical tradition of ethical values and principles which are the basis of civilized society and upon which our great Nation, the United States of America, was founded;

Whereas President George W. Bush, distinguished leader of our great Nation, stated `Ethical values are the foundation for civilized society. A society that fails to recognize or adhere to them cannot endure.';

Whereas these ethical values and principles have been the cornerstone of society since the dawn of civilization when they were known as the Seven Noahide laws;

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"It is our duty to force all mankind to accept the seven Noahide laws, and if not - they will be killed." Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg

Nidrasch Talpioth, p. 225-L: "Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night."

Synagogue of Satan
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer . . . be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. . . . Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Revelation 2:9-10, 3:9
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him ARE CALLED, AND CHOSEN, and faithful. Rv:17:14:
Matthew 23:8: But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9: And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
"Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they be sound in the faith: NOT GIVING HEED TO JEWISH FABLES, AND COMMANDMENTS OF MEN, THAT TURN FROM THE TRUTH." (Titus 1:13-14)
Mt:10:17: But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

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Sanhedrin REVIVED Oct 13, 2004 Tiberius

Tractate Sanhedrin Talmud Bavli 57a

The inclusion of heathens, to whom blasphemy is prohibited just as to Israelites, and they are executed by decapitation; FOR EVERY DEATH PENALTY DECREED FOR THE SONS OF NOAH IS ONLY BY DECAPITATION." Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin 57a
Rv:20:4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Jn:17:15: I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

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Will Israel Have A 'King' Soon? The Modern-Day Sanhedrin Say "YES!"
THE JERUSALEM POST - January 12, 2005 -- from Yaakov Katz

Will Jews begin proclaiming "Long live the king" in the near future?
According to a group of 71 Jewish scholars who met this week in the Old City of Jerusalem in the form of a modern-day Sanhedrin "a duplicate of the religious tribunal which convened during the time of the Second Temple" a coronation day is growing closer.

***
Matthew 24:23: Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Rv:1:7: Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

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"Beauty for Ashes"... $15 p.a. (AUS.p.a.+ postage overseas) (all material free Online) offer workshops at the Parliament of the World’s Religions in Cape Town, South Africa." Ten years before the First World Parliament of Religions held in 1893, "The Jewish World" predicted the universal movement of all religions to ward a universal Judaism: "The dispersion of the Jews has rendered them a cosmopolitan people.
They are the only cosmopolitan people, and in this capacity must act, and are acting, as a solvent of national and racial difference. The great Ideal of Judaism is not that Jews shall be allowed to flock together one day in some hole-and-corner fashion, for, if not tribal, at any rate separatist objects; but that the whole world shall be imbued with Jewish teachings, and that in a Universal Brotherhood of Nations a greater Judaism, in fact - all the separate races and religions shall disappear." (Feb. 9-16, 1883)The Universal Brotherhood of Nations and Judaised One World Religion have common origins in Freemasonry. Masonic doctrine is based on the Jewish Kabbalah and Masonic rituals on Kabbalistic interpretations of the Old Testament. Establishment of the World Sabbath as holy day for all religions is, of course, an essential part of the Masonic design to shift Western Civilization away from the Christian traditional observance of the Lord’s Day (Sunday) to obligatory observance of the Hebrew Sabbath (Saturday). THIS WILL PREPARE THE GENTILES FOR ACCEPTANCE OF THE NOAHIDE LAWS and compulsory induction into the mysteries of Freemasonry, whose initiates consider themselves to be the only True Noahides.
"For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: (1 Th 2:14-15)
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! MAT 23:37
Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 1TH 2:15
I KNOW THY WORKS, AND TRIBULATION, AND POVERTY, (BUT THOU ART RICH) AND I KNOW THE BLASPHEMY OF THEM WHICH SAY THEY ARE JEWS, AND ARE NOT, BUT ARE THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN. Revelation 2:9
Who call evil good and good evil…
G-d repeatedly commands the Jews to KILL THIS FALSE PROPHET, lest the EVIL spread and destroy many souls. -- (Talmudic doctrine -- blaspheming Jesus the Son of God)

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Cabalah, Kaballah, Quaballah, Qaballah, Caballa, Cabala - The ancient Babylon oral tradition
ALBERT PIKE MAKES THE CLAIM THAT FREEMASONRY IS FOUNDED UPON THE JEWISH QABALAH: All truly dogmatic religions have issued from the Qabalah and return to it. Everything scientific and grand in the religious dreams of all the Illuminati, Jacob Boehme, Swedenborg, Saint Martin, and others, is borrowed from the Kabalah; all the Masonic associations owe to it their Secrets and their symbols (Morals and Dogmas, page 744).
(kab-BA-lah) n. Kabbalah. Qabbalah, Cabbalah, and other spellings. “Reception; Acceptance.” The Kabbalah codifies Jewish mystical teachings from the 13th century and therefore is mainly Jewish Occultic Medievalism. The Jewish mystical doctrine is distinguished by its theory of ten creative forces (Ten Sefirot) that intervene between the infinite, unknowable God (Ein Sof) and our created world. Through these emanations God created and rules the universe, and it is by influencing them that humans cause God to send to Earth forces of compassion (masculine, right side) or severe judgment (feminine, left side).
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And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High Dan:7:25:
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. -- Gal. 3:29

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Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
Hosea 4:6: MY PEOPLE ARE DESTROYED FOR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE: BECAUSE THOU HAST REJECTED KNOWLEDGE, I WILL ALSO REJECT THEE, THAT THOU SHALT BE NO PRIEST TO ME: SEEING THOU HAST FORGOTTEN THE LAW OF THY GOD, I WILL ALSO FORGET THY CHILDREN.

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ANTI-SEMITISM
‘the Catholic Church condemned anti-Zionism as a cover for anti-Semitism by means of a joint statement issued by a forum of Catholic-Jewish intellectuals.’ (Ha’aretz article of July 7, 2004)
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/449338.html
The New Catholic Catechism, for the first time instructing all Catholics that the Jews do not need to convert to Jesus for salvation. The Pope is a bigoted rascist who believes entirely in the heresy of Jewish blood supremacy. --- www.texemarrs.com
http://nord.twu.net/acl/talmudiclaw.html -- Talmudic Law
The ACL studies Talmudic Law because 1. communitarian law has roots in ancient Eqyptian Judaic communities (called communitarian-ra), 2. our government has embraced the politics of Militant Zionism, and 3. the President and members of the United States Supreme Court now openly support balancing the Constitution of the United States against "Judaic Law." US v. Talmud Law and The Seven Universal Laws... H.J.Res.104.
… As with the Christians and the many very different denominations that represent it, the Torah-Talmud is also an area of contention among the varieties of Jewish people. The key factor to Talmudic law is that it is not fixed law, it is constantly challenged and rewritten, according to case law precepts. And, unlike the Christian arguments, anyone who objects to the overall authority of Talmudic law, or even portions of it, is labeled anti-Semitic (even the Jews). Many American Jews do not even identify with Judaism. It's also important to know most Jews did not orignially support Zionism. Today, opposition to political Zionism and/or the religious Talmudic laws are condemmed as a racist attitiude toward Jewish people and are subject to criminal prosecution in a growing number of countries.
http://messiahtruth.com/anti.html
QUESTION: What is the source of the common thread of anti-Semitism shared by the historical acts of persecution of the Jewish people?
ANSWER: The New Testament.

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall posses the land.
Blessed are they who mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see.
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God
Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

"Any Jew who can pay homage to the New Testament or allow himself to believe in it, is, in my opinion in the same category as a Jew who tries to justify Hitler's Mein Kampf or, as one who covers up for the deeds of the Nazis.” -- Shmuel Golding

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
Jn:8:32: And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Jn:8:36: If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

(Please also read my other new posts)

Fred,

(Rick Warren -- On and Off Topic)
Yesterday I looked up the term “Hegelian Dialectic” a tactic that undermines Truth by omitting (synthesizing) differences by seeking common ground. While on an this page, Lakewood Church was cited as an example… which I went to and found an interesting article about Rick Warren… and his influential popular style. I agree that Rick Warren, and others like him are most definitely a huge threat to biblical Christianity. AND I will tell you how they are part of the topic that I am discussing.

I do not think it is accurate to call this that I’m describing “the Noahide Movement.” The 7 Noahide Laws themselves… are yet unknown ‘values/laws’ for all Gentiles, per the Talmud. The 7th law requires the establishment of courts to enforce the first 6 laws. They are two things… a set of 6 values/laws and an ACTION statement (or promise of.) Currently, they sit as unknown dormant values Congress recognized officially (as Ours)… yet Americans, by and large are unaware of… So, NO… I don’t think that these unknown laws are doing much (any) proselytizing, nor seducing at the moment. They are just sitting there. ***The issue is -- they don’t include Christianity in the ‘World to Come’ … when they are actually enforced.

“…The drilling in the wall kept up, but no one seemed to pay it any mind” (Bob Dylan – Lily, Rosemary and the Jack of Hearts.) This brings me back to Rick Warren and the many things that happened culturally, ideologically, politically and spiritually to get us to where we are today. And I would label it “the CONDITION.” In Hegelian-speak, it is called ‘Synthesis.’ People water down their ‘Truth’ for the good of the group for a unity that everyone can tolerate. Scripture-lite, Politically correct, etc.

Among the many things that transpired to get to this condition was the desire to never offend, and build bridges. Well synthesized Christians do not bat an eye to hear their heritage described as “Judeo-Christian.” It is a friendly and embracing term that shows respect for A. Two different religions, and B. Our shared heritage. IT DOES NEITHER. Because A. Judaism and Christianity, spiritually are in opposition to each other. B. Christians wrongly think that the Old Testament ‘Torah’ is the book of Judaism… though in Judaism the Talmud is the most important book, but it is included in the name ‘Torah’. The Talmud is anti-Christian. And The New Testament is anti-Judaism. They have different goals and they are not reconcilable.

A Christian’s focus is on the life to come, meaning resurrected in Heaven. In Judaism, the World to Come, means something entirely different. When the Jewish Moschiah is ‘revealed’ and whether or not Gentiles follow the 7 Noahide Laws and thus have a place in ‘the World to Come’ – it is meant on earth. When the ‘Moschiach’ is revealed, Noahide Laws will be enforced. TALMUDIC PUNISHMENT FOR TRANSGRESSION OF THESE LAWS IS DEATH BY DECAPITATION.

The efforts and planning to ‘reveal the Moshiach’ can be found as news items, coming out of Jerusalem. The historic reestablishment of the Sanhedrin last October is vocal on their pushing for this revealing. …In the event I am confusing you… I am not a Dispensationalist. I don’t believe in a separate plan by God for the Jewish State. These world events of man are not mystical events that of which no one know the hour. These are world events with far reaching consequence. Jerusalem is ready to establish her Theocracy with her Moschiach appointed by men… and as far as the Gentile nations… The Islamic threat to Israel’s goals will have been subdued. And things… ‘SET.’ In our current Synthesized Condition, we are a Christian, or a Judeo-Christian nation “standing firm with Israel”… because to the American Christian… “it is a Godly thing to do.”

The Synthesis CONDITION we are in has everything to do with everything… what is ‘right’ and ‘wrong’, what is tolerated, what is omitted, which wars are just, whose side to pick… and what we will be willing to swallow and accept. I will end this thread by saying that the Rick Warren approach to salvation might fit in well as it evolves to adjust in the “World to Come” as God’s word keeps evolving to fit comfortably in the minds of watered down Christian America who forgot who she was.

(Please also see other posts I am adding to this forum)

Kyle,

Isn’t the question --- SHOULD there be a question IF Americans, (including Christians) are in obedience of any prohibition of personal belief:

The First Amendment ??? Something about Congress making no law prohibiting free speech and religious belief.

House Joint Resolution 104 Public LAW 102-14 102nd Congress 1991
Whereas Congress recognizes the historical tradition of ethical values and principles which are the basis of civilized society and upon which our great Nation, the United States of America, was founded;

Whereas President George W. Bush, distinguished leader of our great Nation, stated `Ethical values are the foundation for civilized society. A society that fails to recognize or adhere to them cannot endure.';

Whereas these ethical values and principles have been the cornerstone of society since the dawn of civilization when they were known as the Seven Noahide laws;

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“FURTHERMORE, MANY OF THE JEWS' MOST REVERED SAGES CONSIDERED CHRISTIANS TO BE IN BASIC OBEDIENCE TO THE PROHIBITION AGAINST IDOLATRY. “ Kyle said

http://www.noahide.com/lawslist.htm

1. No Idolatry
1) “Against entertaining the thought that there exists a deity except Hashem”

www.noahide.com/yeshu.htm
Who Was Jesus?
The Bible gave a warning about a dangerous, false prophet who would arise to test our faith in G-d. In Deuteronomy 13, G-d describes this false prophet as a member of the Jewish people (v. 2, 7) who would tell true prophecies and would have the power of miracles. G-d Himself would give this false prophet the power to perform miracles and reveal prophecy, but the false prophet would try to seduce the people away from G-d's Law and towards strange gods unknown to Judaism. The purpose would be to test whether we are truly committed to living under the Law, or whether we will be dazzled and fall for the temptation to join a false path to salvation (v. 3-6, 7-8, 11). In this Biblical passage, G-d repeatedly commands the Jews to KILL THIS FALSE PROPHET, lest the EVIL spread and destroy many souls.

"IT IS OUR DUTY TO FORCE ALL MANKIND TO ACCEPT THE SEVEN NOAHIDE LAWS, AND IF NOT - THEY WILL BE KILLED." Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg
Tractate Sanhedrin Talmud Bavli 57a

The inclusion of heathens, to whom blasphemy is prohibited just as to Israelites, and they are executed by decapitation; for EVERY DEATH PENALTY DECREED FOR THE SONS OF NOAH IS ONLY BY DECAPITATION." Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin 57a


Etiquette (by Leonard Cohen)

This Ark you’re building
in your yard
Will you let me on
Will you let me off
Don’t you think
we all should study Etiquette
before we study Magic


Rv:20:4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men… The wrath is come upon them to the uttermost – 1 Th.2:14-16

Synagogue of Satan
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer . . . be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. . . . Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Revelation 2:9-10, 3:9

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Matthew 23:27-33

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From: www.noahide.com/son.htm
The Messiah is a Jewish king who will gather all the Jewish people to Israel, destroy all evil, rebuild the Holy Temple in Jerusalem, and bring true freedom to the world by returning everyone to the Law. He will institute G-d's eternal kingdom here on earth.
The Messiah will teach the Word of G-d to all nations, causing CHRISTIANITY AND ALL OTHER RELIGIONS TO DISAPPEAR. The Bible says that everyone will become a Hasidic Gentile, thirsting for the ancient Truth:
***OR… Bye Bye Christians****

The Rebbe ***Blessed be he NOT*** has revealed that the Messiah will finally arrive now, in our generation, amidst great miracles. He has also announced that every Jew, and every gentile, is a representative of G-d to help bring the Messiah immediately.

Contrary to All men…..

Ted,

Please read the other posts I just added. I agree all false doctrines etc. are a concern. The topic I am presenting to this group, just the 7 Noahide Laws, are a part of a whole… bigger picture. Uniquely, these Laws are now recognized as the values of the United States… (not the 10 commandments, not the Book of Mormon, Hail Mary, etc.)

-Kathy

Kathy,

In reply to William's question about Biblical prophesy you supplied a looooooooooong list of items that were anything but an answer to his question. Frankly, I read through about a 1/3 of what you copy/pasted from some source(s) and got bored. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/sorry.gif" alt="" />

I would be interested, however, in a reply from you that actually dealt with the question asked, since the Scriptures are my authority. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,

Pilgrim,

(I can't help with your boredom, sorry) I did include scriptural quotes. It is a huge topic... I was trying to be comprehensive on a HUGE issue of which there is a lot to present. Maybe, read through it in bits.
I want to create an awareness among the forum readers of events that are taking place. I think it is pretty clear what is taking place. (See the book of Revelations.) As I said earlier... there are Christian comprehensive sites on the Web about what is taking place...

http://www.come-and-hear.com/editor/america_1.html

http://www.sweetliberty.org/perspective/jewishpersecution14.htm

http://www.samliquidation.com/lordjesus.htm

-Kathy

Pilgrim was correct in that there was a lot to read through. I'll take one section at a time.......


Pure eisegesis. Those passages do not say what you place into them. I couldn't find one commentary that even covered this method or belief or interpretation. The dilemma of reading modern events into prophecy can have some very disastrous effects. The predictions of various groups have failed many. Could you point to something in historical Christianity supporting this interpretation? What scholars brought this forward?


God bless,

william

Kathy,

I have read probably 80% of what you have provided so far. And I have to say that most of it is quite repetitive and that is what precipitated my "boredom". I can understand that Christians should be somewhat informed about what is going on with the different cults, sects, and heretical teachings that are present. But being one who doesn't accept the "Futurist" interpretation of Revelation nor the teachings of Premillennialism, your reference to the book of Revelation is irrelevant as I simply don't find it referring to any of this stuff.

As to your lack of biblical references, it may be you threw a few in for good measure, but what my complaint was concerned the answering of William's question which asked for biblical "proof", i.e., exegesis of relevant passages which reveal this "Noahide Laws" concern. If you would/could do that, then I think we would have much more to discuss.

In His Grace,

William,

What I have documented here are Agendas that are in the works and what will be occurring. Whether or not I've answered your questions fully... The US will be enforcing the Noahide Laws, Christians are considered idolators, and they will be beheaded, by Talmudic decree. There will be a One World State of Judaism.

You can pursue if you wish, saying that you can't see this in the Bible... and I would ask that you tell it to the President. I'm not sure if he is a Bible scholar or not.

-Kathy

Well, I guess it will either be the Jews, or the Muslims, or that "black pope" who will cut off our heads. I just wonder here, what do you think will happen if christians are "informed" of all this conspiracy? Do you think it would change God's plan? Do you think somehow we could change it?

I know I sound short here, and I really don't' want you to feel unwelcome, I'm just saying that whatever will happen will happen. We will be Christians in good or bad times. The church really does grow though in bad times/persecution no?

Whether it's the illuminati, the masons, the pope along with his brigade of killer jesuit preists, the muslims or the Jews.. who cares. I'm not going to live out the rest of my life here on earth paranoid. Nothing is slipping by God. I would rather be informed of God's word, not looking under every rock for the next conspiracy.

Michele

AMEN!

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/thewave.gif" alt="" />

Kathy,
After looking over much of what you posted (I concur with Big P. that it is a tad boring), I am still convinced that Islam is a much graver threat to Christianity than some weird cult based around seven supposed Noahidic laws. How many of these Noahide folks have cut the heads off innocent people or bombed mothers and their children at a pizza place, or have threatened to extinguish all Christianity from the face of the planet by violent force?

Fred

GREAT reply, Michelle. Praise the Lord! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/ClapHands.gif" alt="" />

But you are missing their point, those who DON'T have a place in the World to Come do not go to Hell, because they do not teach a Hell. In other words you either are in the World to Come or you are not. Christians teach you go to Heaven or Hell. Thus there is a significant difference.

As to your comment whether or not this is a Christian site, of course it is. I thought it fair to represent Jewish thought in an accurate format. That's all <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

OK, is this why Lubavitchers are NOT involved in Politics? I provided this info to a Lubavitcher friend of mine (a Rabbi) and he is deeply concerned.

Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg has been formally disciplined for his ridiculous comments...and do not forget they were directed toward Arabs. This is like saying Jerry Falwell is representative of all Christians.

I think the President has much more to be concerned about than the 7 Noahide Laws. I think in general the 7 Noahide Laws are a fair representation of morality. I doubt you will hear much more about this....ever.
Like all other prophecies, if you want to "find" fulfillment in something, you can.

Since we live in a generally Secular country, does it matter what are the "moral values" of our country?

TO those who are not aware, dialectics simplisticly deals with a thesis, antithesis, and then a synthesis. The synthesis need not be "common ground", but it may be.

When did Congress pass a law to ENFORCE the Seven Laws of Noah? They haven't, and they will never. Why will they never? Because Congress is become MORE SECULAR, not MORE RELIGIOUS.


That's right, and I stand by my statement, having personally corresponded with actual Orthodox Jews on the issue previously. The sage Maimonides (Rambam), for example, taught that both Christianity and Islam are preparing the way for the reign of the Messiah. That said, it does not mean there is unity within Judaism on the topic. Anyone who takes a look at the Talmud will find a variety of different opinions on the laws discussed therein.

And furthermore, the Noahide movement is so SMALL it exerts little influence outside of Judaism, and as I said before, most Gentiles don't stop at the Noahide laws but become full Jews, since it's more meritorious and brings one closer to God to become a Jew. The U.S. government has simply recognized the Noahide movement as a religion, the expression of which is thus protected by constitutional law.

You are simply falling prey to conspiracy theory propoganda.

These all go back to the same Carol Valentine gal. Is she the source of this silliness?

Dear Kathy: Just as a reference, no need to respond. The Talmud cannot be understood by studying quotes from websites. Rabbis study this corpus of work for many, many years. You must understand the difference between Gemara and Mishna. How midrash, sod, remez and p’shat interpretation work. You can’t just grab an anti Christian statement out of the flow of a talmudic discussion and arrive at a conclusion. Most likely the conclusion you arrive at will be wrong. You must examine the entire argument to understand the points and why any one statement is being made. I’m not suggesting anyone hold to the authority or even all the teaching of the talmudic sages but at least as intelligent individuals lets speak accurately about the subject matter. The Talmud is a vast compilation of the Oral Law with rabbinical elucidations, elaborations, and commentaries, in contradistinction to the Scriptures or Written Laws. The Talmud is the accepted authority for Orthodox Jews not all Jews. The Noahide movement is a moral movement that for the most part is misrepresented on those sites that were listed. I wish you the best. This is not meant to offend anyone. Just to point out a misunderstanding of Talmud. Thanks Bug