I thought that the GOOD NEWS for every one would be an arminian position and that the GOOD NEWS would only GOOD NEWS to the elect. So far it has not been GOOD NEWS to some members of my family. Still learning, thanks. Bill
The Gospel IS "Good News" regardless of who hears it. It is inherently good, in that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world to save sinners. The hearer may not consider it to be "Good News", but this is only because of the inherent hatred of God and enmity that exists within. For example, one may give sound advice. But if the recipient hates the one who gives that advice, it will be summarily rejected because of that hatred. However, the good advice is still inherently "good". What Paul was speaking about and what Steve quoted is the "savour" of the one who brings the Gospel as well as the Gospel itself:
2 Corinthians 2:14-16 (ASV) "But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place. For we are a sweet savor of Christ unto God, in them that are saved, and in them that perish; to the one a savor from death unto death; to the other a savor from life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
There is nothing in the Gospel itself which could be considered "bad news". The truth is that the Gospel is the most incredibly good news to ever come to the hearing of mankind.
If I may add, which I probably should have included in my previous reply,
1 John 1:5 (KJV) "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."
Genesis 18:25 (ASV) "That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked, that so the righteous should be as the wicked; that be far from thee: shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
Job 8:3 (KJV) "Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert justice?"
Job 37:23 (KJV) "[Touching] the Almighty, we cannot find him out: [he is] excellent in power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: he will not afflict."
Psalms 89:14 (KJV) "Justice and judgment [are] the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face."
The God of heaven never does anything "bad" to anyone, i.e., that everything the Lord does and says is righteous. Any affliction which anyone experiences is due to the Fall and they being partakers of it. The man born blind, who by God's providence, suffered with that affliction not due to any personal or particular sin, could not find fault with God. For even then, it was for God's ultimate glory and that man's "good" that this was decreed. Even the damnation of the wicked is an expression of God's goodness (this may be something you have never considered?) and of His inexorable holiness. Once an individual begins to comprehend the goodness of God, even while the world is crashing down around and upon him, he will lift up his voice and declare with the patriarch Job:
Job 13:15 (KJV) "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him."
There is nothing in the Gospel itself which could be considered "bad news". <br><br>Very true! However, to the reprobate, I do not see how the Gospel can be good news. In some ways, it is indifferent news to the reprobate (a third option to good news and to bad news), because Christ did not die for them, therefore they are not internally called by the Gospel. Or am I just playing semantics? If so, I apologize!!!!!!<br><br>Steve C
[color:red]My prayer is: Father I pray that thou would give me an understanding not that I could consume it upon my lusts but that I could know thee better. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.</font color=red><br><br>The God of heaven never does anything "bad" to anyone, i.e., that everything the Lord does and says is righteous. [color:blue](UNDERSTOOD)</font color=blue> Any affliction which anyone experiences is due to the fall and they being partakers of it. The man born blind, who by God's providence, suffered with that affliction not due to any personal or particular sin, could not find fault with God. [color:blue](UNDERSTOOD)</font color=blue>For even then, it was for God's ultimate glory and that man's "good" that this was decreed. [color:blue](HOW IS IT GOODNESS AND NOT HIS PROVIDENCE?)</font color=blue> Even the damnation of the wicked is an expression of God's goodness (this may be something you have never considered?) and of His inexorable holiness. [color:blue](TELL ME MORE HOW IS THIS GOODNESS? I UNDERSTAND GOD RECIEVES THE GLORY)</font color=blue> Once an individual begins to comprehend the goodness [color:blue](PROVIDENCE?)</font color=blue> of God, even while the world is crashing down around and upon him, he will lift up his voice and declare with the patriarch Job: <br><br>Job 13:15 "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him."<br><br>[color:blue]As of late (subject to change) I have believed that providence is neither good or bad until……<br><br>Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:<br> 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:</font color=blue><br>In Peace Yankee
In reply to:[color:"blue"]Or am I just playing semantics? If so, I apologize!!!!!!
Steve,
No, you aren't playing semantics! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh[/img] It appears to me that you are simply stating the end of what will be in store for the reprobate eschatologically. But I am speaking of the "here and now". The Gospel is inherently "Good News" to ALL who hear it. That is, sinners have a Saviour; a Redeemer Who has reconciled God to sinners through His substitutionary atonement, having become sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. The fact that sinners, unless given a new nature, will reject the Gospel has no relevancy to its message; i.e., God saves sinners. Their rejection of the Gospel has no bearing upon the fact that they are given a way to be united to God in Christ Jesus, by grace through faith in Him.
2 Corinthians 5:18-21 (ASV) "But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and gave unto us the ministry of reconciliation; to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation. We are ambassadors therefore on behalf of Christ, as though God were entreating by us: we beseech [you] on behalf of Christ, be ye reconciled to God. Him who knew no sin he made [to be] sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him."
The issue of who is elect and who is reprobate is irrelevant during this gospel period. What matters is that ALL are summoned to be reconciled, to have their sins remitted and be adopted as sons of the Living God through Christ Jesus the Lord. The application of God's secret predestination is not our concern. We are, however, to be faithful in preaching the Gospel to every creature and to make disciples of the nations.
So, I am seeing this as a matter or perspective, which are not in opposition to each other, but two sides of the same coin, as it were. Those who initially show opposition to the Gospel may indeed be elect. Through the divine providence of God, it may be that all we are given to do is to plant a few seeds, here and there. Another may come along, perhaps even years later and pour out some water on that same soul. And eventually, the Spirit comes and gives the increase. Even Paul had to be reminded that salvation is of the Lord and not of his preaching.
Acts 18:5-6 (ASV) "But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul was constrained by the word, testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. And when they opposed themselves and blasphemed, he shook out his raiment and said unto them, Your blood [be] upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles." . . . (vv. 9-11) "And the Lord said unto Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak and hold not thy peace: for I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to harm thee: for I have much people in this city. And he dwelt [there] a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them."
It is good that every man hear that there is salvation in the Lord Christ. It is good news that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them;". (1Cor 5:19) It is good news to speak of the Lord Christ, "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God." (Rom 3:25) To reject this divine message is to add even more condemnation to oneself which already exists, even as all men are by nature, children of wrath and under the just condemnation of God.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]As of late (subject to change) I have believed that providence is neither good or bad until……
I think all your questions can be answered from this one. It is impossible that we can alienate an act of God from His attributes or from the ultimate end for which He has purposed all things, to wit, His ultimate glory. Thus, everything that God has decreed and then providentially brought to pass is inherently good, for God IS good. We should flee from this world's philosophy of self-absorption where they are the final arbiter of what is "good for them." (cf. Dr. Phil and pop psychology) The world and Satan would have us believe that unless we ourselves see something as beneficial to us, then it cannot be "good". Hear the lie of the Evil One as he tempts Eve:
Genesis 3:1 (ASV) "Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which Jehovah God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of any tree of the garden?"
If I may take the liberty here to paraphrase this vicious lie, "God doesn't truly love you! No, no... for if He did, you would have been allowed to eat the fruit of every tree in the garden. He wants to deny you something which is "good" and thus He isn't interested in what is best for you." Now Eve, having spent many hours watching Opra Winfrey and Dr. Phil, knew that what this serpent was saying had a ring of "truth" to it and thus:
Genesis 3:6 (ASV) "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat; and she gave also unto her husband with her, and he did eat."
God's greater purpose was rejected and "self" dominated their action of disobedience.
One may ask if God isn't a rank egotist since everything is for His own glory; even at the "expense" of the eternal destiny of men. I answer, but WHO is more worthy of glory than God? Could there be ANYTHING that could fully bring the glory deserved to the Creator? I believe there is but one thing; the man Christ Jesus, Who being God, humbled Himself, taking upon Himself human flesh and suffered that which was ours so that we might be reconciled to God in Him. For He is the essence of the glory of God. Mankind was given the opportunity to show his proper place as God's ultimate creature. But he chose to revolt against God and become his own "god." Thus the entire human race was plunged into ruin as well and the entire world. ANYTHING other than immediate eternal torment which men experience in this world is testimony to the goodness of God. And this goodness is meant to lead men to repentance. Yet it too is twisted around to be something "bad", because it doesn't meet their standard of "goodness", i.e., it doesn't benefit them according to their own contrived standard of "goodness".
Any "moral goodness" shown my man is nothing less than the common grace; restraining power, of God. Thus no man can boast of any goodness in and of himself. (cf. Gen 20:1-6) Is this not a testimony to God's providence and goodness? The damnation of sinners also is a testimony to the goodness of God, for it shows forth His perfect justice and vindication of those saved through Christ's vicarious substitutionary atonement.
Okay.... enough for now! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img] Does that help clear up a few things, just a wee bit?
I believe there is but one thing; [color:blue]the man Christ Jesus</font color=blue>, Who being God, humbled Himself, taking upon Himself human flesh and suffered that which was ours so that we might be reconciled to God in Him. For [color:blue]He is the essence of the glory of God.</font color=blue><br><br>Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for [color:blue]the glory of God</font color=blue> did lighten it, [color:blue]and the Lamb is the light thereof.</font color=blue><br><br>[color:blue]AMEN and AMEN</font color=blue><br>
Steve,<br><br>I would suggest that the gospel message is objectively good. Jesus died for the elect and secured their salvation according to God's eternal purpose in Christ. This is indeed good news. We might look at it this way. "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." Man was condemned already, prior to Genesis 3:15, the first issuance of the redemptive promise (i.e., the gospel). The bad news is that mankind rejected the only way of life in the garden. Added to this, without electing grace resulting in the efficacious work of the Spirit man will always reject the only remedy for his sinful plight. The "bad news", therefore, is the objective biblical truth that some reject the way of life because they love darkness. The condition of man, which results in man's willful rejection of the good news, precedes the discharge of the gospel. Accordingly, the "bad news" of man's sin-condition cannot be attributed to the good news of the gospel simply because this bad report concerning man's condition precedes very issuance of the good news. In sum, the "bad news" of man's condition, which results in his willful rejection of the gospel, does not make the good news somehow bad; it simply underscores the pre-existing bad news concerning the plight of man.<br><br>Having said that, YES, it would be better to have never heard the gospel than to have rejected it. Accordingly, the gospel message when heard and rejected results in increasingly bad news for the reprobate. Notwithstanding, the good news does not somehow become bad news, though it does result in increasingly more bad news for the reprobate. There is a double jeopardy so to speak, which may have been the point of the original query. <br><br>In His Grace,<br><br>Ron<br>
Ron,<br><br>Succinctly put! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img] I would also like to expand just a bit on something you said that unfortunately has been distorted by many today:<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Having said that, YES, it would be better to have never heard the gospel than to have rejected it.</font><hr></blockquote><p>According to many, sinners are condemned to hell BECAUSE they reject the Gospel. What they either state explicitly or implicitly is that mankind is "neutral or innocent" until they hear and reject the Gospel overture. The truth of the matter, which you made clear is that men are by NATURE condemned already, they being the children of the first Adam and thus share both his depravity and GUILT. Thus if someone never heard the Gospel, they would still and most assuredly suffer damnation because of who they ARE, apart from anything they have done (everything being sinful anyway). But having heard the Gospel and then rejecting it they are adding more "fuel to the fire" which is already theirs.<br><br>In His Grace,
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