Donations for the month of September


We have received a total of $0 in donations towards our goal of $175.


Don't want to use PayPal? Go HERE


Search

Member Spotlight
Tom
Tom
Kelowna, British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 3,526
Joined: April 2001
Show All Member Profiles 
Forum Statistics
Forums30
Topics6,685
Posts51,431
Members928
Most Online373
Mar 5th, 2017
Top Posters(All Time)
Pilgrim 13,513
Tom 3,525
chestnutmare 2,920
J_Edwards 2,615
Wes 1,856
John_C 1,769
RJ_ 1,582
MarieP 1,578
gotribe 1,060
Top Posters(30 Days)
Tom 16
Pilgrim 16
Meta4 2
Johan 2
John_C 1
Recent Posts
Guilt or Innocence Does it Matter?
by Tom. Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:55 PM
Big Thank You!
by Tom. Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:19 PM
Same Sex Atraction
by Pilgrim. Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:33 AM
What will it like to live in Heaven
by Pilgrim. Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:32 PM
Bill 89 taking children from Christian homes
by Tom. Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:10 PM
Pay Taxes
by Tom. Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:54 PM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Re: Homosexuality #22434
Sun Feb 20, 2005 5:13 PM
Sun Feb 20, 2005 5:13 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
USA
J_Edwards Offline
Needs to get a Life
J_Edwards  Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
USA
Quote
Is the point that we should care what "the world" (and those who are in "the world") think(s)?

Uhmm, yea that is one point (Matt 5:14-16). Though you may not be “of the world” you still have to deal with the world and are suppose to be a witness to it. In addition, it would be extremely foolish if you go into a prison to tell the other prisoners you are a “recovering homosexual” for you are probably going to get raped, or if on a job application you put that you are a “recovering liar, or thief” you are not going to get hired. Moreover, this denies who you already are “in Christ.”

Quote
. . . it seems like you are confusing "saving grace" or "regeneration" with "sanctification." I am sure that you know that they are distinctly different manifestations of God's extremely gracious interactions with His lowly creatures.

In union with Christ there is definitive sanctification and progressive sanctification. If you call a Christian a mere “recovering …” then you are in fact denying his definitive sanctification and thus his salvation and union with Christ. You are in fact making salvation progressive and ignoring its definitive aspect for if one is merely recovering (the process of restoration from sickness or the like; or process of overcoming, rescuing, or delivering [Webster]) then he has not actually arrived at the point of absolute deliverance. However, if one is “saved” then he is a Christian NOW and NOT a mere “recovering ….”.

It is important for a person to recognize who they are “in Christ” and to assume one is anything less is not only sin, but destructive to one’s whole Christian walk. While not perfect (and there is a struggle with sin) it is important to realize what one has already become. We are Reformed and Always Reforming, not Reforming, so we will become Reformed. We are Christians in armour (Eph 6) who are fighting against the enemy not recovering (1 Tim 6:12; 2 Tim 4:7). We must be renewed in the spirit of our minds (Rom 12:1-2) and realize what and who we are:

Quote
1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Please forgive me if I mis-interpreted what you indeed posted ...


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: Homosexuality [Re: Tom] #22435
Sun Feb 20, 2005 5:26 PM
Sun Feb 20, 2005 5:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
USA
J_Edwards Offline
Needs to get a Life
J_Edwards  Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
USA
Quote
I don't know if they are calling themselves "recovering".

Recovering

Quote
Lets take myself, one of my weaknesses (and I know many others that say the same thing), is the fact that if I am at a beach or a pool, I have to stop myself from looking at women in their bathing suits, because if I do I begin to have lust.

So are you a Christian or recovering pervert? Which are you going to (or should) put on your application for deacon?

Quote
Now, does this fact mean I shouldn't call myself a "Christian"?

Tom, I am NOT denying that a Christian struggling with sin is to be called a Christian—my point is that HE SHOULD be called a Christian. My problem is with calling him a “recovering ….,” which is no where in Scripture!

Maybe this other post will assist you.

Re: Homosexuality [Re: J_Edwards] #22436
Sun Feb 20, 2005 6:42 PM
Sun Feb 20, 2005 6:42 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,526
Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Tom Offline OP
Needs to get a Life
Tom  Offline OP
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,526
Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Joe

I see what you are getting at and agree.
Though what I was talking about (perhaps badly) was not saying that I was "a recovering pervert". I was saying basically what you are saying (at least in my mind).
Only I think, I now see it matters that one first sees oneself as first a Christian and then someone who is being sanctified.
It might be semantics in my mind, but if I want something communicated properly, I should learn how to make sure I am understood.

I will also say that although I am grateful for the work of organizations like AA. I never the less, have seen many people who call themselves Christians, become dependant more on AA than God Himself.
I have a friend who calls himself a recovered alcoholic, who needed AA for a time. But, now sees himself as totally recovered, unlike many others who have been in AA for years, but consider themselves as "recovering", even though they have not had a drink in years.

Tom

Re: Homosexuality [Re: Pilgrim] #22437
Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:56 PM
Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:56 PM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A


Hi, Pilgrim. Happy Lord’s Day to you (and everyone else on the board)!

You wrote to me:
Quote
Sorry, but I can't seem to grasp what you are disagreeing with in regard to Joe's reply to Tom? Could you be so kind as to state your objection(s) in a different way?


Good question. I had two different “struggles from Joe’s post:

(1) Joe seems to be saying in his post that I should care what humanity thinks about my sins (or anyone else’s sins).

Quote
Joe wrote:
For your next job interview tell them you are a “recovering liar” or go into prison and say you are a "recovering homosexual...," well you get the point.


IF that’s what Joe is saying, I don’t agree with that.

My concern should correspond with what God cares about. My concern should be to glorify God. I’m not going to worry about speaking the truth – no matter how unpalatable it is OR how much harm may come to me as a result of speaking the truth.

IF that’s what Joe is saying . . . . . .

(2) Joe seems to be confusing "saving grace" or "regeneration" with "sanctification” when he writes . . . .

Quote
While it may be a fact that a Christian will have struggles with certain sins it is NOT correct to call them by the term “recovering …. ,” as to do so denies the reality of their conversion and what they were converted from (see Romans 1). May not this also imply that salvation is a continuing process and not a immediate act of the Holy Spirit.


IF I understand Joe correctly, here, he seems to be saying that IF I call myself a “recovering [whatever]”, I am questioning my salvation.

I simply don’t see that. If I call myself a “recovering [whatever]” I am merely stating that I have a predilection toward that particular sin and that the Lord is in the process of sanctifying me of it.

I pray that is clearer.

Trust me, I do NOT like the term “recovering [whatever]” as much as others. Nor do I like the term “non-practicing [whatever].”

I was merely trying to answer Tom’s question, “What do you think of this line of thinking?” and I am concerned that folks are making “a mountain out of a molehill” because the topic is “homosexuality” – which was the point of my other post:

Quote
So . . . it ain't just about the sex. And we hetrosexuals best not think that we, like the Pharisee in Luke 18, are better than the homosexuals just because God hasn't given us up to those behaviors. Instead, we should be down on our knees thanking the God of Heaven and Earth that He hasn't given us up to ANY kinds of sinful behaviors. Amen?


With a deep appreciation for the grace provided by God through Christ’s death on the cross,
Ted

Re: Homosexuality #22438
Sun Feb 20, 2005 8:50 PM
Sun Feb 20, 2005 8:50 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 351
The Great White North, Eh!
Henry Offline
Enthusiast
Henry  Offline
Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 351
The Great White North, Eh!
Can one who is united with Christ and seated with him in the heveanly realms, recipient of every spiritual blessing, child and very heir to the King of the Universe, identify himself by the sin he has died to in Christ? May it never be. We will struggle with this body of death until we die, but when we allow ourselves to be known and identified by these struggles rather then by our Savior, we are no longer stuggling but have admitted defeat. May we never dishonour our Lord in this way.


(Latin phrase goes here.)
Re: Homosexuality #22439
Sun Feb 20, 2005 11:26 PM
Sun Feb 20, 2005 11:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,513
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,513
NH, USA
Quote
Ted said:
(2) Joe seems to be confusing "saving grace" or "regeneration" with "sanctification” when he writes . . . .

IF I understand Joe correctly, here, he seems to be saying that IF I call myself a “recovering [whatever]”, I am questioning my salvation.

I simply don’t see that. If I call myself a “recovering [whatever]” I am merely stating that I have a predilection toward that particular sin and that the Lord is in the process of sanctifying me of it.

Thanks Ted,

Yes, I am able, I think, to grasp your objections.

No, in regard to your second objection above, let me assure you that Joe isn't confusing "saving grace" or "regeneration" with "sanctification". Although it is theoretically possible, it is highly unlikely that he would make such a blatant and serious error. Personally, I agree 100% with his view that for a professing Christian to use such phraseology as, "I am a recovering xxxx" or "I am a non-practicing xxxx" is in actuality to deny one's complete salvation in Christ. The text in 1Cor 6:11 is most instructive as the verb to be, "were" (Grk: nte) (2nd per pl imperfect) literally translated says, you were ─ once but no longer. There is a finality emphasized in what Paul is saying, i.e., there were some among them at Corinth who were once fornicators, thieves, adulterers, effeminate, homosexuals, etc. that were wholly saved, i.e., "washed", "sanctified", and "justified", objectively by the atoning sacrifice of Christ AND practically "in the Spirit of our God". These individuals who were involved in these gross sins had been delivered from them when they believed upon Christ. They were not "recovering" from them nor does Paul say they were "non-practitioners" of those sins. And because they had been saved from their sins (cf. Matt 3:21), they were to flee any temptation to return to them. (cf. Rom 6)

In the epistle to the Ephesians, Paul explains what such a deliverance entails, i.e., true Spirit-wrought repentance, where he uses the example of the one who is a thief.


Ephesians 4:28 (KJV) "Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with [his] hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth."



It should be plain that Paul utterly rejects any notion that one can be a "non-practicing" thief. Such an individual is nothing more than a dormant thief; i.e., there has been no actual change; regeneration, justification nor sanctification! But rather one is no longer a thief, period, when the individual does that which is in stark contrast to his former actions; previously: robbed others, transformed: gives to others.

Does this mean that the thief, adulterer, homosexual, etc., never is tempted to do that which he was delivered? No! Does this mean that the person never will commit any of these sins again? No! But what it does mean is that along with the new disposition (regeneration), the realization of the offensive of those sins (conviction), the gratitude from being delivered (justification), the power to overcome all manner of temptation to fall into those acts again (sanctification), the believer can endure temptation and keep from giving in. (1Cor 10:13)

In His Grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Homosexuality [Re: Pilgrim] #22440
Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:59 AM
Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:59 AM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A


GREAT points, Pilgrim. Thank you VERY much! In particular, thank you for pointing me to scripture. You have changed my thinking on this topic. I (NOW) agree with you and Joe that this sort of language ("recovering [whatever]" and "non-practicing [whatever]") is, indeed, un-Biblical.

Thank you SO much for helping me see that clearly. What a fool I've been. Please forgive me.

Thankful to God for your patience and scriptural knowledge,
Ted

Re: Homosexuality [Re: Pilgrim] #22441
Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:02 AM
Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:02 AM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A


Quote
Pilgrim said:
flunky1,

I'll ask you to forgive my lack of understanding of what you wrote, as I did also to Ted and his reply above to Joe. But I don't really quite grasp your point? Are you saying that someone who has been genuinely converted will not have homosexual tendencies? And let's expand upon this question to include ALL sins, i.e., the tendency to them. So then, the question would then be, Are you suggesting that one who is truly regenerate and has been genuinely converted to Christ will not have such tendencies and/or temptation of any sin? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" />


Pilgrim,

I do not dispute that the converted are tempted to sin, and grievously at that. But I believe the sin of homosexuality is a peculiarity among sins, insofar as it is unnatural for a man to be sexually attracted to another man, even though homosexuals would say their urges feel natural. I think it is accurate to say that the vast majority of humanity does not have homosexual tendencies, latent or active, but if a homosexual is converted, I cannot say if such vile affections remain lurking within or not. My doubt arises because of the specific connection between homosexuality and a perversion of the homosexual's view of God in Romans 1. It is a punishment God gives certain people over to; if they are forgiven, does the need remain for God to keep alive in them an affliction so tailored to show forth a perverse view of God and nature? I am not sure what the answer to this is.

Re: Homosexuality #22442
Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:09 AM
Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:09 AM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A


Sin is not natural. Therefore, claiming that homosexuality is peculiar due to its unnaturalness seems odd. All sin is unnatural and against God's revealed will.

We are perfected in Christ; already but not yet. Therefore, even the elect are not perfect.


God bless,

william

Re: Homosexuality #22443
Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:56 AM
Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:56 AM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A


I beg to differ. Sin is VERY natural. The natural man wants only sin. Our natural state is dead in trespasses and sins. Surely a believer is one who has an incipient new nature created in him.

I think we might be experiencing a semantic conflict here, averagefellar!

Re: Homosexuality #22444
Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:21 PM
Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:21 PM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A


Yes. I agree in as far as nature refers to mans preferences. My intended use was to mean the original state of man. Semantical differences aside, I think we probably are fairly close.


God bless,

william

Re: Homosexuality #22445
Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:48 PM
Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:48 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Virginia
CovenantInBlood Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian
CovenantInBlood  Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Virginia
Jonathan,

Quote
My doubt arises because of the specific connection between homosexuality and a perversion of the homosexual's view of God in Romans 1. It is a punishment God gives certain people over to


In that case, shouldn't there be many more homosexuals than there are? They are given over because they "worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator" (v. 25). That's not a particularly uncommon perversion of the view of God! What I think Paul is showing in Romans 1 is an entire society that has turned away from God and so is afflicted with homosexuality. This might explain why we seem to be having more and more trouble with homosexuals in our own day, as Western society increasingly rejects God and elevates man.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Re: Homosexuality [Re: CovenantInBlood] #22446
Mon Feb 21, 2005 2:12 PM
Mon Feb 21, 2005 2:12 PM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A


Maybe there are more than we think there are!

Nevertheless, there are many unbelievers who have not, in their minds, perverted how God truly is. Like a friend of mine, who used to be superstitiously afraid to destroy religious tracts, they believe and tremble, yet they do not own Christ as Saviour.

Nevertheless, CIB, you make an interesting point... It's another difficult subject, and one I am not going to be "dogmatic" about.

Re: Homosexuality #22447
Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:53 PM
Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:53 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Virginia
CovenantInBlood Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian
CovenantInBlood  Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Virginia
Quote
flunky1 said:
Maybe there are more than we think there are!

Nevertheless, there are many unbelievers who have not, in their minds, perverted how God truly is. Like a friend of mine, who used to be superstitiously afraid to destroy religious tracts, they believe and tremble, yet they do not own Christ as Saviour.

Nevertheless, CIB, you make an interesting point... It's another difficult subject, and one I am not going to be "dogmatic" about.


The reason I'm asking is because I know Christian brothers who are still tempted with attraction to other men. According to your view of the nature of homosexual sin it would seem that I would have to consider them as yet unregenerate and holding to a particularly perverse notion of God. I know we cannot rely on experience, but rather we must trust the Word of God. Yet, I'm not sure there is warrant for your view in Scripture.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Re: Homosexuality [Re: CovenantInBlood] #22448
Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:00 AM
Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:00 AM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A


As you say, we cannot rely on experience, but rather, we must trust the Word of God. I think we must ask, what do homosexual desires say about a man's soul? The highest sense of conjugal relationship is the spiritual one between Christ and His Church; but where the Object of worship has been wilfully and knowingly corupted in its nature (in the mind of the perverse), it seems God has responded, at least in some cases, by mirroring this higher corruption in a perverted and wholly unnatural sexuality. "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature" - this is not my pet theory; this is the Word of God's verdict. There is a definite link between perverted sexuality and perverted views of God among people who knew what God is really like. Can a man really be born again and still possess this sentence from God, this desire "against nature", this mark of those who have who "held the truth in unrighteousness"? I don't know! But I do doubt it.

Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 26 guests, and 118 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
reformedbygrace, ReformedDisciple, Micki Bowman, Nigel J, wischnotes
928 Registered Users
Shout Box
September
S M T W T F S
1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25 26 27 28 29
30
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Popular Topics(Views)
812,047 Gospel truth
Page Time: 0.054s Queries: 16 (0.004s) Memory: 2.9830 MB (Peak: 3.2891 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2018-09-25 10:40:40 UTC