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Re: Salvation By Doctrine [Re: Pilgrim] #24245
Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:20 PM
Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:20 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,771
Mississippi Gulf Coast
John_C Offline

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I feel like jumping in, sorry.

It appears to me that the correct understanding of Grace is vital. Some has never had a good hold on Grace (some better than others). What is even more troubling are those who originally had the a good grasp on Grace, but now turn back toward legalisms and hyper-covenantalism. I think with the former and the latter we should attempt to give them the benefit; however with some the benefit may be problematic at best.

Now, the kicker. The Bible speaks often of Christians having love for one another. Some have love of the doctrine, but little love for Christians. I guess in reality their love for doctrine is lacking if they deny the doctrine of Christian love. They get around the love issue by denying the salvation of others who disagree with them. How do we apply love to this question?

Last edited by John_C; Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:22 PM.

John Chaney

"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
Re: Salvation By Doctrine [Re: John_C] #24246
Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:29 PM
Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:29 PM
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NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

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Pilgrim  Offline

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Quote
John_C said:
Now, the kicker. The Bible speaks often of Christians having love for one another. Some have love of the doctrine, but little love for Christians. I guess in reality their love for doctrine is lacking if they deny the doctrine of Christian love. They get around the love issue by denying the salvation of others who disagree with them. How do we apply love to this question?

John,

I think what needs to be mutually understood is the definition of "love"; i.e., "love one another". Is it really a lack of love for someone to question the salvation of another who professes to follow Christ but whose doctrine and/or life is contrary to biblical teaching? Where would you put church discipline in the mix?

In His Grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

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Re: Salvation By Doctrine [Re: Pilgrim] #24247
Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:47 PM
Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:47 PM
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Mississippi Gulf Coast
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Quote
I think what needs to be mutually understood is the definition of "love"; i.e., "love one another". Is it really a lack of love for someone to question the salvation of another who professes to follow Christ but whose doctrine and/or life is contrary to biblical teaching? Where would you put church discipline in the mix?


Pilgrim,

I'm using love in a way that you are not assuming. I'm talking about those hard to get-along with people who it is almost impossible to make them happy. They are cantankerous, and belittle anyone who disagrees with them. Mostly over non-essential issues. They just think they alone with a few of their buddies are puryifying the church. Yet all they accomplish is discord. That is my question regarding lack of love issue.

I agree questioning someone's salvation does not show lack of love and accepting nonbiblical propositions is not loving.

The church should definitely apply more discipline in the area of non conformity to biblical teachings. Many good churches practice this discipline through sound, biblical teaching from the pulpit and all other teaching venues within the church.

Last edited by John_C; Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:49 PM.

John Chaney

"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
Re: Salvation By Doctrine [Re: John_C] #24248
Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:49 PM
Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:49 PM
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NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

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Quote
John_C said:
I'm talking about those hard to get-along with people who it is almost impossible to make them happy. They are cantankerous, and belittle anyone who disagrees with them. Mostly over non-essential issues. They just think they alone with a few of their buddies are puryifying the church. Yet all they accomplish is discord. That is my question regarding lack of love issue.

GOTCHA!
I think most of us have come across the type of people you described above. rolleyes2


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simul iustus et peccator

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Re: Salvation By Doctrine [Re: gotribe] #24249
Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:30 AM
Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:30 AM
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Virginia
CovenantInBlood Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian
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Virginia
Quote
gotribe said:
Draw the line? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" />


Yes, draw the line. For example, in your signature, you've drawn the line much too short. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" />


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Re: Salvation By Doctrine [Re: John_C] #24250
Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:05 AM
Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:05 AM
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doulos Offline
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John_C said:
The church should definitely apply more discipline in the area of non conformity to biblical teachings. Many good churches practice this discipline through sound, biblical teaching from the pulpit and all other teaching venues within the church.


True but there are also a great number of churches embracing what can only be called heresy these days. How do you discipline an entire denomination that has obviously strayed off the narrow? If you've got an entire body of believers who are believing something thats diametrically opposed to good doctrine what do you do? More to the point, what do you do with their members who flee from that teaching to your congregation?


Josh
"...the word of God is not bound."--2 Timothy 2:9
Re: Salvation By Doctrine [Re: doulos] #24251
Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:54 AM
Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:54 AM
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Mississippi Gulf Coast
John_C Offline

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doulos said:
True but there are also a great number of churches embracing what can only be called heresy these days. How do you discipline an entire denomination that has obviously strayed off the narrow? If you've got an entire body of believers who are believing something thats diametrically opposed to good doctrine what do you do? More to the point, what do you do with their members who flee from that teaching to your congregation?


I assume most of us in this forum are attending solid churches. Of course, I assume there are many churches out there as you described.

I know of no way that an entire denomination can be disciplined. For the individual, they should leave those denominations, even if their particular church is somewhat solid. Although it is unwritten, some denominations believe that others are apostate. Maybe they can formalize their belief. I have heard that only the SBC as a denomination has stopped the tide of a denomination turning liberal. But there are so many factions within the SBC, I don't know if that is entirely true.

What does a solid church within a biblical denomination do when someone from a bad church/denominational setting begin attending the church or desire membership. Just make sure they understand God's grace; but I don't any need of contacting their old church.

Last edited by John_C; Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:57 AM.

John Chaney

"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
Re: Salvation By Doctrine [Re: CovenantInBlood] #24252
Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:17 AM
Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:17 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 351
The Great White North, Eh!
Henry Offline
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The Great White North, Eh!
Quote
CovenantInBlood said:
Quote
gotribe said:
Draw the line? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" />


Yes, draw the line. For example, in your signature, you've drawn the line much too short. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" />


Are you talking about the fact she quoted C.S. Lewis? Or are you being funny and referring to the hyphenated line that only extends part way over the signature line?


(Latin phrase goes here.)
Re: Salvation By Doctrine [Re: John_C] #24253
Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:32 AM
Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:32 AM
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doulos Offline
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John_C said:
I have heard that only the SBC as a denomination has stopped the tide of a denomination turning liberal. But there are so many factions within the SBC, I don't know if that is entirely true.


The jury is still out on this one. There was a bit of a coup and rumors of a denominational split floating around but nothing of substance. My wife and I go to an SBC church because its just about the only game in town--ah, rural America!

So is it just me or is there something wrong with the church in general? Is it poor doctrine, as has been alluded to on this thread or is there something else? I'm not just talking about Southern Baptists, but overall there seems to something hanging over her head that keeps her from doing what she should do (outside of marryin' and buryin').


Josh
"...the word of God is not bound."--2 Timothy 2:9
Re: Salvation By Doctrine [Re: John_C] #24254
Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:46 AM
Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:46 AM
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Kentucky
MarieP Offline
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Quote
I have heard that only the SBC as a denomination has stopped the tide of a denomination turning liberal. But there are so many factions within the SBC, I don't know if that is entirely true.


The SBC is a huge old thing with various factions, yes. But nowadays it isn't the inerrancy of Scripture but the sufficiency of Scripture that is most under attack within the Convention.

The liberals and moderates for the most part have left, but there still are many Arminians and other evan-jelly-cals. I am thankful for those churches that are seeking to return to Reformed theology!

Also, curiously enough, some of the normal SBC churches (read "non-Reformed") I've gone to call themselves conservative, say they do not allow women to be pastors, and yet have women unofficially leading adult Bible studies that are co-ed.


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Re: Salvation By Doctrine [Re: Henry] #24255
Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:16 PM
Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:16 PM
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Virginia
CovenantInBlood Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian
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Virginia
Quote
Henry said:

Are you talking about the fact she quoted C.S. Lewis? Or are you being funny and referring to the hyphenated line that only extends part way over the signature line?


The latter! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bigglasses.gif" alt="" />


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Re: Salvation By Doctrine [Re: doulos] #24256
Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:46 PM
Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:46 PM

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Quote
doulos said:
True but there are also a great number of churches embracing what can only be called heresy these days. How do you discipline an entire denomination that has obviously strayed off the narrow? If you've got an entire body of believers who are believing something thats diametrically opposed to good doctrine what do you do? More to the point, what do you do with their members who flee from that teaching to your congregation?


The problem with a lot of the denominations is when the people started to teach doctrines that went against the confessions of that denomination they did not discipline them. Then this small groups went after the seminaries and now teach what they belive it right.

Re: Doctrinal pride and cold formalism #24257
Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:36 PM
Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:36 PM
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western New Mexico
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packsaddle Offline
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Doctrine and love. one should show christian love for Christ.
How do we do that? by following Jesus doctrines as Jesus taught us. John 14:23

We should be proud of Jesus and his doctines and never compromise them for the sake of unity.

it is not loving ones neighbor to hide from them what Christ doctrines are.
Lutheran's love doctrine.
we Love and are proud of it.
because it from Jesus. his bible is full of his doctrines.
to say we are not proud of doctrine is to say we are not proud of God's word.Which never lie's and alway's has our best interest at it's heart. Our Jesus


Chief of sinner's though I be, Jesus still died for me.
Re: Doctrinal pride and cold formalism [Re: packsaddle] #24258
Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:46 AM
Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:46 AM

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I think you will find that true Calvinists also love doctrine and will never compromise doctrine for the sake of unity. The Highway maintains a large library on the essential Calvinist doctrines which Lutherans should understand.

Re: Doctrinal pride and cold formalism #24259
Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:27 PM
Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:27 PM
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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Tom Offline
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Tom  Offline
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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Unfortunately in some cases this is true.
In fact in some cases this doctrinal pride is even against others that hold to TULIP. For instance, CH Spurgeon once said that John Wesley despite being an Arminian never the less was a Christian. On the internet I have read many Calvinists be aghast at Spurgeon for saying this. Some even went as far as to question Spurgeon's salvation, while others questioned Spurgeon's knowledge of the doctrines of grace.

I would be interested in some examples that you have run into that prompted this thread.

Tom

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