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#24958 - Wed May 11, 2005 11:33 PM Since we're talking about money ****  
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Are Christians mandated to tithe? That is to give a tenth of their goods to the church?


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
#24959 - Thu May 12, 2005 2:58 AM Re: Since we're talking about money [Re: Peter]  
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Jacob's Dream

20Then Jacob made a vow, saying, "If God will be with me and will keep me on this journey that I take, and will give me food to eat and garments to wear,

21and I return to my father's house in safety, then the LORD will be my God.

22"This stone, which I have set up as a pillar, will be God's house, and of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You."

From Genesis 28 (New American Standard Bible)

God's Promise to Abram

17Then after his return from the defeat of Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him, the king of Sodom went out to meet him at the valley of Shaveh (that is, the King's Valley).
18And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High.

19He blessed him and said,
"Blessed be Abram of God Most High,
Possessor of heaven and earth;
20And blessed be God Most High,
Who has delivered your enemies into your hand."
He gave him a tenth of all.

From Genesis 14 (New American Standard Bible)

Melchizedek's Priesthood Like Christ's

1For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham as he was returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,
2to whom also Abraham apportioned a tenth part of all the spoils, was first of all, by the translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, which is king of peace.

3Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.

4Now observe how great this man was to whom Abraham, the patriarch, gave a tenth of the choicest spoils.

5And those indeed of the sons of Levi who receive the priest's office have commandment in the Law to collect a tenth from the people, that is, from their brethren, although these are descended from Abraham.

6But the one whose genealogy is not traced from them collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed the one who had the promises.

7But without any dispute the lesser is blessed by the greater.

8In this case mortal men receive tithes, but in that case one receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives on.

9And, so to speak, through Abraham even Levi, who received tithes, paid tithes,

10for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.

11Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?

12For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.

13For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar.

14For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests.

15And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek,

16who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life.

17For it is attested of Him,
"YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER
ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."

18For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness

19(for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

20And inasmuch as it was not without an oath

21(for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,
"THE LORD HAS SWORN
AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND,
'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'");

22so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

23The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing,

24but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.

25Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

26For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;

27who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

28For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

Hebrews 7 (New American Standard Bible)

God Gives Most

6Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.

7Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

8And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;

9as it is written,
"HE SCATTERED ABROAD, HE GAVE TO THE POOR,
HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS ENDURES FOREVER."

10Now He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness;

11you will be enriched in everything for all liberality, which through us is producing thanksgiving to God.

12For the ministry of this service is not only fully supplying the needs of the saints, but is also overflowing through many thanksgivings to God.

13Because of the proof given by this ministry, they will glorify God for your obedience to your confession of the gospel of Christ and for the liberality of your contribution to them and to all,

14while they also, by prayer on your behalf, yearn for you because of the surpassing grace of God in you.

15Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!

2 Corinthians 9 (New American Standard Bible)



I don't believe that we're ever really commanded by the Apostles to give 10% on a regular basis. It isn't specifically stated like communion and baptism is.

I believe that if a church demands that each member gives 10% that this might err on the side of legalism. It also isn't what the church in my opinion should be doing. I believe it's the churches responsibility for the upbringing, training, teaching and perseverance of the saints. I think if this were being fulfilled then you will have a situation where less fortunate church members would be giving what they could while more fortunate members would be giving more. All the while, as the less fortunate members are growing in Christ, hopefully God will continue to bless their household and they will eventually be able to give more in the future.

I believe it is our duty to give back. I believe that 10% is a good gage at where we should start. But I don't believe that it should be a set amount. Because there are those that are less fortunate and those that are more able to give.

The one thing that I can tell you is this. I get upset when I see people who have very little and are poor giving more to the church then people who have big houses, nice cars and clothing. This in my opinion should be an eye opener for the body and corrected. I also think that the body should consider itself a family. What I don't understand is how wealthy church members can just stand idly by while they see the poorer members struggling. I for one, have done allot for less fortunate people at my church and will continue to do so.

Y.B.I.C,

Dave.


Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Galatians 2:16
#24960 - Thu May 12, 2005 5:41 AM Re: Since we're talking about money [Re: Reformation Monk]  

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I believe that if a church demands that each member gives 10% that this might err on the side of legalism. It also isn't what the church in my opinion should be doing.


Any church that demands a 10% tithe has rejected the gospel of Christ. If we give tithe to retain church membership, we are still under the Law and are hypocrites merely pretending to be Christians. When we are born anew by the Spirit of God, and liberated from the Law, we are under grace and give tithes from a free, cheerful spirit.

#24961 - Thu May 12, 2005 7:56 AM Re: Since we're talking about money [Re: Peter]  

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Boanerges said:
Are Christians mandated to tithe? That is to give a tenth of their goods to the church?


Hi, Boanerges. Happy Thursday to you!

I would respectfully submit that the question you ask doesn't get to the heart of what the Bible teaches. A simple answer would be, "No, we are required to give everything we have, but only after we've given our hearts to God."

Here's an outline of the "giving" section from a class I've been involved with on the larger subject of "stewardship."

Quote
Giving: Giving is blessed.

a) Matthew 23:23
i) The Pharisees gave precisely the correct amount – a tithe of even their mint leaves.
ii) But because they gave with the wrong heart attitude, the Lord rebuked them.

b) 1Corinthians 13:3
i) Giving without a heart of love is no value to the giver.

c) 2Corinthians 9:7
i) Do not give grudgingly or under compulsion but rather give cheerfully.
ii) The proper attitude is the key issue in the area of giving.
iii) The only way to give out of a heart of love is to consciously give each gift to Jesus Christ Himself as an act of worship.

d) Acts 20:23
i) In the Lord’s economic system it is more blessed to give than to receive. Most people believe the opposite.

e) Proverbs 11:24-25
i) There is a material increase – in the Lord’s time and way – to the giver.

f) Matthew 6:20
i) We can lay up treasures in heaven that we will be able to enjoy through out all eternity.

g) Luke 12:34
i) The heart of the giver is drawn to Christ as treasures are given to Him.

h) 1Timothy 6:18-19
i) We can store treasures in heaven and “take hold of that which is life indeed.”

i) Malachi 3:8-10
i) The tithe was required under the law, and it was considered robbing God not to give these required gifts.

j) 2Corinthians 8:1-5
i) There are three (perhaps more) principles from this passage that should influence how much you give:
(1) They first gave themselves to the Lord, asking Him to direct their giving. In the same way we need to submit ourselves to the Lord when determining how much to give.
(2) They were so yielded to the Lord that despite difficult circumstances they begged to give.
(3) They experienced tremendous joy as a result of their sacrificial giving.

k) Numbers 18:8-10,24
i) Godly people have always been required to participate in the maintenance of the ministry.
ii) The Old Testament believer was required to care for the place of worship and the Levites who served in the ministry.

l) Galatians 6:6
i) Those who are taught the Scriptures should financially support their teachers.

m) 1Timothy 5:17-18
i) God’s New Testament instrument in the church, and we are to adequately support those who serve as pastors and teachers.

n) Isaiah 58:6-11
i) When we give to the poor, the Lord will protect us, answer our prayer, and bless us with his joy.

o) Ezekiel 16:49
i) The primary sins of Sodom were pride and not caring for the poor, even though they had an abundance of material goods.

p) Matthew 25:35-45
i) Jesus identifies personally with the poor.
ii) When we give to the poor, we are giving to Christ Himself.
iii) When we do not give to the poor, we are not giving to Christ, and He is left hungry and naked.

q) Galatians 2:9-10
i) The disciples also had a deep concern for the poor.
ii) After Paul’s confirmation to minister to the Gentiles, the only counsel the disciples gave him was not to forget the poor.
iii) Think of the MANY issues they could have discussed, yet they only asked Paul to remember the poor.


I pray that this is helpful to you.

Yours in Christ's service,
Ted

#24962 - Thu May 12, 2005 10:28 AM Re: Since we're talking about money  
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I don't know about the demanding part. I've never been in a church that did that. I've heard of some churches where the preacher would preach until they met the budget--obviously they had some membership issues.

I think you ought to give as much as you can and still have a good attitude about it. Never go into debt to give to the church--I don't think thats biblical at all. I mean God owns everything including dirt, bacteria, etc. Going into debt, to me, means that you think WAY too much about yourself. I have thithed for almost as long as I've had a paycheck to offer one on and the Lord has always been faithful to take care of my needs--I've always had enough and then some--to his glory.


Josh
"...the word of God is not bound."--2 Timothy 2:9
#24963 - Sun May 15, 2005 11:44 AM Re: Since we're talking about money  
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Hi, Boanerges. Happy Thursday to you!

I would respectfully submit that the question you ask doesn't get to the heart of what the Bible teaches. A simple answer would be, "No, we are required to give everything we have, but only after we've given our hearts to God."

Here's an outline of the "giving" section from a class I've been involved with on the larger subject of "stewardship."


Thanks, I think, there Ted however I don't see the answer to the question per se. Let's get some assumptions down right away.

If I say Christians lets assume I'm talking about bible believing individuals that have given their hearts to God.

If I say Tithe lets assume that I am talking about at the minimum 10% of the money/goods that a person has.

If I say mandated I mean required as a rule.

Now let's try this again, are Christians mandated to tithe?


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
#24964 - Mon May 16, 2005 12:04 PM Re: Since we're talking about money [Re: Peter]  

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If I say Christians lets assume I'm talking about bible believing individuals that have given their hearts to God.


Are their hearts something that God would want?

Quote
If I say Tithe lets assume that I am talking about at the minimum 10% of the money/goods that a person has.


Is the minimum 10% money/goods something that God would want?

Quote
If I say mandated I mean required as a rule.


By mandated rule, do you mean a law that condemns the disobedient or a guide for Christians who have been liberated from the law?

Quote
Now let's try this again, are Christians mandated to tithe?


Do mandated tithes please God? Or, are they filthy rags of our own righteousness?

Last edited by speratus; Mon May 16, 2005 12:21 PM.
#24965 - Mon May 16, 2005 1:22 PM Re: Since we're talking about money [Re: Peter]  
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Are we talking about a cash contribution to a church browbeaten out of a congregation to meet an arbitrarily determined budget requirement? Or are we discussing a gift given freely to further the Kingdom of God? Is it cash only? You know 10% of a day is 2.4 hours...and what items would that include? Bible study? Helping little old ladies across the street? How about scrubbing toilets at the chapel?

Yes I think there's a biblical mandate to support the church. The tithe is in there somewhere. The problem is I don't think I have ever heard a sermon on it except toward the end of the fiscal year.


Josh
"...the word of God is not bound."--2 Timothy 2:9
#24966 - Mon May 16, 2005 10:06 PM Re: Since we're talking about money  
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Are their hearts something that God would want?

Speratus are you totally unaware of contemporary Christian culture references or are you just being tiresome? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Ponder.gif" alt="" />

Quote
Is the minimum 10% money/goods something that God would want?

These verses would indicate so: Ge 14:20; Le 27:30-32; Nu 18:21,24,26,28; De 12:6,11,17; 14:23,28; 26:12; 2Ch 31:5-6,12; Ne 10:37-38; 12:44; 13:5,12; Eze 45:11,14; Am 4:4; Mal 3:8,10
Quote
By mandated rule, do you mean a law that condemns the disobedient or a guide for Christians who have been liberated from the law?


Here's the definition you figure it out, unless your being purposely obtuse. MAN'DATE, n. [L. mando, to command.]

1. A command; an order, precept or injunction; a commission.

Quote
Do mandated tithes please God? Or, are they filthy rags of our own righteousness?

I don't know Speratus that's why I asked the question. Tell me does the Lutheran Church still give its members tithe/offering envelopes or is that a thing of the past too?


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
#24967 - Tue May 17, 2005 10:32 AM Re: Since we're talking about money [Re: Peter]  

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Are their hearts something that God would want?
Speratus are you totally unaware of contemporary Christian culture references or are you just being tiresome? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Ponder.gif" alt="" />


I'm totally aware a contemporary Christian culture that believes that God is highly pleased with the gift of our corrupt hearts. A fine gift for our Lord!

Quote
Is the minimum 10% money/goods something that God would want?
These verses would indicate so: Ge 14:20; Le 27:30-32; Nu 18:21,24,26,28; De 12:6,11,17; 14:23,28; 26:12; 2Ch 31:5-6,12; Ne 10:37-38; 12:44; 13:5,12; Eze 45:11,14; Am 4:4; Mal 3:8,10


Do you have any NT references? Are we mandated to support a Levitical priesthood as well?

Quote
Do mandated tithes please God? Or, are they filthy rags of our own righteousness?
I don't know Speratus that's why I asked the question.


The law of mandated tithes only condemns us. The only thing we can truly give God is our sins.

Quote
Tell me does the Lutheran Church still give its members tithe/offering envelopes or is that a thing of the past too?


I have never been associated with a Lutheran church that required tithing. The only justification I can think of for the optional offering envelopes is that documentation is required by the IRS. Even that is questionable. If we are rewarded by the government for our giving, what reward have we of the Father? And what about our fellow church members who do the accounting of our contributions? What sort of reward are we expecting from them? As much as possible, we should not let our left hand know what our right hand does.

Last edited by speratus; Tue May 17, 2005 10:46 AM.
#24968 - Wed May 18, 2005 11:41 PM Re: Since we're talking about money [Re: Peter]  

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Boanerges said:
Quote
Hi, Boanerges. Happy Thursday to you!

I would respectfully submit that the question you ask doesn't get to the heart of what the Bible teaches. A simple answer would be, "No, we are required to give everything we have, but only after we've given our hearts to God."

Here's an outline of the "giving" section from a class I've been involved with on the larger subject of "stewardship."


Thanks, I think, there Ted however I don't see the answer to the question per se. Let's get some assumptions down right away.

If I say Christians lets assume I'm talking about bible believing individuals that have given their hearts to God.

If I say Tithe lets assume that I am talking about at the minimum 10% of the money/goods that a person has.

If I say mandated I mean required as a rule.

Now let's try this again, are Christians mandated to tithe?


The Rich Young Man
17And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 18And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. 19You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.'" 20And he said to him, "Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth." 21And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, "You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." 22Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

23And Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!" 24And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said to them again, "Children, how difficult it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God." 26And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, "Then who can be saved?" 27Jesus looked at them and said, "With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God." 28Peter began to say to him, "See, we have left everything and followed you." 29Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, 30who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life. 31But many who are first will be last, and the last first."
Mark 10:17-31 ESV

Jesus answer? ". . . sell all that you have and give to the poor . . . " (with emphasis added).

#24969 - Thu May 19, 2005 12:05 AM Re: Since we're talking about money  
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I'm totally aware a contemporary Christian culture that believes that God is highly pleased with the gift of our corrupt hearts. A fine gift for our Lord!


I see your answer is no, well that's a rather wordy reply for such a simple question but, if you feel you must elaborate your responses in such a matter. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />

Quote
Do you have any NT references? Are we mandated to support a Levitical priesthood as well?


<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/jawdrop.gif" alt="" /> Hmmm and Baptists get called dispensational. Well here is some for you.
Quote
Hebrews 7:6-9 but he whose genealogy is not counted from them has taken tithes of Abraham, and has blessed him who has the promises. But without any dispute the less is blessed by the better. Here people who die receive tithes, but there one receives tithes of whom it is testified that he lives. So to say, through Abraham even Levi, who receives tithes, has paid tithes,emphasis mine


Now here's a question for you Speratus since Christ is a priest on the order of Melchizedek, and since Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek,(Gen. 14:18-20) should we who have inherited the blessings promised to Abraham (see Gal. 3:14-18)not do the same?

OBTW lest I forget no the Levitical priesthood is done away with but does that mean the Melchizedek priesthood doesn't get tithes?

Quote

The law of mandated tithes only condemns us. The only thing we can truly give God is our sins.


Well I'm not saying that we don't give to God our sins but do you think just once you could come up with something besides opinion? How about some verses, or even something by Luther?

Quote

I have never been associated with a Lutheran church that required tithing. The only justification I can think of for the optional offering envelopes is that documentation is required by the IRS. Even that is questionable. If we are rewarded by the government for our giving, what reward have we of the Father? And what about our fellow church members who do the accounting of our contributions? What sort of reward are we expecting from them? As much as possible, we should not let our left hand know what our right hand does.


Well good thing we're not basing everything upon your experiences then are we? I recall many times in the ELCA church which my father and mother attended where there would be a little box of offerings and tithes envelopes with our family's name upon it. If I recall it was for either a whole month or a whole year, its been too long ago to remember clearly how many times the box appeared. But it did appear.


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
#24970 - Thu May 19, 2005 12:21 AM Re: Since we're talking about money  
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Jesus answer? ". . . sell all that you have and give to the poor . . . " (with emphasis added).


Okay Ted let me get it straight your saying that we need to impoverish ourselves, give the money to the poor and then follow Christ? And you have done this yourself? Ted I must say this is really confusing in fact it smacks of certain monastic vows that I have read about. Can't we plainly talk?


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
#24971 - Thu May 19, 2005 9:06 AM Re: Since we're talking about money [Re: Peter]  
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I don't know about the rest of all that. It seems pretty simple to me. God owns everything and asks for some of it back. We give him the top piece from gross income before we pay any bills. There is always enough. Why does it have to be so hard?

Luke 6:37 (ASV)
38give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, shall they give into your bosom. For with what measure ye mete it shall be measured to you again.

Luke 12:27-31 (ASV)
27Consider the lilies, how they grow: they toil not, neither do they spin; yet I say unto you, Even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 28But if God doth so clothe the grass in the field, which to-day is, and tomorrow is cast into the oven; how much more shall he clothe you, O ye of little faith? 29And seek not ye what ye shall eat, and what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind. 30For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: but your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things. 31Yet seek ye his kingdom, and these things shall be added unto you.

I've always found that if you take care of your part of the Lord's business he'll take care of you. I try hard to do this and my waistband will testify that I am not lacking.


Josh
"...the word of God is not bound."--2 Timothy 2:9
#24972 - Thu May 19, 2005 10:16 AM Re: Since we're talking about money [Re: doulos]  
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doulos said:
We give him the top piece from gross income before we pay any bills. There is always enough. Why does it have to be so hard?

I'm really curious how you would feel if your situation was like far too many in the world outside of the affluent Western societies who barely have enough to eat, never mind concerning themselves with which DVD to rent? There is no question that the Lord provides for all the necessities of life for His own, although at times even those are sometimes meagre, yet they are enough to sustain life. So, let's take a hypothetical example, although it is probably all too real for some. You are working two jobs and bring home $250/week. Your monthly obligations, which include no "luxuries", total $999. So, if you distribute your alleged obligation of a 10% tithe, i.e. $100, to your local church and other agencies, who would you suggest you do not pay what is owed? Do you slight your rent/mortgage payment? eat less? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" /> Would you suggest that a family of 5 live in a 2-room apartment which is less costly so that this 10% tithe can be met?

Inquiring minds wanna know. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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