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Tommy Tenney #25691
Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:42 PM
Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:42 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,578
Kentucky
MarieP Offline OP
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Delivered,

Did you know Tommy Tenney is a heretic?


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Re: Tommy Tenney [Re: MarieP] #25692
Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:05 PM
Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:05 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
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Nebraska
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Marie,

Thanks for bringing that article to light. I was sure someone would say something about Tenney.


tj
"-that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection..."
Re: Tommy Tenney [Re: MarieP] #25693
Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:06 PM
Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:06 PM
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Pennsylvania, USA
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I'm not surprised. I browsed through God Chasers at Barnes & Noble one night, but didn't take the time to read it. From my brief perusal, it looked like yet another how-to manual for deveoping intimacy with God, be more effective for the Kingdom, etc. Frankly, after being exposed to Reformation teaching and practice, this whole body of literature and teaching about the "victorious Christian life" leaves a bad taste in my mouth...even when there's nothing overtly heretical about it.

Relztrah

Re: Tommy Tenney [Re: MarieP] #25694
Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:40 PM
Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:40 PM
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Oh yeah. All you've got to do is start reading "The God Chasers" by Tenney. I heard this book promoted on Tony Evans' radio show about 5 years ago or so and had heard somewhere that there was something "wrong" with Tenney, so I went to the library and just got the book. I kind of had a little change of heart about Tony Evans and his ministry's discernment after that.
I'm definately not any sort of theologian by any means, but Tenney's supposed exegesis of Exodus 19 and 20 is what stuck out to me. It was a totally wrong interpretation. And then there's this whole story of some church he was in and they did some kind of "revival" or something of the sort and then God shows up at their revival meeting and splits the preacher's pulpit in half. Supposedly one can go visit this church (it's somewhere down South) and actually see this pulpit that was split in half by the presence of the Holy Spirit!! Well if that's not enough to chuck Tenney in the garbage, I don't know what is!!! I didn't read your link yet, but these are the huge "red flags" I clearly remember from reading the book (I don't even think I finished the whole thing either - I didn't have to!)

You know I am just continually flabbergasted at the stuff out there that is accepted in evangelical Christianity today. I've come to the conclusion that one of my ways of being "salt" here on earth is to tell those I run into about what I see and discern and try to point back to Scripture. It seems like I'm having to do this a lot lately. What's happening to God and His Word out there with some people? He's being replaced by CBD catalog's Best Seller books and sincere, nice sounding spotlighted pastor's who are "tickling" ears.

Re: Tommy Tenney [Re: MarieP] #25695
Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:14 PM
Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:14 PM
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Who, no strike that I don't want to know.


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
Re: Tommy Tenney [Re: janean] #25696
Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:34 AM
Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:34 AM
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Quote
janean said:
[snip]What's happening to God and His Word out there with some people? He's being replaced by CBD catalog's Best Seller books and sincere, nice sounding spotlighted pastor's who are "tickling" ears.


A sad amen to that. Not to mention two for one sales on real olive wood letter openers at the Christian book store of your choice.


Josh
"...the word of God is not bound."--2 Timothy 2:9
Re: Tommy Tenney [Re: thredj] #25697
Sat Jun 11, 2005 1:06 AM
Sat Jun 11, 2005 1:06 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 41
Kingston, Jamaica
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Delivered Offline
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"Heretic is a name attributed to those who present ideas which are contrary to popular opinion, belief, and/or the status quo of any practice or branch of knowledge".
any nonconformist view within any field may be perceived as "heretical" by others within that field who are convinced that their view is "orthodox".
No I did not know that he was, owing to the fact that I dont actually know him, have not sat down and held conversations with him in which he expressed views that I would have formed this opinion. But I have read God Chasers, God Catchers, and Experiencing His Presence and based on the constant bible quotations and comparison to the Christian walk with that of a family headed by a loving Father I did not actually get the chance to notice the promotion of anything unscriptural on just one reading a piece so please feel free to provide me with the evidence of such a thing within these books as I have not read any others written by him.

My favourite book is the Bible and I must admit that I have not completed any advanced theological courses, but I have learnt a lot about tolerance and love, forgiveness, Christian growth, the path of Salvation, examining myself to identify weaknesses, and a bunch of other stuff. I heard this man speak once and he was relating a story about a humbling experience and I wanted to hear more about this experience so I read God Chasers and I found the concept of wanting to know more about God through encounters with Him very fascinating.

Last edited by Delivered; Sat Jun 11, 2005 1:41 AM.
Re: Tommy Tenney [Re: Delivered] #25698
Sat Jun 11, 2005 1:36 AM
Sat Jun 11, 2005 1:36 AM
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Kingston, Jamaica
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I tend to lean more toward getting my teachings directly from the word of God and if someone shares something I listen and wait until it is confirmed in the Word and discussed at length with the person prior to forming serious opinions of a person's place on the salvation road. I am by no means saying that we should not be wary of things that seem too fantastic, but my job is to share the Gospel, only the one presented in the Bible and listen to the concerns of those persons who want to make a step towards salvation. I also share with Brothers and Sisters in Christ and discuss topics that are of concern or are burning issues but I generally tend to stay away from name calling. There are other issues that I find burning such as:
1) The seeming tolerance of Violence as a solution to problems as observed by the acceptance of war in the age of Grace as a solution to problems. As if God is some how powerless to defeat our enemies. Whatever happened to "we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and spiritual wickedness in high places.." I did not know that we can fight the devil with guns and bombs.
2) How acceptable it is to spend a fortune on physical structures (the old temple idea) and very little comparitively on people (signifying true religion).
3) How miracles(not magic) are all but excluded from our Christian belief to the point where if persons experience something miraculous they dare not talk about it for fear of being frowned upon.
Well I live in a geographical location where I believe the Hand of God has worked a miracle by coming between us and a very destructive huricane that seemed sure to have hit us. I have a cousin who I believed was saved from certain death on 911 by the intervention of God and I thank God.

Re: Tommy Tenney [Re: Delivered] #25699
Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:54 AM
Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:54 AM
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Quote
Delivered wrote:
"Heretic is a name attributed to those who present ideas which are contrary to popular opinion, belief, and/or the status quo of any practice or branch of knowledge".


"Heretic" is also a word that has been used since the first century by the church to describe individuals whose beliefs and/or conduct depart from apostolic teaching and Scripture (e.g., 2 Peter 2:1).

Quote

if someone shares something I listen and wait until it is confirmed in the Word and discussed at length with the person prior to forming serious opinions of a person's place on the salvation road.


No one, so far as I can tell, has ventured any opinion whatever about the state of Tom Tenney's soul or his "place on the salvation road;" rather, it is his erroneous and unbiblical (and therefore heretical) teachings that have been justly condemned.

Quote

No I did not know that he was [a heretic], owing to the fact that I dont actually know him, have not sat down and held conversations with him in which he expressed views that I would have formed this opinion...

I did not actually get the chance to notice the promotion of anything unscriptural on just one reading a piece so please feel free to provide me with the evidence of such a thing within these books as I have not read any others written by him.


The article that Marie linked provides all the "evidence" anyone would need to justify him in calling Tenney a heretic. Yet even so, the article does say that "Tenney has many valuable things to say," and that there are "several biblically sound and honorable aspects of Tenney's ministry." I think the writer goes out of his way to be charitable, and bends over backwards to give Tenney the benefit of the doubt; but, Tenney's "elusiveness" and refusal to clarify his muddled and ambiguous statements about the Trinity, especially in light of his Oneness Pentecostal background and pantheistic definition of God, are a cause for deep concern, as are his denigrating references to Scripture as "dusty love letters that were written long ago," "past truth," or "moldy pages of what God has done." His views about man's natural ability to seek God and "choose the truth" are also deeply and disturbingly unorthodox (i.e., unbiblical), as are his views regarding the precedence of subjective religious experience and continuing revelation over the objective and eternal truth of God's Word revealed in Scripture.

Quote

How miracles(not magic) are all but excluded from our Christian belief to the point where if persons experience something miraculous they dare not talk about it for fear of being frowned upon.


I hope no one here would feel fearful about sharing an experience of God's miraculous working in their lives or in the lives of someone they know. People do that on the Prayer Forum all the time. Do you have a particular group in mind, or is it that you think Tenney is being unfairly criticized and/or dismissed because of some of his rather extraordinary claims, such as the famous pulpit that was split in half by the presence of the Holy Spirit that Janean mentioned?


In Christ,

Brad


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Re: Tommy Tenney [Re: BradJHammond] #25700
Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:25 AM
Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:25 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 41
Kingston, Jamaica
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BradJHammond
I am very sorry but this link that you say that was provided by Marie is quite absent from this view of the forum that I am logged into and even after reading your post I re-checked to see if I may have missed it. Maybe you could try sending it to me.

Also, what is the consensus on the final outcome of a confirmed heretic?

In these articles is there a link to the sources of his unexplained claims such as where it was that he said it? Or were these claims mentioned in the Books that I have listed so that I can borrow these books and look for these claims because if he made these very claims in those books I honestly missed it. I am familiar with the "Oneness" position of a group of Churches that exist in my geographical location which have bases in the US (Most if not all the churches here have a point of origin in the US) and I have observed a falling away from this position by at least one person, with a deeper study of the word all on his own. So I continue to stress the importance of Bible study and Prayer as the way to understanding the scriptures as compared to just holding on to whatever popular belief that seems to be more in line with how we want to live, the truth as expressed by God inspired text is more important than our personal positions (I think).

If Jesus is viewed as being God through the fact that He is and extension of His Father, carrying out the will of His Father, and that the Holy Spirit is an extension of both, then this seems (to me)in keeping with scripture. However if there is a drive or movement to replace all with just the existence of one then this is not supported in the Bible at all. At least not from the Bible I read.

Also the way in which an opinion is stated if done in a way that seemingly suggests a definite confirmation of a subject may influence the way in which others perceive the argument. In this case someones character is at stake and possible condemnation by others, not the originator of the statement.

It is my opinion that such things should be done carefully. If I made a mistake in how I perceieved waht was said, then I apologise for seeming too harsh in my assesment of what was said.

Last edited by Delivered; Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:34 AM.
Re: Tommy Tenney [Re: Delivered] #25701
Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:02 PM
Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:02 PM
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Dear Delivered,

Quote

I am very sorry but this link that you say that was provided by Marie is quite absent from this view of the forum that I am logged into and even after reading your post I re-checked to see if I may have missed it. Maybe you could try sending it to me.


The link is in the very first post on this thread, but in case you still have difficulty with it try this one:
Click here: http://www.equip.org/free/DT252.htm

And in case that still doesn't work, I've also sent you a copy by private email. That article has footnotes which reference every statement by Tenney, mainly from his books, such as The God Chasers, The God Catchers, God's Dream Team, and God's Favorite House. Until you have read this I do not feel it would be very constructive or edifying for either of us to discuss the merits of the "charges" against Tenney. Suffice it to say that Tenney was given ample opportunity to respond to the charges by the author of the article, and even initially agreed, but later declined once the questions were received.

I am uncomfortable with your description of Jesus and the Holy Spirit as "extensions" of the Father, but we may discuss that further after you have read the article. Even if your views of the Trinity are themselves heretical (which I am not yet suggesting), perhaps you will still be open to the teachings of the Scriptures and the church, which would put you in a different category from Mr. Tenney, who has been exposed to the truth on many, many occasions and had ample opportunities to bring his views into conformity with the Word of God. One may accidentally fall into or embrace a heresy for a short while, and this is different from being a confirmed heretic, one who has been approached and reproved about the matter on several occasions but is nevertheless recalcitrant. I'm afraid Tenney falls into this category, and his sin is made even worse by the fact that he has set himself up as a teacher, who, according to the Scriptures, will be judged more strictly and with a greater judgement (James 3:1).

While I am not a strict cessationist, Tenney's errors are I believe typical of the Charismatic, Third Wave, and Word Faith movements, the latter of which is outright heresy. I understand that the influence of these groups is significant in places like Jamaica, but I would encourage you to seek out more nourishing fare. If I or anyone else here can be of any assistance in helping you find more enriching and upbuilding materials please don't hesitate to ask.

Quote

what is the consensus on the final outcome of a confirmed heretic?


I suppose by this you mean, can a confirmed heretic be saved. If that is what you are asking my answer would be no, not if he continues in the heresy until the moment of his death. However, since no one can know this until after a person has died, and even then we are not privy to what has transpired privately between that person and God, I don't believe any of us are ever in a position to judge for certain whether or not another person is saved. No one here, so far as I can tell has said anything about the salvation of Mr. Tenney, and I doubt that anyone will. The issue before us is whether or not his views are heretical, and whether or not he should be trusted as a teacher. My conclusion, after reading the article, is that his views are heretical and that he should not be trusted as a teacher. There are too many excellent teachers, ministries, and resources out there to waste time on such trash, and these are judgments God's people are entitled, indeed commanded to make.


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Re: Tommy Tenney [Re: Delivered] #25702
Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:29 PM
Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:29 PM
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Posts: 13,471
NH, USA
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Quote
Delivered said:
BradJHammond
I am very sorry but this link that you say that was provided by Marie is quite absent from this view of the forum that I am logged into and even after reading your post I re-checked to see if I may have missed it. Maybe you could try sending it to me.

The link Click here is to an article which is a ".pdf" document. To read it you must have Adobe Acrobat Reader installed on your computer. If you do not have Acrobat Reader (a free program) PM me and I will copy it and format into one which you can read, e.g., MS Word.doc, RTF or even a Text file (.txt) and then send it to you, if you so desire.

Quote
You then asked:
Also, what is the consensus on the final outcome of a confirmed heretic?

That would all depend upon the error being embraced by the individual. If it is one of the fundamentals of the faith, e.g., Trinity, deity of any of the 3 persons of the Trinity, vicarious substitutionary atonement, Sola Fide (justification by faith alone) et al, then the end is damnation. There are many errors (depending upon which Confession one holds to) which are not damnable, e.g., mode of baptism, frequency of the Lord's Supper, when Christ will return, et al. In Tenney's case, the issue(s) being questioned are fundamental and thus of utmost importance.

Quote
Next, you asked:
In these articles is there a link to the sources of his unexplained claims such as where it was that he said it? Or were these claims mentioned in the Books that I have listed so that I can borrow these books and look for these claims because if he made these very claims in those books I honestly missed it.

There are many references and all footnoted in that article. And yes, some were taken from several of Tenney's books, some of which you say you have read.

Quote
You then stated:
If Jesus is viewed as being God through the fact that He is and extension of His Father, carrying out the will of His Father, and that the Holy Spirit is an extension of both, then this seems (to me)in keeping with scripture. However if there is a drive or movement to replace all with just the existence of one then this is not supported in the Bible at all. At least not from the Bible I read.

Perhaps you are not familiar with the ages-old doctrine of the Trinity, how it has been attacked, the language used by those who oppose it and its defense by the Church? The errors have been many over the centuries, one in particular held by Arius, that revolved around one single letter in a word. In other words, the doctrine of the Trinity being of utmost importance must be rightly understood and properly stated. I bring this up because of the phraseology/terminology you used to describe the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit above; i.e., you wrote: "He is and extension of His Father". The "Son" is NOT an "extension" of anyone, nor is the Holy Spirit. They are both individual, albeit not divisible, persons of the Godhead. Each in their own right is God, yet inseparable from the other persons. The universally accepted statement of the nature of the Godhead (Trinity) and that which is true to Scripture is found in the Athanasian Creed, written in the 4th century:


The Athanasian Creed


Whoever wills to be in a state of salvation, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic [1] faith, which except everyone shall have kept whole and undefiled without doubt he will perish eternally.

Now the catholic faith is that we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is One, the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit; the Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated; the father infinite, the Son infinite, and the Holy Spirit infinite; the Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet not three eternals but one eternal, as also not three infinites, nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and one infinite. So, likewise, the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty; and yet not three almighties but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son God, and the Holy Spirit God; and yet not three Gods but one God. So the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; and yet not three Lords but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by Christian truth to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be both God and Lord; so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, there be three Gods or three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made nor created but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and the Son, not made nor created nor begotten but proceeding. So there is one Father not three Fathers, one Son not three Sons, and one Holy Spirit not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity there is nothing before or after, nothing greater or less, but the whole three Persons are coeternal together and coequal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Trinity in Unity and the Unity in Trinity is to be worshipped. He therefore who wills to be in a state of salvation, let him think thus of the Trinity.

But it is necessary to eternal salvation that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. The right faith therefore is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man. He is God of the substance of the Father begotten before the worlds, and He is man of the substance of His mother born in the world; perfect God, perfect man subsisting of a reasoning soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who although He be God and Man yet He is not two but one Christ; one however not by conversion of the Godhead in the flesh, but by taking of the Manhood in God; one altogether not by confusion of substance but by unity of Person. For as the reasoning soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again from the dead, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, from whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life eternal, and they who indeed have done evil into eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith, which except a man shall have believed faithfully and firmly he cannot be in a state of salvation.


I would encourage you to read this ancient document of the Christian Church and consider carefully what it is saying concerning the nature of the Godhead and the three persons of which it consists.

EDIT: I see Brad has provided another link to the same article which is in ".htm/html" format and thus can be accessed without the need of Acrobat Reader. Thanks for that, Brad!

In His Grace,

Last edited by Pilgrim; Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:34 PM.

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Re: Tommy Tenney [Re: Pilgrim] #25703
Sat Jun 11, 2005 1:15 PM
Sat Jun 11, 2005 1:15 PM
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Sorry to anyone if this sounds "sychophantic," but thanks Pilgrim for the more thorough response to Delivered's questions and comments. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/coffee2.gif" alt="" />


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Re: Tommy Tenney [Re: Delivered] #25704
Sun Jun 12, 2005 10:18 AM
Sun Jun 12, 2005 10:18 AM

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Quote
Delivered said:

Also, what is the consensus on the final outcome of a confirmed heretic?


Humanly speaking, excommunication. However, if the heretic has gathered itching ears around him in his own personal congregation, that is unlikely to occur. It is important for an orthodox synod to expel both the heretical teacher and the congregation after they have been admonished.

Re: Tommy Tenney [Re: MarieP] #25705
Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:23 AM
Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:23 AM
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I finally figured out how to get to the link you were referring to).
You know when I just got saved or converted, when I first accepted my predestination, whatever term is the popular or accepted term, I wanted to be baptized as soon as I read more of the bible it was as if I was reading it for the first time even though I grew up going to bible glasses at Sunday school and other various Christian meetings. I spoke to the first Christian that I had the chance to, turns out he was what we call a "Pentecostal" he kept insisting that if I was not baptized in Jesus' name only that I would not be saved. He said also that it was dangerous for me to read the bible by myself that I needed guidance, to be guided by someone who was filled with the Holy spirit. Another from a different church said that the Father Son and the Holy Spirit was the only way to be baptized. I needed to be fully immersed, did not need to be fully immersed. I was thoroughly confused as a new convert. Quite by chance I ended up seeing a young man on the television he was close to my age and his father who was a pastor had died and he had just taken over as Pastor of the church. Anyway before I hear that there is something wrong with him as well, let me get to the point, he spoke on being in a place where the answers to a question seem hard to come by (quite applicable in my case) that we should return to a place where a similar question was answered and wait until the answer comes. I did. When we were getting married it was important to my wife and myself that we do what is right before God as it relates to our relationship and one of the instructions in the word is to be married instead of being in a relationship of sin. We both wanted to be married by someone who believed the same thing and was not just doing it because they were being paid to.
We found my Mother's old choir director who was now a marriage officer and he sat with us and shared the same view and he provided many bible based answers for our questions. He was the one who married us.
I went to him with my confusion and concerns and he took the bible and we read through all the scriptures regarding the topic of being baptized and it became clear to me from the scriptures what batism signified and why I needed to be baptized, so I was baptised as the bible says that I should be.
There are many different voices in the world and I prefer to listen to the God who knew my name before the world was framed. The one who kept me through all the things that have happened to me leading up to and after I accepted His call, His promise. There are many differing theologies and beliefs that all claim to or use scriptures to defend the varying points or positions, however the one thing that encourages, and fuels my faith is the scriptures that speak of God's Love that he has for us all. The driving force that provided the means for our salvation and the only thing that I understand fully is His Love for us. We do not desrve it but He is perfect in all His ways and His Love keeps me alive in a sometimes hostile environment.

There are many words that have been created to put a name to a multitude of theological postions and I have friends from my church who know quite a bit of them but I am not in any way impressed by these terms or names or postions. I am impressed by the simplier theology, one of the truest expression of Love showing me that someone is following God is not based on words for me as words are often times misused (as I am guilty of daily also) communication is made even more difficult because of the judgemental or opinionated state of most of us. Also the zeal with which we rush to point out the errors of others add to the difficulty in communicating. I understand the love of a father as God has blessed me with a son born through the dispensation of miracle in the face of tremendous complications. As imperfect as I am, God has chosen to bless me with a beautiful boy who has changed my heart about many things that I thought I held firm to. But how is our Religion, how is my religion, is it the True Religion as defined in the word of God. Do people look at us and see the teachings of Christ personified. Are we defined as Caring, Gentle, God Lead people, are we called "Christians", like those at Antioch when it was observed that they walked as Christ did. That is how I look at theology, that is the proof of ones heart to me. Not big and important sounding names.
I thought this was finally a place to discuss the things of God without the noise of name calling and the ignoring of Matthew 7:1. I..
Bless you all. May God overcome each of you with His Blessings and Love to everyone. May He forgive us all for our errors (I also). May His theology fill our minds and move our hearts.

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