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#2572 - Wed May 07, 2003 9:31 PM Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?  

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Are Calvinism and Premillennialism incompatible? Pilgrim says he thinks they are, but I know of nothing the Bible says that makes that so. Also, I have heard Arminians say they are, but I've never seen the proof.

I am a Calvinist. Also, I am a dispensational, pre-tribulation, premillennialist.

Believe me, People, all of this fits together very nicely!

#2573 - Thu May 08, 2003 3:32 AM Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?  
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Think of this one thing and consider whether it is consistent with reformed theology: In dispensationalism, it is thought that it is God's plan that the Jews return to temple worship and the offering of sacrifices for sin. How can this possibly be consist with the reformed view of the finished work of Christ? This one thing, more than anything else, helped me see that one cannot hold reformed and dispensational views and be consistent.

I would recommend reading John Murray's "Redemption, Accomplished and Applied" It has been a pivotal book in my understanding of the atonement and, by extension, it has informed my understanding of eschatology.


Trust the past to God's mercy, the present to God's love and the future to God's providence." - St. Augustine
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#2574 - Thu May 08, 2003 6:15 AM Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?  
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IMHO dispensational, pre-tribulation, premillennialist positions are incompatible with the doctrines of grace, and they compromise God's aseity (self-existence), and sovereignty.

I would suggest reading:

1. Some historical data on Dispensationalism. Its mere history is so full of cultic action that it should beg the question, "How could I have ever believed this mess?"


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#2575 - Thu May 08, 2003 6:17 AM Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?  
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Most (there's that wacky word again) Reformed people I know would say that it is incompatible. I don't see how they can say that, though. There is nothing inconsistent with being Reformed and Premil.
As an aside....Gordon Clark was premillenial (posttrib, however).

Steve


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#2576 - Thu May 08, 2003 6:49 PM Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible? [Re: J_Edwards]  

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This topic is not about the validity of dispensationalism.

And you stated an opinion, but you offered no proof

#2577 - Thu May 08, 2003 7:18 PM Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?  
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In reply to:
This topic is not about the validity of dispensationalism.

    1. Premillennialism and Dispensationalism are akin.
    2. If Dispensationalism is false then so is Premillennialism.
    3. If Premillennialism is false then it is not compatible with Calvinism, which is true.
    4. Thus, the topic of Dispensationalism is an issue, and a term used in your original post! The material I listed offers proof enough that both Premillennialism/Dispensationalism are not compatible with Calvinism.

    Since, there are numerous brands of Premillennialism/Dispensationalism it would assist us in knowing exactly what you embrace. Now, if you would like to state a specific issue in Premillennialism/Dispensationalism that you claim is true I am sure we would grant your wish to get more specific (of course a whole commentary on Revelation I posted was very specific as well and if you read it you would have seen Premillennialism/Dispensationalism crumble).


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#2578 - Thu May 08, 2003 8:01 PM Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible? [Re: gotribe]  

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According to Ezekiel, animal sacrifices are made during the Millennial Kingdom rule. At that time, the Dispensation of the Church (Grace) will be over. This will be the Dispensation of the Kingdom. At the second coming of Christ, there will be believers who go into the Kingdom who will not have glorified bodies. They will bear children, who will be born with a sin nature, and who will sin. Some of them will be very rebellious, in fact (Rev. 20:7-9). Animal sacrifices will be offered for the sins of these people. They will not be saved by Grace through faith. They will not have the in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit. How could they be saved by faith, since the Messiah is right there, walking in their midst? I repeat: the Dispensation of Grace is over at that time.

Under these circumstances, temple worship and sacrifice make perfect sense to me. I don't see how this is inconsistant with reformed theology.

This brings up issues I had never thought about: namely, that during the Kingdom, I suppose God will be doing more choosing. This has been His pattern throughout all of history: He chose the Jews, He chose the prophets, He chose the Apostles, He chooses us Christians.

#2579 - Thu May 08, 2003 8:22 PM Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible? [Re: J_Edwards]  

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No one can prove that dispensationalism is false, so you are beating a dead horse.

No one can prove that premillennialism is false.

No one can prove that pretribulation is false.

Yes, dispensationalism and premillennialism do go together.

In reply to:
[color:"blue"] it would assist us in knowing what you embrace.



There are 7 dispensations. They are:
The Dispensation of: Innocence, Conscience, Human Government, Promise, Law, Church (or Grace), Kingdom.

And them after that comes eternity.

Pretrib. means the church is raptured before the tribulation.

Premill. means there is a Millennial Kingdom and Jesus Christ comes before it begins.

Have you ever heard of John MacArthur, JR. (Masters Seminary) or Dallas Theological Seminary? My beliefs are pretty much consistant with both, except on the issue of "Christian Psychology".


#2580 - Thu May 08, 2003 9:06 PM Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?  
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MacArthurís dispensational and pre-tribulation bias appear in his commentary on Revelation:
    1. in his comments about Philadelphia (3:10).
    2. When discussing Rev 4:1 he falls into the familiar trap of saying that the church is nowhere mentioned in chaps 4-19.
    3. the 144,000 are a select group of Jewish believers.
    4. Rev 11:1-2 refers to a rebuilt Jewish temple and a restored sacrificial system.[/LIST] Now according to MacArthur the church is nowhere to be seen after chap 3. I have to ask how the 144,000 get converted if there is no one to evangelize them? While I agree that the word church does not occur in chap 4-19, what about the word [color:red]saints which occurs 12 times, not to mention [color:red]servants 6 times and [color:red]prophets 6 times? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/idea.gif" alt="idea" title="idea[/img]

    But, this is a small inconsistency as compared to much else he writes. Tell me your interpretation of Rev 20:1-6?


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#2581 - Thu May 08, 2003 9:08 PM Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?  
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In reply to:
Have you ever heard of John MacArthur, JR. (Masters Seminary)

Doubtless, John MacArthur and The Masters Seminary are very well known by most all on this Board. grin But, I must tell you that Mr. MacArthur, although he holds to a form of Premillennialism would strongly oppose your "classical Dispensational" views! wink I must tell you that even as far back as 1982, MacArthur was teaching the perpetuity of the Moral Law. For, I heard him present this historic view personally. However, fredman would be most qualified to deal with the discontinuities between MacArthur's teaching and that of C.I. Scofield and John Nelson Darby.

To state

In reply to:
No one can prove that dispensationalism is false, so you are beating a dead horse.

No one can prove that premillennialism is false.

No one can prove that pretribulation is false.

is, well...... naive? Because this system of theology has been thoroughly disputed and proven wrong since its inception 160+ years ago. Perhaps you have only been exposed to this teaching and haven't had the opportunity to read and/or hear the countless arguments against it. That would surely provide an answer why you are given to such bold statements. bigglasses

Can I also assume that you haven't taken the time to read anything here: Eschatology: The Doctrine of Last Things

or, perhaps this one: Dispensationalism and the Bible

or, even this one: The Scofield Bible, Dispensationalism and the Salvation of the Jews

In His Grace,



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#2582 - Thu May 08, 2003 9:40 PM Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible? [Re: J_Edwards]  

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If you will read Rev. 11, you will see that there are two Christians left behind after the rapture. These two people will spread the gospel. This takes place in Israel. Some will believe them, and I assume the ones who believe, will also spread the gospel. There will be people converted after the tribulation begins. Does this answer your question?<br><br>And too, won't there still be bibles left on earth?

#2583 - Thu May 08, 2003 10:05 PM Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible? [Re: Pilgrim]  

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I said my beliefs and the teachings of John MacArthur, Jr. and Dallas Theological Seminary are pretty much the same. That was just sort of a guideline. A lot of the staff at Dallas Theological Sem. don't believe in Lordship Theology. I do. I don't own a John McArthur Study bible (I've been told there are a few inaccuracies in it), but I am in the process of buying his New Testament Commentaries.<br><br>The only reason I even brought that up to begin with, was to make the point that I am not the only Calvinist who is a dispensationalists. <br><br>I will check out some of those web sites you recommended. I got your web site from one of the pastors at Grace Community Church (MacArthur's church).

#2584 - Thu May 08, 2003 10:07 PM Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?  

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In reply to:
[color:"blue"]Are Calvinism and Premillennialism incompatible? Pilgrim says he thinks they are, but I know of nothing the Bible says that makes that so. Also, I have heard Arminians say they are, but I've never seen the proof.

I am a Calvinist. Also, I am a dispensational, pre-tribulation, premillennialist.

Believe me, People, all of this fits together very nicely!



Joannah:

The problem is what you call Calvinism is just the soterology of the entire system of Reformed theology. Taken as a whole the Reformed Theology is antithetical with strict Scofield Dispensationalism or with its "reformed" version as promoted by Ryrie.

Also, while there are not many, there are premillenialists in the Reformed circles. Charles Spurgeon was one such. But they are not dispensational premillenailists they are what is know as historic premillenailists who see Christ with His church ruling an earthly reign and a earthly kingdom.

As a former Scofieldian Dispensationalist I would seriously urge you to reconsider your position and re-examine those articles that you were shown. I would also urge you to read the book by Keith A. Mathison Dispensationalism: Rightly Dividing the People of God?


#2585 - Thu May 08, 2003 10:52 PM Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?  

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PrestorJohn:
Believe me, I knew when I came on this forum that most Calvinist are Amillennialist. I also know there is more to Reformed Theology than Calvinism. (I accidently picked up the word Reformed from one of the other posters and said there was no contradiction in Reformed theology and Millennial animal sacrifices, whereas what I meant was there is no contradiction in Calvinism and Millennial animal sacrifices.)

I also know that the reformers believed the Law of Moses is important in sanctification. Is that the situation on this forum?

In reply to:
[color:"blue"]Taken as a whole, Reformed Theology is antithetical with strict Scofield Dispensationalism or with it's "reformed" version as promoted by Ryrie.



I'll take your word for that, but the important thing is to be biblical. There is no one group of people that I want to latch on to as being my authority. Not the Reformers or anyone else. The Word of God is the only authority.

I AM going to check out the recommended web sites.


#2586 - Fri May 09, 2003 6:36 AM Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?  
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In reply to:
If you will read Rev. 11, you will see that there are two Christians left behind after the rapture.

Thank you for affirming that the WHOLE Church was not raptured as MacArthur states (N.T.Commentary, Revelation, vol 1., page 124 ff.). MacArthur as many others make a terrible transition in Rev 3:10. They assert that the whole Church will be (raptured)kept from the hour of tribulation (tereo ek)--so much for dispensational literal translations of the text? MacArthur admits that the only other place [color:red]tereo ek is used in Scripture is John 17:15:

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest [color:red]keep them from the evil.
Jesus states both passages and John wrote them (John 17:15, Rev 3:10). Notice that Christ DID NOT pray that His elect should be taken OUT OF THE WORLD (i.e. rapture), but [color:red]kept from (through) the evil in the world. Thus, in the midst of tribulation evil will not overcome God's elect fully and finally. They will be [color:red]kept through the hour of temptation what comes upon the world to try them that dwell upon the earth. Compare Matt 24:22, Mark 13:20, Acts 18:9-10, Isa 43:2.

There is a great deal more here that could be said, but for now that will suffice.

In reply to:
And too, won't there still be bibles left on earth?

Let us remain literal to the text shall we?

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have [color:red]not heard? and how shall they hear [color:red]without a preacher?
[color:red]Two Witnesses:

So two people are going to evangelize the whole world...in 1260 days. Amazing B. Graham, every denominations missionary efforts, and the rest of the Church has not been able to do this in 6000 years (+/-), but now TWO people are going to make it all happen for millions of others in 1260 days drop

The problem here is that you have mis-interpreted the TWO witnesses as merely two individual people. But these two witnesses represent the CHURCH bearing the testimony of the Gospel by ministers and missionaries throughout the present dispensation. They are representative of the missionary task of the church:

Luke 10:1 After these things the LORD appointed other seventy also, and sent them [color:red]two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
The Lord sends His missionaries out TWO by TWO, each with different gifts complimenting the other..Thus. what you are reading in Rev 11 is the Church (still present on the earth--no rapture yet) doing God's will for 1260 days (symbolic of period of time-dispensation-from Christ's ascension to almost until the judgment day--Rev 12:14):

Revelation 12:5-14 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Now, I know you will say that you are MORE literal with the terminology than I am and thus my interpretation must be faulty. Dispensationalists pride themselves in being so literal, but this is another discussion in and of it self for they too MUST interpret the text symbolically as well (of course only where it pleases their own system, as in MacArthur above). But, the highest order of interpretation of these TWO witnesses needs to be the Scripture themselves. The Church is represented elsewhere in Scripture by twos and its mission explained. Briefly:
    1. Remember the two olive trees, the two candlesticks, and Joshua and Zerubbabel (Zec 4) each represented the offices through which God blessed Israel. This then is representative of God blessing His Church through His offices in this Gospel age through the preaching of His Word and the administration of the sacraments (two).

    2. As I stated above the missionaries were sent out two by two (Luke 10:1), so throughout this Gospel Age the Church as an organization, fulfills its mission in the world. [/LIST] The Church is powerful! However this mighty Church age will come to an end. The Church as a missionary organization will come to the end of its appointed mission. The beast shall rise up and destroy much of the Church (Armageddon). But not every believer will be destroyed. A small remnant shall be here when Christ returns (Luke 18:8). But the richness of the Church's missionary effort will fade. The world will gloat and look upon the Church as defeated.

    But, the two witnesses rise again. In connection with Christ's Second Coming, the Church is restored to life, honor, and the power to influence.. Then comes the end. For the world the hour of opportunity is gone, but the Church triumphant hears the words "Come Up Hither". The Church ascends and its enemies follow. The judgment now comes.

    The Scripture says there is ONE judgment. How many judgments are in your system? Funny, how can there be a secret rapture when Christ comes with a Shout? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/megashout.gif" alt="megashout" title="megashout[/img]

    What about your exposition of Rev 20:1-6?


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