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#25903 - Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:15 AM Re: Babies, toddlers and the mentally retarded [Re: Wes]  
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 969
Peter Offline
Old Hand
Peter  Offline
Old Hand

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 969
USA
Quote
Wes said:
Quote
The Doctor said:
Elect babies are regenerated; non elect babies aren't.
All babies aren't elect, otherwise the Lord wouldn't have destroyed Sodom, since there were obviously babies there.


Doc,

Who says there were any babies in Sodom? Homosexuals don't make babies! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


Wes <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Got a point there Wes one of the derogatory remarks used by 'sodomites' against 'straights' is breeder. I remember a gay rally where the chant was two four six eight we don't over populate. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/puke.gif" alt="" />


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
#25904 - Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:34 AM Re: Babies, toddlers and the mentally retarded [Re: Pilgrim]  

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Quote
Pilgrim said:
Quote
speratus said:
It is not the exercise of faith that justifies but faith itself that justifies. Faith is not a good work but a gift of God whereby we lay hold of Christ and His righteousness not having a righteousness of our own.

ABSOLUTELY NOT...... it is NOT "faith itself that justifies", my friend, but Christ, upon the union with Him through faith (a vehicle, means), God declares the sinner justified. Faith in and of itself has absolutely no value whatsoever. It is the OBJECT of faith that justifies. I am shocked to see you write such a thing.


I was trying to point out the error of associating the exercise of faith with faith itself. I grant my wording could have been a little better (i.e., faith that justifies). However, I am surprised you object to a basic expression that has been so widely used and understood among the Reformers in the very sense that I use and explain the expression. Faith does indeed justify because it is the only means whereby we lay hold of Christ and His righteousness.

#25905 - Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:14 AM Re: Babies, toddlers and the mentally retarded  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,293
Pilgrim Offline
Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,293
NH, USA
Quote
speratus said:
I was trying to point out the error of associating the exercise of faith with faith itself. I grant my wording could have been a little better (i.e., faith that justifies). However, I am surprised you object to a basic expression that has been so widely used and understood among the Reformers in the very sense that I use and explain the expression. Faith does indeed justify because it is the only means whereby we lay hold of Christ and His righteousness.

But no one here has ever even hinted that one's "exercising of faith" is what justifies. In fact, this is something which the majority of us here have opposed and exposed as error for as long as I can remember. It is your own error (extremism and tunnel-vision) which drives you to object to that which doesn't even exist and make at best, foolish statements which against Scripture. Secondly, you didn't offer any "explanation" to your bold statement: "It is not the exercise of faith that justifies but [color:"red"]faith itself that justifies[/color]", other than to say that faith is not a work but a gift of God. That is hardly a defense for the "poor wording" used. Thirdly, you are hardly any "Reformer" and have shown to be fraught with errors and have opposed the doctrines held by the Reformers over and over again. To suggest that your words, even when similar to that written by any of the Reformers should be taken at face value is almost humorous. And lastly, it would be foolish for me to allow you to say that "faith itself justifies" was widely used and understood by the "Reformers" and therefore I should have understood what you meant. I offer but one man's words; John Calvin who certainly was one of the "Reformers", to show that this too is not true. And notice that a real explanation is included with his words.


[color:"blue"]BOOK III CHAPTER 11 SECTION 7
THE SIGNIFICANCE OF FAITH FOR JUSTIFICATION


When he [Osiander] objects that the power of justifying exists not in faith, considered in itself, but only as receiving Christ, I willingly admit it. For did faith justify of itself, or (as it is expressed) by its own intrinsic virtue, as it is always weak and imperfect, its efficacy would be partial, and thus our righteousness being maimed would give us only a portion of salvation. We indeed imagine nothing of the kind, but say, that, properly speaking, God alone justifies. The same thing we likewise transfer to Christ, because he was given to us for righteousness; while we compare faith to a kind of vessel, because we are incapable of receiving Christ, unless we are emptied and come with open mouth to receive his grace. Hence it follows, that we do not withdraw the power of justifying from Christ, when we hold that, previous to his righteousness, he himself is received by faith. Still, however, I admit not the tortuous figure of the sophist, that faith is Christ; as if a vessel of clay were a treasure, because gold is deposited in it. And yet this is no reason why faith, though in itself of no dignity or value, should not justify us by giving Christ; Just as such a vessel filled with coin may give wealth. I say, therefore, that faith, which is only the instrument for receiving justification, is ignorantly confounded with Christ, who is the material cause, as well as the author and minister of this great blessing. This disposes of the difficulty, viz., how the term faith is to be understood when treating of justification.


Now, how about going: [Linked Image] . . . or else begin a new topic on the subject of the nature of faith and/or justification.

In His Grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#25906 - Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:41 AM Re: Babies, toddlers and the mentally retarded  
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
CovenantInBlood Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian
CovenantInBlood  Offline
Persnickety Presbyterian


Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Virginia
Quote
speratus said:

Our exercise of faith, in no way, justifies us before God. The exercise of faith is always impure because of the old man that dwells within us.

It is not the exercise of faith that justifies but faith itself that justifies. Faith is not a good work but a gift of God whereby we lay hold of Christ and His righteousness not having a righteousness of our own.


No, faith itself does not justify. GOD justifies! However, we are justified through that faith which we are given in regeneration. What does it mean "to exercise faith"? It means "to lay hold of Christ"! What does the Scripture say when it speaks of Abraham? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness" (Rom. 4:3). Who believed, who exercised faith, who trusted God, who laid hold of Christ? Abraham did. And by this means, and no other, Abraham was justified, and so we all. See this article: "Justification by Faith Alone (the Nature of Justifying Faith)," by Dr. John H. Gerstner.

Quote
Yes, regeneration precedes the exercise of faith. However, that is not the question. The question is: Does regeneration precede justification by faith?


It must precede justification by faith because there is no faith before regeneration.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#25907 - Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:03 PM Re: Babies, toddlers and the mentally retarded [Re: Peter]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 41
Delivered Offline
Newbie
Delivered  Offline
Newbie

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 41
Kingston, Jamaica
Wes and Boanerges,
Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/applause.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

#25908 - Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:24 PM Re: Babies, toddlers and the mentally retarded [Re: Delivered]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 41
Delivered Offline
Newbie
Delivered  Offline
Newbie

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 41
Kingston, Jamaica
Pilgrim:
"Yet, what actually brings salvation is the sovereign spiritual (invisible) work of the Holy Spirit in the elect's soul, which "normally" is expressed outwardly and visibly. However, when regeneration occurs, the natural and infallible response of the new nature is a reaching out to God. The fact that it may not be perceptible does not negate its reality."

I agree. It is God who does the drawing and the Holy spirit that does the work. This covers whomever in whatever state of development.

#25909 - Thu May 24, 2007 11:39 AM Re: Babies, toddlers and the mentally retarded [Re: Peter]  
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 193
BradJHammond Offline
Member
BradJHammond  Offline
Member

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 193
TN
Quote

Boanerges said:

I remember a gay rally where the chant was two four six eight we don't over populate. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/puke.gif" alt="" />


Hey Boanerges,

What were you doing at a gay rally? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />



Sorry, it only took me two years to catch that! Just kidding of course <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cheers2.gif" alt="" />


[Linked Image]
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