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#26083 - Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:06 AM Trinity Doctrine  
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Kathy Offline
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Regarding the Trinity... a man-made doctrine created in 180 AD. Question: what purpose has it served spiritually and historically (intent and fruits) to introduce this man-made explanation/image of a God who is beyond man’s explanation?

Act 17:29 -- Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.


With mankind’s long track record of sinful deceit and poly-theism is the worry that falsity might take root... The approved elders of the early Christian Councils came up with ‘Trinity’ to explain God... When the Bible states ‘The Lord is One’... When Jesus himself states, "He that has seen me, has seen the father" (John 14:9)"

Yet/Still with the grave likelihood that man was standing on seriously shaky ground... with chisel and stone and philosophy, came his need to define the ‘mystery’ of God’s likeness/image... when no one asked him to. You may say this is human nature... Indeed!

To come up with such a ‘doctrine’ is man’s vain attempt to mess with what he should not have messed with. What should be added? (Nothing.) God said so! What possible purpose does this added doctrine serve... but to create the hint of separation between the Father and the Son... and allow for the degeneration of the deity of Jesus.


HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME." Rev. 1:8


“He who denies the Son, does not even have the Father”... This verse can only be realized by way of the Trinity doctrine... open-the-door-a little-bit theory. The additional ‘helpful’ Trinity explantation/image of God allows the basis and support to define the two-covenant Dispensational view, as well. Dispensationalist teaching is contrary to Grace; a further erosion of the Truth. If, rather... we believe Jesus Christ, that He and the Father are one. Period. There is no possibility of making the claim to the Father without knowledge of his Son. (I’m thinking of some amazing statements Dispensationalist and NON-Dispensationalist believers have made... that whether or not the people who wrote them are aware... can only have been written by not comprehending fully Jesus’ own words about himself.)


2Cr 4:6 -- For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.


Act 5:42 -- And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.


You may quote scriptures until Tuesday that speak of the relationship of the ‘God-head’ (a term Paul used.) And I say that is fine... stick with those. Triune and Trinity and ‘Trinity doctrine’ aren’t of the scriptures... They are added. That Paul used the term ‘God-head’... fine. Does that give us the right to make a ‘God-head doctrine?’ and stamp it approved.


You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men." -- Mark 5:8


If you were to ask me if I believe in the doctrine of the Trinity... I will quote Jesus,
"He that has seen me, has seen the father" (John 14:9)"


And why would anyone even ask the question?


Act 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


History and Fruits, and adding a word... Man’s attempt to define ‘God’ by council. Intent. The list goes on . . .

#26084 - Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:56 AM Re: Trinity Doctrine [Re: Kathy]  
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Kathy,

Forgive my dullness of mind, but after reading what you wrote, if in fact you authored the contents of the post, I was left wondering, "What's your point?". Would you be so kind as to explain the intent of your posting this? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/stupidme.gif" alt="" />

I am also curious as to what YOU believe concerning the doctrine of the Trinity. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Linked Image]


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simul iustus et peccator

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#26085 - Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:50 PM Re: Trinity Doctrine [Re: Kathy]  
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Quote
Kathy states:

Regarding the Trinity... a man-made doctrine created in 180 AD. Question: what purpose has it served spiritually and historically (intent and fruits) to introduce this man-made explanation/image of a God who is beyond man’s explanation?


The history of the doctrine of the Trinity tells us that it was developed by the church to guard against error. I believe although that it remains a mystery, we can still formulate a workable doctrine based on what God reveals to us through His Word. This "man-made" doctrine is just like any other doctrine that the church has developed to better explain the truth of Scripture. It is the orthodoxed view of divine Godhead and therefore not up for debate. That is of course your interested in being an orthodoxed Christian. But if you interested in being a Unitarian, an existentialist, JW or any other kind of cult member then you would of course not embrace the truth.

Dave.


Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Galatians 2:16
#26086 - Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:58 PM Re: Trinity Doctrine [Re: Reformation Monk]  
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Kathy Offline
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Pilgrim,

My intent in writing this was to engage your own thoughts, beliefs and understandings, on the question “Who is God?”

I have recently been reading the pros and cons to whether or not the Lord is a Trinity, or even should be defined as such. As well as considering how much the ‘construct’ of a Trinity explanation colors our very words and understanding of something so very important.

Speaking from my own familiarity with the Triangle or the 3 overlapping circles by way of diagram, even to explain what I was told as a child is beyond comprehension... the ‘mystery of the Trinity.’ I listen to my Catholic brother speak of ‘God the Father’ and ‘God the Son’ and ‘God the Holy Spirit.’... and a myriad of other words of others... that represent to each ‘Who is God.’

I’m suggesting of course, that it matters. I’m suggesting that using the word ‘Trinity’ as an explanation of God’s essence has consequences on our view of the Lord-ship of Christ. And even, if... as I’m sure you have pondered the concept of the proper philosophical way to explain the Trinity... it is an ADDED construct/doctrine.

And still... even if you are sure that your view of the God-head does not in anyway diminish your understanding of the deity of Jesus, I’m bringing up the word ‘Trinity’ if it is a word in your vocabulary for your consideration. The word has a history, and allows the setup to get to this statement “He who denies the Son, does not even have the Father.” As I stated previously... the Trinity allows for one to defend the Dispensationalist view. Without the Trinity there couldn’t be a Dispensationalist view. That’s one fruit.

My own belief is that I’m sticking with the Word on ‘who God is.’ And with all of the quotes that might be pulled out to defend EVEN the use of the word, ‘trinity’ as explanation... I’m not going to use it, because Paul didn’t, for one.

For those who believe in the value of the councils and the doctrines of men... over the Word of God, to help better understand God’s lack of a good explanation... well, I can point to a myriad of them... including Vatican II. That may be a ‘can of worms’ statement, but Jesus Christ is the Final Authority, as far as I’m concerned.... and the Holy Spirit in the revealed Word.

So I ask what does the word ‘Trinity’ or the trinity explanation add to this:
"He that has seen me, has seen the father" (John 14:9)"

#26087 - Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:43 PM Re: Trinity Doctrine [Re: Kathy]  
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Quote
Kathy says:
For those who believe in the value of the councils and the doctrines of men... over the Word of God,


Well the last time I checked.... we're all "men" So we "men" are the ones who are interpreting Scripture. When we read God's revealed Word we come to conclusions about what it means. Ummm..... the last time I checked, this is considered "doctrine" So we really can't get away from "man-made" doctrine can we? God gave us His Word for a purpose, this is His plan, so that we might know Him through it.

Dave.


Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Galatians 2:16
#26088 - Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:45 PM Re: Trinity Doctrine [Re: Kathy]  
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Kathy,

Here is the premise upon which the doctrine of the Trinity has been held:
  • There is only one God.
  • There are 3 persons in the Bible; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
  • The 3 persons are all called God.
  • Thus the 3 persons are the One God.

If you would like an ample amount of Scriptural texts which underlie these premises, I'll be more than happy to supply them for you. grin

The official, universally held doctrine of the Trinity is found in the Nicene Creed and Athanasian Creed:


Nicene Creed


I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of his Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried; and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; and he shall come again, with glory, to judge both the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord, and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spake by the Prophets. And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church; I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

AMEN.



The Athanasian Creed


Whoever wills to be in a state of salvation, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic (universal) faith, which except everyone shall have kept whole and undefiled without doubt he will perish eternally.

Now the catholic faith is that we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is One, the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit; the Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated; the father infinite, the Son infinite, and the Holy Spirit infinite; the Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet not three eternals but one eternal, as also not three infinites, nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and one infinite. So, likewise, the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty; and yet not three almighties but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son God, and the Holy Spirit God; and yet not three Gods but one God. So the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; and yet not three Lords but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by Christian truth to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be both God and Lord; so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, there be three Gods or three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made nor created but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and the Son, not made nor created nor begotten but proceeding. So there is one Father not three Fathers, one Son not three Sons, and one Holy Spirit not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity there is nothing before or after, nothing greater or less, but the whole three Persons are coeternal together and coequal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Trinity in Unity and the Unity in Trinity is to be worshipped. He therefore who wills to be in a state of salvation, let him think thus of the Trinity.

But it is necessary to eternal salvation that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. The right faith therefore is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man. He is God of the substance of the Father begotten before the worlds, and He is man of the substance of His mother born in the world; perfect God, perfect man subsisting of a reasoning soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who although He be God and Man yet He is not two but one Christ; one however not by conversion of the Godhead in the flesh, but by taking of the Manhood in God; one altogether not by confusion of substance but by unity of Person. For as the reasoning soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again from the dead, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, from whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life eternal, and they who indeed have done evil into eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith, which except a man shall have believed faithfully and firmly he cannot be in a state of salvation.



In His Grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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#26089 - Tue Jun 21, 2005 3:16 AM Re: Trinity Doctrine [Re: Kathy]  
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Tom Offline
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Kathy

The councils never claim to be equal to the Scriptures (at least not the Protestant councils). In fact in Protestantism, we have been known to say things like, a confession or a creed is only as good as it is biblical.

These confessions and creeds were formed because it became evident that heresy was entering the Church and it became evident that in order to fight this heresy, it became necessary to show exactly what the Scripture teaches.

I ask you, is there something specific in the doctrine of the Trinity itself, that is unbiblical?
If not, what is the problem?

Tom

#26090 - Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:57 AM Re: Trinity Doctrine [Re: Tom]  
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Kathy Offline
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Here is what I want to earnestly say. If I get in my car and drive through town, I am going to pass a dozen or so churches. And, I could spend years pouring over syntax of creeds, doctrines, heresies, inquisitions and history's martyrs over these... as these same disputes over doctrines have been married to agendas and empires all in the name of Christ.

Consider this statement:
“To introduce any sort of separation between the Word and Jesus Christ is contrary to the Christian faith... Jesus is the Incarnate Word — a single and indivisible person...”

Who said it? Pope John Paul II, quoted in the document Dominus Iesis.

Any sort of separation? Like... a Pope? or... a Priest? or... ‘the Catechism’, Vatican II, or... a Magisterium... or a Council?... or a Creed?

What gives me pause... in the most sincere manner is that Jesus said many shall say “Lord, Lord” and he will say “Depart from me... I never knew you.” We are to be seeking and entering in that narrow gate, and are told that few will find it. What a humbling statement. So, I’m seeking Him... by way of his Word that he left for us as bread.

I am struck by this:
2Cr 4:6 -- For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

And I believe that many seek his face and are caught in the snare of their own device and understanding, and that it is only Jesus who reveals his identity to us by the Holy Spirit.

He came in the very image we creatures so highly esteem.... the image of man... the image of us, our ‘selves.’ And then he took on the heap of everything the image of man is due.... and flesh was crucified, and He conquered sin and death for us. In following him, we must lose our self and seek his face.

Rev 19:16
And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

#26091 - Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:08 AM Re: Trinity Doctrine [Re: Kathy]  
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Frankly, Kathy, I've had enough of your cavilling and vagueness. If you have a problem with the doctrine of the Trinity, state the problem itself in a clear and concise manner. Don't toss us junk about how it "goes beyond Scripture," PROVE IT with Scripture. It is not enough in the least to show that there are heretics who agree on one matter of the faith—the demons rightly believe that God is One, and tremble!


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#26092 - Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:43 AM Re: Trinity Doctrine [Re: Kathy]  
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Pilgrim Offline
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Kathy,

I appears that you put no stock in anything that any man has ever said concerning the teachings of Scripture. In short, you elevate yourself above all others in that you are able to discern the truth of God where they have failed. But this is a rather arrogant position to take, don't you think? Has the promise of Christ to send His Holy Spirit to the Church and to indwell all those whom He has brought to spiritual life and reconciled with God failed? If not, then how is it that no one but yourself is reliable in discerning God's truth from the Scriptures? Has the promise of the Holy Spirit of Christ that He "gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:" never actually happened?

There is, of course, a much more fundamental question that needs to be asked here: Do you believe in "true truth . . . propositional truth . . . absolute truth"? And do you believe that God has made known this true truth in His inspired, infallible and inerrant Word; the Scriptures? And do you believe that God makes known this truth to those who He has called, justified and adopted as His sons by giving them His Holy Spirit to dwell within them, giving them ears to hear, eyes to see and minds to comprehend the marvelous things of God revealed in the Scriptures?

The doctrine of the Trinity isn't some philosophical whim that men have fabricated out of their own imaginations. It isn't, as is the case of so many today, an idea that some man conceived in his own mind and then gathered together some biblical texts, twisted them out of context which he then presented allegedly as "proof" of that idea.

One who professes to believe in God, even in general terms needs to know, "Who is God?, What is He/She/It like? Does/has God communicated to man? If so, how has God done this? And can that communication be comprehended by man? etc." These questions are answered in the Bible. And the answer to the question as to Who is God? is that He is one being Who exists in three persons. Should someone reject this truth, on what grounds is it rejected? and on a more practical level, why should I believe your view more than my own or anyone else's who are far more knowledgeable of the Scriptures and the history of how the Spirit has guided His people for over 5 millennia? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" />

Perhaps this article: Creeds and Standards: Their Significance and Functions, by G.H. Hospers will help you understand the legitimacy of the subordinate confessions of the Church.

In His Grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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#26093 - Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:55 PM Re: Trinity Doctrine [Re: Kathy]  
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Tom Offline
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Kathy

Consider very carefully what Pilgrim said in reply to you.
The word "Trinity" may be a made up word that is not found in the Bible. However, the doctrine (teaching) of the Trinity is found throughout Scripture, it is NOT a man made doctrine.

If you disagree with that, please say so and show proof from the Bible itself.
The doctrine of the Trinity is absolutely essential to the Christian faith.

By the way, if you are frustrated with our replies to you. It is probably because up until this point you have been quite vague and we have had to guess as to what your point is.
I am not even sure if your problem is with the actual doctrine of the Trinity itself, or the word Trinity itself.
If the later, I must say that I know of no true Church denomination that would agree with you.

Tom

#26094 - Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:42 PM Re: Trinity Doctrine [Re: Kathy]  
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Quote
And I believe that many seek his face and are caught in the snare of their own device and understanding, and that it is only Jesus who reveals his identity to us by the Holy Spirit.

He came in the very image we creatures so highly esteem.... the image of man... the image of us, our ‘selves.’ And then he took on the heap of everything the image of man is due.... and flesh was crucified, and He conquered sin and death for us. In following him, we must lose our self and seek his face.

Rev 19:16
And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.


I'm sorry, but what IS the question here? Kathy, it seems as though your questions about the Trinity morph into a statement about seeking His (Jesus') face. And if it's His face you seek then only conclusion that can be drawn from this is, as your quote of the verse in Revelations states, that He IS King of Kings and Lord of Lords which makes Jesus the very God that we worship. Now if that is the case, and it is, then how else would you explain the relationship between the Father and Son? Then add in the Holy Spirit, who in Scripture, cannot be blasphemed, lied to or sinned against or grieved; moreover, it is the Holy Spirit that opens the "eyes" of the unregenerate to become regenerate. And if "Salvation is of the Lord" (it begins, continues and ends with Him), then how do we reconcile the Holy Spirit, the Son and the Father? As others have stated and as has been understand through the history of the church this is defined as the doctrine of the Trinity. If the relationship between the three is not understood in these terms then one would have to conclude there are three distinct persons who are worshipped distinctly, making three Deities...right? But that would be wrong because the Lord our God is one God and there is/are no others.

It is interesting that when we can't wrap our minds around something, especially as important as belief in the TRUTH of God's word, that we reject it. How dangerous this is...I will admit openly that I may not understand quite a few things fully, but that doesn't negate the truth of the Word. And my prayer is "conform my self and my mind to Your truth...and PLEASE do not leave me in my own understanding."

God help us.


tj
"-that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection..."
#26095 - Tue Jun 21, 2005 5:47 PM Re: Trinity Doctrine [Re: thredj]  
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Kathy Offline
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Thredj and all,

I apologize for bringing up this topic... but I have to say why I did. I am not going for arrogance as desired result... Nor do I discount the work of the Holy Spirit throughout believers.

As a former Catholic, I don’t hold organized religion in high regard. And the most profound work of the Holy Spirit, among believers, in history has always been getting nearer to the actual Gospel... and organized religion always manages to do the opposite.

I disagree that it is not consider-worthy to look at the history of such a doctrine. That it was added. I disagree in adding the word ‘trinity’ into the mix, because it is not in the bible. But my real focus is its interpretation... I think that would be the Catholic Church’s take on it, too. And for one, I don’t think that the Catholicism has done a very good job with it... and I don't mean by way of reading the Apostle's Creed; I mean by way of how it is nearly impossible to find the basic message of Salvation under her wing.

As I’ve read the apologetics on both sides of yes / no to the Trinity doctrine. There are people on both sides essentially saying the very same thing... and people who reject it saying that Jesus isn’t God... and that gets back to interpretation... which must be my focus. I apologize if this thread has angered some of you; that was not my intent.

When you stated:
it seems as though your questions about the Trinity morph into a statement about seeking His (Jesus') face

When it comes to the question ‘who is God’ ... isn’t that the whole point of discussing whether or not God is one? or three in one? ...in seeking His face?


Here are some comments/scripture:

Job 38:28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?

Concerning Father Son and Holy Ghost, there is only one "manifestation" of God, that is Jesus as He was God "Manifest" in the flesh (I Timothy 3:16), and He was "Manifested" to take away our sins (I John 3:5).

Trinity: Not in the Bible
God the Son, God the Holy Ghost: Not in the scripture
Three in one: Bible says these three ARE ONE, not in one.
--I John 5:7

Glorious mystery: Mystery explained I Timothy 3:16.

Jesus said "I and my Father are ONE" (John 10:30).

God is a Spirit (John 4)
Now the Lord is that Spirit (II Corinthians 3:17).

Jesus said "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father (John 14).


Worship:

Holy holy holy
merciful and mighty
God in three persons
blessed Trinity


IAct 7:59
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

SAUL’S CONVERSION
Acts 9:5 And he said, "Who are You, Lord?"
Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads."

Whom shall we worship? In John 4:21-24, Jesus taught that the sole object of worship is the father. If God were a trinity why would he deny worship to the other two divine persons?

Jhn 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

Jhn 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

SHAKY GROUND

The word ‘trinity’ is not in the bible
The Lord insisted that He is One. “I am that I am”
The LORD our God is one LORD (Deuteronomy 6:4)
Comparisons with pagan trinities that exist in other cultures
Christian art / portrayals represent that the Christian God is not one.
--and calls for condemnation by scripture
Christian trinity symbols (linked circles, triangle) are occult based

#26096 - Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:23 PM Re: Trinity Doctrine [Re: Kathy]  
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Pilgrim Offline
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Kathy,

I openly offered to supply you with Scripture to show that there are 3 persons, each of whom is called "God", yet despite the fact that you have no use for "man-made creeds or confessions" and confess to submit only to Scripture, you haven't asked for any?

Here's a marvelous biblical argument for the doctrine of Trinity: The Divine Trinity, by Herman Bavinck

And here are but a few of the myriad texts which teach the doctrine of the Trinity:


Heb 1:6 'And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.'

Compare this text with:

Deut 6:13 'Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.'

Luke 4:8 'And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan:for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.'

Isa 42:8 'I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.'

If Jesus Christ was not GOD incarnate, then why would God the Father command the angels to worship Him? But the text in Heb 1:8 clearly shows that God calls Jesus Christ God!

How about another example from Scripture, not what you called 'man-made' stuff which has no authority!

Isa 43:10 'Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.'

Isa 44:6 'Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.'

Pretty clear right? There is no God other than God Himself who is the 'first and the last'!

Okay, let's jump to the NT....

Rev 1:8 'I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.'

Pretty clear here, that this is God speaking......

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.'

Again this is the same person who has identified himself and the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last! Which we know is God Almighty, the ONLY God.

Moving on in the same chapter......

Rev 1:17 'And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.'

Again the speaker identifies himself as 'the first and the last', but now adds a bit more information as to his identity, 'I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.'

Just who is that? Who was dead, and is alive forever? And Who has the keys of hell and death?

At the end of this book of Revelation, we find the definitive answer: Rev 21:5 'And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.'

Again we have here a clear reference to God Almighty sitting upon His throne and using this identifying phrase 'Alpha and Omega, beginning and end.'

Now let's look a bit further;

Rev 22:12 'And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.'

The One who 'comes quickly' identifies himself as the 'Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and last.'

And in Verse 16 He speaker names Himself:

Rev 22:16 'I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.'

Jesus Christ is identified as the 'Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.' But these titles belong to the ONE GOD! Thus Jesus Christ IS the One God.

Compare these references to each other and you will see that Jesus Christ is GOD incarnate and of the same substance and essence with the Father.

God is Coming: Zech 14:4,5; 1Thess 4:13-18; Rev 19:11,16
Jesus is Coming: 1Thess 3:11-13; Matt 25:31-46; Tit 2:11-13

God the Rock: Deut 32:1-4; 22:13,22, Ps 18:2; 31:3; Is 17:10
Jesus the Rock: Matt 16:17:19; Is 28:16; Acts 4:11,12; 1Cor 10:4; Num 20:1-11; Eph 2:20-22; 1Pet 2:6-8

God the First and Last: Is 41:4; 43:10,11; 44:6,8
Jesus the First and Last: Rev 1:17; 22:13

God the King: Ps 44:4; Is 43:10-15; Jer 10:10; Zech 14:9
Jesus the King: Matt 2:1-6; Lk 19:32-35; 22:3; Joh 18:37; 19:21; 1Tim 6:13-16; Rev 15:1-4; 19:11-16

God the Shepherd: Ps 23; Is 40:10,11; Ps 100
Jesus the Shepherd: Jh 10:8-12; Heb 13:20; 1Pet 2:21-25; 5:4

God the Redeemer and Saviour: Ps 78:34,35; 106;21 Is 43:3-11; 44:6;45:21; 47:4; 49:26; Luk 1:46,47
Jesus Redeemer and Saviour: 1Jh 4:14; 1Pet 2:21-24: Acts 20:28; Gal 3:13;Joh 4:40-42; Php 3:20

God the Creator: Gen 1:1; 2:7; Job 33:4; Ps 33:6; 104:30; Is 40:28;45:11-18; Mal 2:10
Jesus the Creator: Joh 1:10; 1Cor 8:6; Eph 2:9; Col 1:12-17; Heb 1:8-12

In regard to the Holy Spirit being a person Who is God:

Acts 5:3 "But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land? While it remained, did it not remain thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power? How is it that thou hast conceived this thing in thy heart? thou has not lied unto men, but unto God."

One cannot lie to a dog or a house or a building. A lie can only be told to a rational being. Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit; to God!

Acts 13:2, 4 "And as they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. So they, being sent forth by the Holy Spirit, went down to Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus."

Only rational persons speak and make commands upon others, which the text clearly says the Holy Spirit did.

Acts 28:25 "And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed after that Paul had spoken one word, [b]Well spake the Holy Spirit[b] through Isaiah the prophet unto your fathers,"

Once again, it is said that the Holy Spirit spoke, albeit through the instrumentality of a man; Isaiah the prophet.

[color:"blue"]There is only ONE GOD! And there are 3 persons! The Father, and He is called God; the Son and He is called God, and the Holy Spirit and He is called God! Therefore the 3 persons ARE THE ONE GOD![/color]


In His Grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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#26097 - Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:30 PM Re: Trinity Doctrine [Re: Kathy]  
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 418
Paul_S Offline
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Paul_S  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 418
The Bronx, NY
Kathy,

Quote
I disagree in adding the word ‘trinity’ into the mix, because it is not in the bible.

The ability of man to create terms--words--to represent reality was given by God to Adam as one aspect of his image, and that ability continues to be properly used today, especially when a shorter term is invested with the meaning of a much longer series of terms. If the meaning invested in the shorter term is faithful to the truth of the Word of God, the shorter term may be said to be true, otherwise not; yet the use of the shorter term in place of the longer is still valid.

So the term "purgatory" may condense the concept of "the time and place of purifying discipline for the blessed dead before their entrance into the glory of heaven"; since the concept itself is unscriptural, we must say that the short form is unscriptural as well; but that does not mean we cannot use the abbreviation when talking about the subject.

Similary, "trinity" is simply a shorthand for several essential truths about the God Who Is. Others have elucidated those truths to you, and shown beyond doubt that they are scriptural. Therefore the term may be safely used to describe that family of doctrines.

Do you realize that you yourself have engaged in the very practice you decry--that of using a "non-biblical word" to summarize biblical truth--here already? You wrote several diatribes on the "Noahide Laws", although those words never appear in the Bible! And even more curiously, in the above quote, you refer to "the bible". Can you please show me where those very words occur, in your Bible?

Unless you are able to do so, you need to reconsider the appropriateness of meaning-invested terms--as "Trinity"--in discussion about essential doctrines of the faith, or else refrain from using shorthand terms yourself.

Quote
how it is nearly impossible to find the basic message of Salvation under her wing.

Now you're on much more solid ground; in fact I'm sure nearly everyone here would agree it is totally impossible to do so without deviating from some of her core teachings. The trouble in this instance is, that Rome's teachings on simply "the Trinity" have been much more faithful to their scriptural roots than her teachings on Salvation; so in our rejection of the one with its flagrant and deceptive twisting of truth, we don't want to reject other truths which she retained.

Please consider the Pharisees. Jesus tore their lack of faith, their accretions to the law, their self-righteousness, to shreds in his various rebukes; but he still commanded the people to obey them when they taught the true law of Moses (Matthew 23:2). One must be discerning to not reject all doctrine of a particular group, even "children of the devil", without testing it against the Word and keeping what is good, rejecting what is evil. So it is necessary to see that although Rome's message of "Salvation" is fundamentally flawed, the Trinitarian doctrines are themselves sound and essential.


In Christ,
Paul S
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