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#26128 - Sun Jun 26, 2005 9:04 AM Re: Trinity Doctrine [Re: Paul_S]  
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Kathy Offline
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Paul, I feel misunderstood, as to what you believe is what I am about. I posting this regarding the Trinity... what I'm coming up with, since words are what we have.

Since logging on, I'm pasting what you've written... to read... so, I'm not responding here to your comments.


God who always was,


IS HOLY SPIRIT that proceeds and exists


has with him the Word,


which IS his Word.
words express/create/proceed EXIST... are Spoken


And the Word OF God.... proceeds and exists... IS HOLY


Once asked His name... He said 'I AM'


The Word (of God) always existed and proceeds


The Word spoken/breathed is HOLY SPIRIT


The Word spoken/breathed is CREATOR


The Spoken Word of God became flesh and dwelt among us
became manifest as the Son of God... fully GOD in mere human form


and we learned His name.... JESUS


So that we may KNOW what we didn't know through the ages


HOW we are to know the HOLY SPIRIT of GOD who once said his name is 'I AM'


the answer made manifest... by his Word made manifest


known as 'the Son of God'... Jesus Christ, the Word of God


by HIS WORD... which He Sent to us in the form of flesh


Spoke to us and returned to the Father


The NAME of the Word who always was... IS Jesus
became known/manifest to man


that we may know HIM


Returned to the Father


the Word incarnate Jesus Christ


the Spoken Word of Almighty God


IS HOLY


IS JESUS CHRIST


HE SENT US HIS WORD


WHICH IS HOLY


THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD

#26129 - Sun Jun 26, 2005 1:47 PM Re: Trinity Doctrine  
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This was in response to Kathy saying that her source of ultimate authority was Christ and the Holy Spirit. She mentioned nothing about the sufficiency of Scripture and the doctrine of sola Scriptura. So, I was trying to probe further.

I agree with you that we are able to formulate a doctrine such as the Trinity using the text of Scripture. I also have absolutely nothing against confessions.


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
#26130 - Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:36 PM Re: Trinity Doctrine [Re: Kathy]  
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Kathy,

I'm sorry, but what you just said makes no sense to me. Have you read any of the articles we posted on the Biblical evidence for the Trinity? It appears you are leaning on your own understanding rather than truly seeking to know what God has said plainly in His Bible. I think Paul_S had a wonderful post that showed the folly of your seeking to find a secret plot or a hidden bias behind every bush. I am going to let God be God and every man a liar. What about you? I am going to study God's Word and see what it says concerning the world, not base my life on conspiracy theories.

So, I'll ask this one question: Have you honestly ever done a Bible study on the Trinity? The doctrine of the Trinity is clearly taught in it. I am grateful that I don't have to go and formulate such a doctrine from scratch, but I am grateful that it is taken from Scripture and that it is clearly revealed therein.


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
#26131 - Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:18 PM Re: Trinity Doctrine [Re: MarieP]  
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SemperReformda,

To answer you... I have been reading different writings/beliefs on the Trinity Doctrine/interpretation... recently... as I am just trying to make sense of what has been so disputed and misunderstood. I need to know.

What I posted to Paul... was this mornings thoughts that are at very best ‘loose’ -- and I am still working on it. I want to do this from Scripture... with scripture.. pretending there is not a doctrine... but I am not ruling out reading and being influenced by what others have written and taught.


What I put together, was coming from these verses

I John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and THESE THREE ARE ONE.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made.

#26132 - Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:26 PM Re: Trinity Doctrine [Re: Paul_S]  
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Paul,

I won’t go further concerning the Talmudic laws. The topic is intertwined in my world view and spiritual view. (Of course it is; you knew I’d say that.) And Jesus Christ, and His Cross, and his Wisdom over the wisdom of Solomon. And why Jesus said, “Consider the lilies”... and it is the lilies that outshine King Solomon. And it has to do with the measure of Solomon’s gold... mentioned twice in scripture... as being the weight of his ‘wisdom’ (lower case) likened to a fool and his money counting his gold. And it has to do with the fact that the Lord said to the daughters of Jerusalem that they would accept one who comes in his own name vs. the one who came in the name of the Lord. It also has to do with the Parable of the Landowners in Matthew 24. And that Jesus told us why he spoke in Parables... as some would understand, and others won't. I want you to understand... maybe not today. But I do feel strongly convicted... (about Jacob and Esau, too.) "yeah, right." None of this means anything to you, but it does to me, in Faith.

-Kathy

#26133 - Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:56 PM Re: Trinity Doctrine [Re: Kathy]  
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Quote
Kathy said:

..... I feel misunderstood, as to what you believe is what I am about. I posting this regarding the Trinity... what I'm coming up with, since words are what we have.


Kathy,

I've been reading some of your questions and comments on the topic of the Trinity and come away quite purplexed by your method of hermanuetics. Actually some of what you've written has little relevance to the topic which makes it confusing for us who read your thoughts to try to understand what you are really talking about. Perhaps you will find these theological notes in my New Geneva Study Bible helpful.


Quote
One and Three: The Trinity

The Old Testament constantly insists that there is only one God, the self-revealed Creator, who must be worshiped and loved exclusively. (Deuteronomy 6:4,5; Isaiah 44:6 - 45:25). The New Testament agrees, (Mark 12:29-30; I Corinthians 8:4; Ephesians 4:6; I Timothy 2:5), but speaks of three personal agents, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit working together to bring about salvation (Romans 8; Ephesians 1:3-14; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; 1 Peter 1:2). The historic formulation of the Trinity (from the Latin word trinitas, meaning "threeness") is not an attempt to explain it; that would be beyond us. It does provide a boundary and safeguard for our thoughts about the mystery, which confronts us with perhaps the most difficult thought that the human mind can know. It is not easy; but it is true.

The doctrine springs from the historical facts of redemption recorded and explained in the New Testament. Jesus prayed to the Father and taught His disciples to do the same. Yet He convinced them that He was personally divine. Belief in His diviity and in the rightness of offering Him worship and prayers is basic to New Testament faith (John 20:28-31; cf. 1:1-18; Acts 7:59; Romans 9:5; 10:9-13; 2 Corinthians 12:7-9; Philippians 2:5-6; Colossians 1:15-17; 2:9; Hebrews 1:1-12; I Peter 3:15). Jesus promised to send "another Helper" or "Paraclete" (from the Greek). A "Paraclete" is an advocate, helper. ally, and supporter (John 14:26; 15:26-27; 16:7-15). The promised Helper was the Holy Spirit, who came at Pentecost to fulfill His ministry. From the start He was recognized as the third divine Person; to lie to Him, said Peter not long after Pentecost, is to lie to God (Acts 5:3-4).

Christ prescribed baptism "in the name (singular: one God, one name) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" - three Persons who are the one God whom Christians commit themselves (Matt. 28:19). So we meet the three Persons in the account of Jesus' own baptism: the Father acknowledged the Son, and the Spirit showed His presence in the Son's life and ministry (Mark 9:9-11). The blessing of 2 Corinthians 13:14 is trinitarian, as is the prayer for grace and peace from the Father, the Spirit, and Jesus Christ in Rev. 1;4-5. John includes the Spirit between the Father and the Son only because he teaches that the Spirit is divine in the very same sense as are the Father and the Son. These are some of the more stiking examples of trinitarian teaching in the New Testament. Though the technical language of later theology is not found there, the trinitarian faith and thinking are present in all its pages. In this sense the Trinity is a biblical doctrine.

Basically the doctrine is that the unity of the one God is complex. The three personal "substances" (as they are called) are coequal and coeternal centers of self-awareness, each being "I" in relation to two who are "You" and each having the full divine essence of God, the specific existence that belongs to God alone. God is not one person who plays three seperate roles; this is the error called "modalism." Nor are there three gods who only seem to be one because they always act together; this is trithism." The theologian B. B. Warfield put it simply: "when we have said these three things, then--that there is but one God, that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is each God, a distinct person - we have enunciated the doctrine of the Trinity in its completeness." This summarizes what was revealed through the words and works of Jesus, and is the reality underlying the salvation of the New Testament.

Practically speaking, the doctrine of the Trinity requires us to give equal honor to each of the three Persons in the unity of the one God. More over, knowing the doctrine establishes personal faith no less that it enriches a healthy sense of unity with other Christians.


"Trinity" is a term that is not found in the Bible but a word used to describe what is apparent about God in the Scriptures. The Bible clearly speaks of God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit...and also clearly presents that there is only one God. Thus the term: "Tri" meaning three, and "Unity" meaning one, Tri+Unity = Trinity. It is a way of acknowledging what the Bible reveals to us about God, that God is yet three "Persons" who have the same essence of deity.

God the Son (Jesus) is fully, completely God. God the Father is fully, completely God. And God the Holy Spirit is fully, completely God. Yet there is only one God.


Wes

#26134 - Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:04 PM Re: Trinity Doctrine [Re: Kathy]  
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Quote
I John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and THESE THREE ARE ONE.


The earliest and best manuscripts actually do not have this. Modern translations reflect this:

NASB:

7 For there are three that testify:
8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

ASV:
7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.
8 For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.

ESV:
7 For there are three that testify:
8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
#26135 - Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:06 PM Re: Trinity Doctrine [Re: Kathy]  
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Kathy,

Are you either a postmodernist or a gnostic?


True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
#26136 - Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:30 PM Re: Trinity Doctrine [Re: Kathy]  
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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...

Kathy

Just in case you missed my last post in this thread (Friday), I answered your 5 points.

I am interested in what you think.

Tom

#26137 - Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:51 AM Re: Trinity Doctrine [Re: thredj]  
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Kathy,
As I have tried to read and hear your issue, it seems that for whatever reason, you have come to believe something akin to what the Jehovah's Witness teach. I do not mean to accuse you of trying to use the "Witness" propoganda with this group, I am only trying to get a handle on what doctrine(s) you seem to hold because they are not Christian.
WHAT IS A DOCTRINE? A doctrine is first an observation. Scripture REVEALS truth to us and we begin to systematically relate the parts to the whole. In reading scripture, we want to be able to understand it as an unbroken fabric of revelation instead of discordant threads of thought. The result is a formulation of doctrine that expresses the teachings of scripture in the language of men in order that the mind of man may grasp the concept presented.
REGARDING THE TRINITY. Since we both acknowledge there is a God and He is divine, that leaves us in question of only two members of the Godhead and their relationship to the first member. Jesus clearly associated the Spirit with Himself in John 14-16. Elsewhere it is even called, "The Spirit of Christ". Without writing pages here to prove it, I will make the logical jump that you have already been able to make that association from Scripture for yourself. The difficulty comes in associating those two to the first.
THE INCARNATION: is the first place we are able to clearly see that Jesus was something other than simple man, nor was he ever alleged to be an angel, and he certainly was more than a prophet. That means the traditional catagories are not suffecient for us to understand how to relate Christ to the Father. Old Testament prophecy certainly aided us in understanding that one would come to take on the sins of the world and reconcile all people to God. That one was the 2nd Adam. Scripture clearly teaches however that no man could ever be suffecient to qualify for the role of mediator unless he was perfect. Since only God is perfect, a natural assumption must be made regarding the nature of Christ.
The question that must come back to you is, "Why would you refuse God to act in this way? That is, to manifest Himself in the flesh, taking on the appearance of Man, in order to accomplish His will. Certainly, if He is to be God, this must be within His power to do?? How can we limit God in His relationship to Himself when we even acknowledge that we have more than one componant or deminsion to ourselves. We have a moral conscience that often is in conflict with our volitional will. If those two componants were perfected in us, would one cease to exist or would we still have a conscience and a will but in perfect harmony with one another? Why can't God have something akin to this only in a much more complex and perfected state? Then again, this may only be an analogy but I find it helpful when allowing for the possibility that God is at least as much as a man and we know, He is certainly much more.

For those reading this besides Kathy, don't be alarmed. I understand your explainations of the Trinity and I am in agreement with the creeds. This is not a full explaination of my understanding but if Kathy is genuinely seeking to understand the Trinity, it seems necessary to drop back and explain it from "scratch".
Blessings,
Michael Cannon

#26138 - Fri Jul 01, 2005 12:01 AM Re: Trinity Doctrine [Re: Kathy]  
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Dear Paul, Pilgrim, Semper, and others who replied to me:


I’ve been staying away from reading/replying on this thread (that I started) as it is hard for the part of me that prefers being ‘comfortable’ over feeling at times affronted, odd-one out, misunderstood, etc.

I do not wish to ignore your responses nor the time you’ve invested...I took a break.

This said, not to exclude valuable scripture verses, etc. and Trinitarian support presented.

Concerning ‘comfortable,’ which is the opposite of what is important... I want to say this.

To Paul’s question: “Is it possible that you yourself are deceived, etc” ABSOLUTELY. Do I, have I asked this? Yes! This question and a multitude of others, are on my mind, and have been. Deceived from without... Deceived from WITHIN! And that is why I question assumptions.

What I did wrong... I posted a ‘Proclamation.’ (And a contrary one at that... In a contrary way... which I wasn’t considering.) It shouldn’t have even been a post... it was foggy brewing angst.

The very things I feel Convicted to bring up to here are what’s NOT said... For that reason alone... I’m only finishing and sticking to THIS one here “Trinity.”

Regarding the Trinity doctrine... Where I agreed with Pilgrim... “I believe what you believe” (and at that time) it is more that I agree with what he posted (the Way I HEAR it) Up Until ‘3 Persons.’ GOD IS ONE... Yes, He’s One. I don’t HEAR that the Same way, if you say ‘3 persons.’ I do not. I might even read the Nicean Creed (but I don’t want to) and not READ it the same way as you do.

Recently, I have met others at least a few months ahead of me... sifting through the same PARADOX “Not 3 Gods... but a (group) that equals 1”... “somehow.” SUCH A CONSTRUCT... utterly destroys what is meant by ‘KNOWING’ Who God Really IS. Thus Salvation is a DELUSION... This Uncomfortable and Insulting statement was made to me... And I had to consider if my faith/belief/construct could possibly be wrong... If not, Why not... OR if THEY were wrong. (By the way, I am not ‘One-ness’ JW, nor Pentecostal, Gnostic, Mormon) There is only One Truth. IF you don’t KNOW that Jesus Christ IS GOD. Period. The very same as ‘I AM.’ THIS IS WHY I POSTED... Why does TRADITION insist I split God into 3 Persons (an UNBIBLICAL description ‘persons’... then leave me with the impossible task to Pretend they are One?) This is NOT Scripture’s doing. This is Man’s. And there is a Long/dark history behind it... known as Babylon. Whatever you think of me... I don’t care. Because I don’t want that to be my focus. I have a lot to learn. I am being shown much wisdom, from others in the Church... (the one without walls)... and believe the Lord has led me to them... and I was searching for them for fellowship, which I crave. After much SOLA searching, frustration and prayer. An apologist on Scripture... I am NOT... (and neither are they... ‘theologians.’) I am trusting the Holy Spirit to answer ALL questions... through the Word... and the Word in others. Something you refer to and espouse ‘SOLA SCRIPTURE’... the difference being... this... Plus...” If sanctioned by Proper/Approved Traditional Consensus.” For any of us who pay attention to how wrong Tradition has been... It always ends up Leavened... just a little equals a lot... I take that as “Proceed with Prayer and Caution because only Jesus Christ can hunt out that leaven.” I’m not saying I believe there is no truth to be found in Organized Churches... but there is always leaven. The Word of God says so. It’s our duty to submit and listen... find and eat that bread ourselves... seek fellowship, but not rely solely on others to spoon-feed us their bread.... I believe leaven serves a purpose then... to teach us THAT lesson. To trust Jesus Christ entirely and wholly for our bread and salvation... wherever we are – in a Church with walls or not.

Who said here to me “God is not the author of confusion” ? Pilgrim? I can’t remember. (I am sorry.) That verse had tremendous impact... And though you think that I don’t or haven’t listened, and comments here have bounced off of me... that isn’t true. But at a certain point... as one just too ‘out there’ I kept away. Likely, I’ll rather read/lurk occasionally.

In scouring the internet reading articles, positions, etc. on the subject of the Trinity... I came across a great read.... (remembering God is not the author of confusion.) The author of the article is BI-Nitarian!... I didn’t expect to see that one added to the list. STILL the article I recommend. http://www.bethelcog.org/CG_TrinityNature.html

Upon looking at such an article, the history, the statements, the confusion, schisms... and the pagan philosophy, etc. And KNOWING there are at least a thousand ? articles like this one... HOW can one not wonder IF Knowing Who God Is... should not be left to the Holy Spirit in the Word?

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Here are some verses

John 1:14 - "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Collosians 2:9 - "For in him dwelleth ALL the FULNESS of the GODHEAD BODILY"

Hebrews 5:5 – “So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

Hebrews 9:15 – “How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

John 8:58 – “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am”

******“Son of God”... only because of his TEMPORAL humanity. He, Jesus, IS GOD.********

Isaiah 9:6 - "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name SHALL BE CALLED Wonderful, Counsellor, THE mighty GOD, The everlasting FATHER, The Prince of Peace."

John 8:27-28 - "They understood NOT that he spake to them of THE FATHER. Then said Jesus unto them, when ye have LIFTED UP THE SON OF MAN, then shall ye KNOW that I AM HE (Father)...".

John 14:3 – “And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the FATHER may be glorified IN THE SON.”

Jhn 14:7 - If ye HAD KNOWN ME, ye SHOULD HAVE KNOWN MY FATHER also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Jhn 14:8 - Philip saith unto him, Lord, SHEW US THE FATHER, and it sufficeth us.

Jhn 14:9 - Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and YET HAS THOU NOT KNOWN ME, Philip? he that HATH SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and HOW SAYEST THOU [then], SHEW US THE FATHER?

Jhn 14:13 - And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that THE FATHER MAY BE GLORIFIED IN THE SON.

I Corinthians 12:13 -- For by ONE SPIRIT are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink INTO ONE SPIRIT

Ephisians 4:4 “[There is] one body, and ONE SPIRIT, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;”

*********The following I received from a brother in Christ: *********

When we see "we" or "our" or "us" in the Bible translation, that by all means is NOT proof of the separation of persons! Here is an example verse:

John 14:23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and WE WILL COME unto him, and make OUR ABODE with him."
It is the translation of verses like this that introduce a lot of confusion, "WE WILL COME" suggests more than one person. BUT if you look at the original Hebrew, that entire phrase with 'WE' in it is Strong's 2064 - "erchomai". And that phrase is NOT necessarily plural, here's the definition:

a) to come into being, arise, come forth, show itself, find place or influence
b) be established, become known, to come (fall) into or unto
So “we" was inserted by the KJ translation. In Hebrew, It is not plural or singular. Who gave KJ the authority to put that 'we' in there? He was inspired by God? I don’t think so, of course he will add 'we' in there, since he was indoctrinated into this trinity.
ALSO, the “WITHs” require scrutiny... the Source and original language of (below)
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was ‘WITH’ God, and the Word was God.
WITH... Strong's 4314 = "pros"

1) to the advantage of
2) at, near, by
3) to, towards, with, with regard to
WITH... Thayer's Lexicon:

to, toward, denoting direction towards a thing, or position and state.
-
Vs. Strong's 1722 "en"

1) in, by, with, etc.

#26139 - Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:56 AM Re: Trinity Doctrine [Re: Kathy]  
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Quote
When we see "we" or "our" or "us" in the Bible translation, that by all means is NOT proof of the separation of persons! Here is an example verse:

John 14:23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and WE WILL COME unto him, and make OUR ABODE with him."

It is the translation of verses like this that introduce a lot of confusion, "WE WILL COME" suggests more than one person. BUT if you look at the original Hebrew, that entire phrase with 'WE' in it is Strong's 2064 - "erchomai".

First, this has to do with the Greek, not the Hebrew. Second, the study of Greek consists of MUCH more than looking up a word in Strong or Thesaurus, etc. Words in Greek (and I may add many other languages, Hebrew, Aramaic, etc.) are translated also according to CONTEXT. Third, if we look at the CONTEXT we see that ALL THREE persons of the Trinity are being discussed in John 14; The Father (vs. 8-10, 21, 23, 26, 29, 31, etc.); The Son (vs. 6, 8-11, 15, etc.); and the Holy Spirit (vs. 16-17, 26, etc.). Moreover, in the verse itself it speaks of Christ and the Father—plural, not singular. Lastly, the verbs in question are the indicative future middle 1st person plural of erchomai, translated WE … and the indicative future middle 1st person plural of poiew, translated OUR … BOTH verbs are PLURAL, not singular, and should be translated accordingly as per the rules of Greek grammar (please review: A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature; Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament; New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries; The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament; An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon; Dictionary of Biblical Languages With Semantic Domains; The Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament; A Greek-English Lexicon; A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, Third Edition; A Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint, Revised Edition; Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament Based on Semantic Domains; Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics; and Basics of Biblical Greek, etc. on the matter).

The CONTEXT speaks of a WE and OUR and not a singular context. Basically what we are seeing here (John 14) is the connection that Jesus can say that the presence of the Holy Spirit is interchangeable with that of the Father and the Son. The coming of the Holy Spirit is, in effect, the coming of the entire Trinity (Robert Letham, The Holy Trinity). Christ is espousing the doctrine of the Trinity for those who are alive (in Him) to perceive it.

To deny the Trinity or any part thereof is to deny Christ and to proclaim you are not a Christian. To not fully understand it is one thing (for it is indeed a mystery), but to deny it is unbelief, heretical, etc.! Before you come to ANY conclusions, please read the book above. Hopefully it will assist you with an accurate account of the debate that has concerned the Trinity and it will further your beliefs to a solid Christian foundation.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
#26140 - Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:51 PM Re: Trinity Doctrine [Re: J_Edwards]  
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Kathy  Offline
Journeyman

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 81
Chicago
Dear J Edwards,


You wrote:
To deny the Trinity or any part thereof is to deny Christ and to proclaim you are not a Christian. THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING (?)... that to believe the Fullness/unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit IS in Jesus Christ... and my belief THAT in JESUS, we Know the Father... (only through Christ Jesus.) BECAUSE in so realizing the Father IS Exalted IN the Son... (Father) Revealed IN/Through His SON. YOU ARE SAYING: That this statement denies Jesus Christ?

Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HATH SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and HOW SAYEST THOU [then], SHEW US THE FATHER?


I am not denying Father/Son-Jesus/Holy Spirit. I believe this is a relationship in UNITY by REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST... and Revealed (ONLY) by and through Jesus Christ to man... BORN ANEW of the ONE SPIRIT in Jesus, Our God and Our Lord and Saviour

BUT THEN... You say this “The coming of the Holy Spirit is, in effect, the coming of the ENTIRE TRINITY”... well here... though I don’t use the UNBIBLICAL term ‘Trinity’... I BELIEVE AND AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY! (Which of the 3 separate persons speaks to us, and comforts us?)

What I am saying is the Father/Son/Spirit ARE ONE. Saying “3 separate persons” (but one) is not SPIRITUAL Truth. Yes, Jesus Christ is the only Mediator between God and Man... and no man comes to the Father but through HIM (Jesus)... But to conclude the following with such a statement delegates Jesus to messenger: “Pray to Jesus... then He delivers the prayer to the Father.” and then... Jesus and/or the Father sends the Holy Spirit... WHEN YOU ALREADY STATED the ‘Trinity’ is entirely within the Holy Spirit. How then is the Holy Spirit a SEPARATE ‘person’ ?

SPIRITUALLY DEDUCING that JESUS Christ is messenger (“but I mean really God”) IS ANTI-CHRIST. THIS denies the deity of Jesus. Consider your statement to me “To deny the Trinity (3 Separate persons... as separate... but we mean one) is to deny Jesus Christ”.... I ask you: Is it EVEN Possible to Consider Jesus Christ TOO IMPORTANT in the Godhead? Is THIS blasphemy? In the beginning was the Word. That HE said “How sayest thou, Shew us the Father” and believe HIS WORD? That God planned that the FATHER be GLORIFIED IN THE SON! (Is the 1st person of this ‘Trinity –group-but-one’ jealous that I glorify the Father in the 2nd person, ‘the Son’ ?) When it was God’s good pleasure to set it up as such? Set it up, meaning that the FATHER be EXALTED IN THE SON.

From your statement alone about the Fullness of the ‘Trinity’ in the Holy Spirit... I can’t help but wonder if you spiritually discern the Trinity as I do when I say ‘ONE.’ But I don’t want to falsely assume. The spiritual/discernment/belief in what the Trinity means, among individuals must vary. But the majority – of what I have read... Speak of 3 separate persons (meaning identity, separate speakers, etc)... with delegations as such.

Mt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and HID in THREE MEASURES OF MEAL, till the whole was LEAVENED.

This verse has been noted by Trinitarians as ‘proof’ of the ‘Trinity doctrine.’ It can be noted as saying something entirely deep and dark. I don’t mean that the kingdom of heaven is dark. I mean that the Wisdom of Jesus Christ is HIDDEN in 3 measures until fully leavened. LEAVEN is not a good thing. We don’t hide the truth... but there it is hidden in 3 measures with leaven by a woman.

Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

Much more could be added here... about tri-theism throughout civilization starting with Nimrod and SEMIRAMIS"!
(Though she is not referred to in Gen. 11, she is seen later on in the prophecy by reflection through AHAB AND HIS WIFE JEZEBEL!)

Since God is invisible, you cannot see His hand, save what He reveals:

Jhn 12:37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, {yet} they were not believing IN HIM.

Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Jhn 14:11 Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
the WORD is the image of the invisible God who know man knoweth but the SON, and no man knoweth the Son but the Father and whom he reveals the Son
Jn: 8:24: I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM HE, ye shall die in your sins.
Now that Jesus is come in the flesh, Immanuel, "God with Us" did God cast that image away? NO

For He is the Image we will see, the Image He created us in His Likeness, the Image who is in the Glorified body of God, and which we must assume, to enter the Kingdom of Sion, that same image is Incorruption, Glorified and sealed at Calvary for we Believed He is the IAM.
John 8:58 – “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM”

#26141 - Sun Jul 03, 2005 3:09 PM Re: Trinity Doctrine [Re: Kathy]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,309
Pilgrim Offline
Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,309
NH, USA
Kathy,

Unfortunately I remain by your replies. How about if we try this? Below is the full text of the "Athanasian Creed". Could you please read it through carefully and then state which part(s)/statement(s) you disagree with? I'm not asking you to accept the word, "Trinity", nor the document as infallible, but rather as a summary statement of what historically, the overwhelming majority of professing Christians has believed concerning the nature of God.


Whoever wills to be in a state of salvation, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic [1] faith, which except everyone shall have kept whole and undefiled without doubt he will perish eternally.

Now the catholic faith is that we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is One, the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit; the Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated; the father infinite, the Son infinite, and the Holy Spirit infinite; the Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet not three eternals but one eternal, as also not three infinites, nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and one infinite. So, likewise, the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty; and yet not three almighties but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son God, and the Holy Spirit God; and yet not three Gods but one God. So the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; and yet not three Lords but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by Christian truth to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be both God and Lord; so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, there be three Gods or three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made nor created but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and the Son, not made nor created nor begotten but proceeding. So there is one Father not three Fathers, one Son not three Sons, and one Holy Spirit not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity there is nothing before or after, nothing greater or less, but the whole three Persons are coeternal together and coequal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Trinity in Unity and the Unity in Trinity is to be worshipped. He therefore who wills to be in a state of salvation, let him think thus of the Trinity.

But it is necessary to eternal salvation that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. The right faith therefore is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man. He is God of the substance of the Father begotten before the worlds, and He is man of the substance of His mother born in the world; perfect God, perfect man subsisting of a reasoning soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who although He be God and Man yet He is not two but one Christ; one however not by conversion of the Godhead in the flesh, but by taking of the Manhood in God; one altogether not by confusion of substance but by unity of Person. For as the reasoning soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again from the dead, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, from whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life eternal, and they who indeed have done evil into eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith, which except a man shall have believed faithfully and firmly he cannot be in a state of salvation.[/b]

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simul iustus et peccator

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#26142 - Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:14 PM Re: Trinity Doctrine [Re: Pilgrim]  
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 81
Kathy Offline
Journeyman
Kathy  Offline
Journeyman

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 81
Chicago
Dear Pilgrim,

((I initially addressed this to J.Edwards, referencing 'you stated'... so, it's 'not you' but J. ))

I suspect you think I’m messing with you... but I’m not.

If there should be a ‘model’ that the Councils strayed from keeping in INTENT (I’m not saying deliberate) and FOCUS, it is THIS one...

Collosians 2:9 - "For in him dwelleth ALL the FULNESS of the GODHEAD BODILY"

Who was lost in this Creed... Jesus Christ (that is my initial answer)
Instead of unity we have a mantra of co-equality to-getherness...

In a repetitive mantra... not three... but one... but not three... co-equal... (co-equal implies separate... three does not mean one... but we don’t really mean three... we really mean one.)

and we get this language:

but the whole ,three Persons are coeternal together and coequal

and the helpful additional description ‘3 PERSONS’ that Scripture forgot to mention... while we search for the hidden wisdom of Christ to be revealed through his Word.... that being “No man comes to the Father, but through me” and consider the DEPTH of that statement as can only be revealed... SPIRITUALLY... and as faithful seekers remember that Jesus said “Before Abraham was I AM”

Again, compared to this: SPIRITUAL INTENT AND FOCUS

Collosians 2:9 - "For in him dwelleth ALL the FULNESS of the GODHEAD BODILY"

The MANTRA continues... FAR from Paul’s revealed wisdom:
For there is one Person of the Father, ANOTHER(person) of the Son, ANOTHER (person) of the Holy Spirit. (But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is One) sort of... not really three... forget three

And just in case anyone is not sure what is required of the Trinity:

But it is necessary to eternal salvation that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Where’s the SALVATION Doctrine... did they forget to include some scripture? any scripture?

CREED:
And they that have done good shall go into life eternal

RE: SALVATION instead we get this ambiguous first line of the document... with no explanation of by Grace through Faith... rather this instead...
Whoever wills to be in a state of salvation, before all things it is necessary. . .


And... this... this is NOT my statement of Faith:
Now the catholic faith is that we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity

WHY NOT?

Because only IN and THROUGH JESUS CHRIST.... Do we know the FATHER (who is NOT a Separate Person... AND is REVEALED in JESUS CHRIST) Who IS HOLY SPIRIT and Incarnate ‘Son’.

YOU SAID... in the HOLY SPIRIT was the Fullness of the Trinity... I told you, I agree (except I would say God-head... that Jesus/Father and Holy Spirit are SPIRIT... but this Revelation is only possible IN JESUS)

CREED:
For like as we are compelled by Christian truth to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be both God and Lord

Can’t separate. When I say Holy Spirit I mean GOD who IS ONE.... I am NOT compelled to acknowledge... each of the ‘three’ by HIMSELF, meaning apart... each as GOD (meaning separate persons of God). No matter how you slice it... it’s 3 (but not really... we don’t want to give you the wrong idea.)

CREED:
the Son uncreated also must believe Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ SO, This is saying that Jesus Christ existed as (a Separate Person), ‘Son’ from the Father before His Incarnation. The Father/Son relationship was created with the Incarnation of the Word (OF THE SAME ONE GOD, HOLY SPIRIT, “IAM”) God entered humanity in the flesh in Jesus Christ ‘SON’ of God... who sought not His own glory.... But his Father testified of Him and the angels, and the Holy Spirit of the One God. AND we come to know GOD in the way HE CHOSE... THROUGH HIS SON... Jesus Christ (Who is God.)

YES, JESUS CHRIST ALWAYS EXISTED... HE IS THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA... He did not exist as ‘Son of man’ ‘Son of God’ until he became Incarnate. He IS the Fullness of the God-head.

If I tell you... I believe that JESUS IS the FATHER/Son/Holy Spirit... and the ONLY WAY to know God IS through JESUS... ARE you telling me, I am denying Jesus Christ? AM I making too much of him? Jesus Christ is Lord and God.

Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Mar 8:29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.

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