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Since we "wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places".

Are the elect instructed to go into another land and take part in the forceful subduing of an entire country resulting in the murder of many? I speak not of self defense and it can be argued by some, that directly attacking the enemy is the best defense, however this is not my thought on the matter.

Nonetheless, are we instructed by Christ to take our weapons and invade another person's land and kill their family in the effort to protect ourself and the ones whom we have killed. Not speaking directly about the war in Iraq, just examining the concept of war and what the Bible says about it just for those who may jump on me about the issue in Iraq, I am speaking about the concept of war and the instructions to believers).

Who is our enemy? Is it not the devil? Will he not just move to another object of manipulation if we remove the object?
Delivered.

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Delivered said:
Since we "wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places".

Are the elect instructed to go into another land and take part in the forceful subduing of an entire country resulting in the murder of many? I speak not of self defense and it can be argued by some, that directly attacking the enemy is the best defense, however this is not my thought on the matter.

Nonetheless, are we instructed by Christ to take our weapons and invade another person's land and kill their family in the effort to protect ourself and the ones whom we have killed. Not speaking directly about the war in Iraq, just examining the concept of war and what the Bible says about it just for those who may jump on me about the issue in Iraq, I am speaking about the concept of war and the instructions to believers).

Who is our enemy? Is it not the devil? Will he not just move to another object of manipulation if we remove the object?
Delivered.

The church is not to take up arms in expansion of the kingdom of God, but this has nothing to do with government, which is clearly given the power of the sword in Rom. 13. And after all, Christ encountered a Roman centurion, but did not tell him to quit his job as a commanding officer in the Roman army.


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Kyle,
Was'nt Pual addressing Believers in the Book of Romans and in Chapter 13 particularly the believers observance of giving what is due to Leaders (respect, honour, etc.). Also warning believers to be good and that they will be treated good and if they are evil then they will receive evil. I dont see how this gives a leader the right to invade another country and kill members of another country.

I brought up this issue because I think that it needs examination from a biblical perspective. But I did read the scriptural reference and I dont see where it speaks to the issue that I raised.
"The church is not to take up arms in expansion of the kingdom of God"
I agree. Some time ago it was suggested in a forceful way through the time of the great crusades that the Church had the sanctioning of God to do such a thing. Also the bible was used to help to perpetuate the advancement of the slave trade in a simialar way, and in our times I sometimes get the sense that many christians try to justify war against those from another culture in this way. Are we not living in a time when Grace is accessible to all and God may choose to call His elect from whichever race or culture He chooses. So should'nt we be more prepared to receive a new brother or sister rather than eager to see the death of someone different?
Roy.

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Kyle,
Was'nt Pual addressing Believers in the Book of Romans and in Chapter 13 particularly the believers observance of giving what is due to Leaders (respect, honour, etc.). Also warning believers to be good and that they will be treated good and if they are evil then they will receive evil. I dont see how this gives a leader the right to invade another country and kill members of another country.

The principle is not as limited as you make it seem. Sometimes one country will commit an injustice against another country, and the offended country has the legitimate right to go to war both to defend itself and to rectify the injustice done against it. This is the right of government.

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"The church is not to take up arms in expansion of the kingdom of God"
I agree. Some time ago it was suggested in a forceful way through the time of the great crusades that the Church had the sanctioning of God to do such a thing. Also the bible was used to help to perpetuate the advancement of the slave trade in a simialar way, and in our times I sometimes get the sense that many christians try to justify war against those from another culture in this way. Are we not living in a time when Grace is accessible to all and God may choose to call His elect from whichever race or culture He chooses. So should'nt we be more prepared to receive a new brother or sister rather than eager to see the death of someone different?
Roy.

Again, you are confusing the church and the government. The government is not a minister of mercy between God and man, it is a minister of wrath. We as Christians should not be desirous of war in itself, but we must recognize that it is sometimes legitimate and necessary for a government to engage in warfare, and even for Christians to participate in such warfare granted that it is just and necessary.


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Delivered said:
Since we "wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places".

Are the elect instructed to go into another land and take part in the forceful subduing of an entire country resulting in the murder of many? I speak not of self defense and it can be argued by some, that directly attacking the enemy is the best defense, however this is not my thought on the matter.

Nonetheless, are we instructed by Christ to take our weapons and invade another person's land and kill their family in the effort to protect ourself and the ones whom we have killed. Not speaking directly about the war in Iraq, just examining the concept of war and what the Bible says about it just for those who may jump on me about the issue in Iraq, I am speaking about the concept of war and the instructions to believers).

Who is our enemy? Is it not the devil? Will he not just move to another object of manipulation if we remove the object?
Delivered.

Delivered what you have asked here is the concept of Jus Ad Bellem or Just War. When is war just and when it isn't. Now others have answered to you regarding the concept of government and church. But what I would like to ask you is it right to allow the head of a government to murder citizens within its border? Should we as people do nothing? How about to enslave one particular group within its borders? Should that be allowed to continue? What about if they sell those persons to another country as slaves? Should that be allowed to continue? Okay, how about this what if one country invades another country but you live in a third country completely isolated by distance and ocean from the invading country or the country being invaded should you intervene?

But lets go simpler. Your neighbor to your right walks across your lawn to the neighbor on your left and begins to beat the living tar out of him. Do you intervene? If so why? If not why?


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"Again, you are confusing the church and the government. The government is not a minister of mercy between God and man, it is a minister of wrath. We as Christians should not be desirous of war in itself, but we must recognize that it is sometimes legitimate and necessary for a government to engage in warfare, and even for Christians to participate in such warfare granted that it is just and necessary."

Again I ask for Biblical reference to support the concept of war. War cannot be simply defined as a police action that ends upon the removal of the perceived threat. War destroys contries and sews seeds of deep hatred that has reprocussions for future generations. But I think that Christians need to look at this world and it's issues through what the Word of God says and not what governments present. I was refering to the Christians acceptance of these actions of war while comparing the fact that the examples in the new testament speak of Kingdom building and not international politics. We can argue many differing political reasons for war but this is not the intention of the question. What does Jesus The Christ instruct Christians to do? Sure during differing incidents of war both from a civil standpoint within my borders and from an international perspective I have formed politically inspired opinions as I am human, but I think that I am wrong if I support my own political or geo-political opinion and not the instructions of God. Is'nt prayer the most effective weapon and also the only weapon given to Christians? Christians are the ones that I have posed the question to, not government. The Christians acceptance of war.

" Delivered what you have asked here is the concept of Jus Ad Bellem or Just War. When is war just and when it isn't. Now others have answered to you regarding the concept of government and church. But what I would like to ask you is it right to allow the head of a government to murder citizens within its border? Should we as people do nothing? How about to enslave one particular group within its borders? Should that be allowed to continue? What about if they sell those persons to another country as slaves? Should that be allowed to continue? Okay, how about this what if one country invades another country but you live in a third country completely isolated by distance and ocean from the invading country or the country being invaded should you intervene?

But lets go simpler. Your neighbor to your right walks across your lawn to the neighbor on your left and begins to beat the living tar out of him. Do you intervene? If so why? If not why?"

When is it acceptible to kill the innocent to get to the wicked? If my neighbour beats and kills some of his family and I decide to take action and get my guns and some of my family and friends and invade the house and in the process I kill some of his family and eventually I kill or capture him, was that acceptible loss and who made me the judge of such things? Lets add an additional scenario, let's say on top of killing and oppressing some of his family and enslaving some of the rest, he also threatens some of my family and may get the opportunity to carry out his threats am I now justified to go in an kill his family in the pursuit of getting to him? Is there no other way? While governments may think that it is okay, Christians cannot and should look to prayer for the protection of their country and their family James 5:16. See also acts 12:1-17

Again I have no desire to turn this into a political discussion.

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Again I ask for Biblical reference to support the concept of war.

Oh, for goodness' sake! Read the Book. The concept of war is everywhere therein, and sometimes God even commanded it of the Israelites. (Horrors!)

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But I think that Christians need to look at this world and it's issues through what the Word of God says and not what governments present. I was refering to the Christians acceptance of these actions of war while comparing the fact that the examples in the new testament speak of Kingdom building and not international politics. We can argue many differing political reasons for war but this is not the intention of the question. What does Jesus The Christ instruct Christians to do? Sure during differing incidents of war both from a civil standpoint within my borders and from an international perspective I have formed politically inspired opinions as I am human, but I think that I am wrong if I support my own political or geo-political opinion and not the instructions of God. Is'nt prayer the most effective weapon and also the only weapon given to Christians? Christians are the ones that I have posed the question to, not government. The Christians acceptance of war.

And I'm telling you that you STILL have church and government mixed up. You keep talking about spiritual vs. worldly weapons, but that has NOTHING to do with a nation going to war for whatever political reason. It ONLY applies to the church! Now if you want to talk about just vs. unjust war, that's getting somewhere. But as it stands it appears that you think that Christians are never to support or participate in any war, that they should be total pacifists.

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When is it acceptible to kill the innocent to get to the wicked? If my neighbour beats and kills some of his family and I decide to take action and get my guns and some of my family and friends and invade the house and in the process I kill some of his family and eventually I kill or capture him, was that acceptible loss and who made me the judge of such things? Lets add an additional scenario, let's say on top of killing and oppressing some of his family and enslaving some of the rest, he also threatens some of my family and may get the opportunity to carry out his threats am I now justified to go in an kill his family in the pursuit of getting to him? Is there no other way? While governments may think that it is okay, Christians cannot and should look to prayer for the protection of their country and their family James 5:16. See also acts 12:1-17

Again I have no desire to turn this into a political discussion.

Oh pish posh! It's obvious the whole question is about Iraq or some other of America's recent wars in your eyes. Be honest about it or forget it.


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Delivered said:
While governments may think that it is okay, Christians cannot and should look to prayer for the protection of their country and their family James 5:16. See also acts 12:1-17
Let me make sure I am understanding your position on war, specifically in regard to how it applies to Christians. Is it your contention that no Christian should be involved in any war? specific kinds of war? but rather they should restrict their involvement only to that of prayer?

In His Grace,


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When is it acceptable to kill the innocent to get to the wicked? If my neighbour beats and kills some of his family and I decide to take action and get my guns and some of my family and friends and invade the house and in the process I kill some of his family and eventually I kill or capture him, was that acceptable loss and who made me the judge of such things? Lets add an additional scenario, let's say on top of killing and oppressing some of his family and enslaving some of the rest, he also threatens some of my family and may get the opportunity to carry out his threats am I now justified to go in an kill his family in the pursuit of getting to him? Is there no other way? While governments may think that it is okay, Christians cannot and should look to prayer for the protection of their country and their family James 5:16. See also acts 12:1-17

You know D its easier to answer the question when you reply to the person who sent it. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/yep.gif" alt="" /> But be that as it may you have some esplainin' to do Lucy <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> First of all define innocent for me please? When God commanded Joshua to destroy all of Jericho except for Rahab's brood did not children, women, aged and other non-combatant people die? Was that right?

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Lets add an additional scenario, let's say on top of killing and oppressing some of his family and enslaving some of the rest, he also threatens some of my family and may get the opportunity to carry out his threats am I now justified to go in an kill his family in the pursuit of getting to him? Is there no other way?

So D your telling me that its more scriptural to allow evil to happen and for you to just pray about it and hope it goes away. How do you reconcile that with 1 Tim. 5:8? Shouldn't safety also be something you provide?


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After doing a search here on the Board for threads which discussed this topic, which were done several times, I came across the mention of an article written by Pastor Steven J. Cole of Flagstaff Christian Fellowship. I had totally forgotten about this article! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/gramps.gif" alt="" />

To read it clicky here: Should Christians Endorse War?

In His Grace,

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Oh pish posh! It's obvious the whole question is about Iraq or some other of America's recent wars in your eyes. Be honest about it or forget it.

So you think that only America wages war or that every one else in the world views right or wrong through the actions of america only? I live in a country where the government wages war against entire communities in the effort to capture one or maybe two ganglords and the end result is always murder and injury to the innocent and these actions are accepted by none pacivist christians until their family dies innocently in one of these raids. Then it is time to cry out against this. We value the lives of our prople as well and I am sure I was quite clear that the issue is war of all kinds including civil or international.

America's actions are above discussion with americans so I would not even venture there. I am sure that you know that.

While I do not agree with war of any kind including terrorist action, I feel no pain for the capture of that wicked man who oppressed Iraq.

But from my understanding (though not a theologist) of the old and the new testament, the main difference is the coming of the Christ and the fullfillment of what the old was building up to. So yes anyone who has read the bible knows that the Old testament is filled with war stories. Again as I said originally, sticking to the question which you refuse to discuss, What does the New Testament, what does Jesus say about war? I asked whether Christians are instructed to promote, encourage, or support war in anyway shape or form? But you all seem bent on justifying your country's involvement in "a war". So I guess from all this as it relates to war all you want to discuss is America, as you fail to see beyond your own nationality. No room for Christian bible baised discussions on such a topic.

I take this to mean that you do not wish to have this discussion but you would rather have a political discussion, which I do not care for. I live in an area that is not as bad as reported in the media but I do here gunshots atleast once a week and there are different sides that fight against there own and other sides and in the midst of all that is the police who are under instructions from our government to carry out raids and armed excursions into areas that have the elderly, the sick, Children, women who are not invloved in wrong doing or anything that warrants their death either in crossfires or wrongful hits and the Church is largely quite on this issue and often supports the actions of this war. Similarly I thought you may have similar issues with your churches being quiet or supporting similar actions of your goverment. But maybe you dont think that people outside of america face problems too and have issues that are worthy of discussion?

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Pilgrim:
Let me make sure I am understanding your position on war, specifically in regard to how it applies to Christians. Is it your contention that no Christian should be involved in any war? specific kinds of war? but rather they should restrict their involvement only to that of prayer?

Okay I have friends in the military, one of my closest friend is a Lt. Colonel good man, good Christian but that is his job and he does it quite well as in a short time he has been promoted several times based on performance. He is humble and devoted to his wife and family, he does not agree with war especially the the speed with which our modern day leaders resort to war. War is not a picnic it is not something that we can just pretend to be God and follow the examples of the Old Testament. God knew what he was doing, we dont. I am sure He took no joy in what happened, but He is God. I question the almost cold way in which persons whose hearts are supposed to be filled with love scoff at the deaths of others. Will read the articles you mentioned in your follow up post.

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"So D your telling me that its more scriptural to allow evil to happen and for you to just pray about it and hope it goes away. How do you reconcile that with 1 Tim. 5:8? Shouldn't safety also be something you provide?"

Where I live my friend I have to trust that God will keep my family alive and safe and He does each day. SO yes I depend on my prayers and the Grace of God toward His people to keep my family out of the clutches of the wicked. Before I came to know of God's call on my life I was filled with fear and this fear lead me to study martial arts which I did for over twenty years and I also did lessons at a private legal gun range in the effort to defend my family and myself against the actions of gangs under instructions from drug leaders etc. but I solved nothing. I am now without that fear that gripped me prior to my Christian walk. If I feel concern for my families safety my wife and I and the Christian members of our family hold prayer meetings and ask for Gods prtection and we conduct our various businesses in war torn areas without incident, thanks be to God. I do not want to seem as though I am taking a higher road than every one else as I am sure that if you examine the question and look at it in the context that it was meant we would agree.

There is an exercise that I try to do every day all through the day, it is this, when I am confronted with a situation that is potentially hostile, to pray first and always ask for Gods' Grace first. Keep the need to react further away from my thoughts. It is hard to do but I try to everyday, and it keeps me from trying to do what I think too quickly in situation that can affect another life or even my own and I take this attitude to every level. I believe that this is biblical and that the time of "an eye for and eye" has passed.

Roy.

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So you think that only America wages war or that every one else in the world views right or wrong through the actions of america only? I live in a country where the government wages war against entire communities in the effort to capture one or maybe two ganglords and the end result is always murder and injury to the innocent and these actions are accepted by none pacivist christians until their family dies innocently in one of these raids. Then it is time to cry out against this. We value the lives of our prople as well and I am sure I was quite clear that the issue is war of all kinds including civil or international.

No, that has NOT been clear. You were talking about nations invading nations, not police raids!

Quote
But from my understanding (though not a theologist) of the old and the new testament, the main difference is the coming of the Christ and the fullfillment of what the old was building up to. So yes anyone who has read the bible knows that the Old testament is filled with war stories. Again as I said originally, sticking to the question which you refuse to discuss, What does the New Testament, what does Jesus say about war? I asked whether Christians are instructed to promote, encourage, or support war in anyway shape or form? But you all seem bent on justifying your country's involvement in "a war". So I guess from all this as it relates to war all you want to discuss is America, as you fail to see beyond your own nationality. No room for Christian bible baised discussions on such a topic.

I never brought up Iraq until it became clear to me that that's what you had in mind. If it's not in fact what you had in mind, your description sounded quite a bit like it! But at any rate, I've not been attempting to justify any particular war, I've simply been trying to correct your mistaken assumption that the government should behave as the church, in short, as a minister of mercy. That is not the government's role. As far as Jesus taught, Christians are not to go to war to build the kingdom of heaven. That's it. The weapons of the world are not to be the weapons of the church! But that doesn't apply to earthly governments, and nowhere are Christians forbidden from supporting or taking part in war. As I pointed out to you before, Jesus never told the centurion to quit his job as a Roman military official.

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Delivered said:
Are the elect instructed to go into another land and take part in the forceful subduing of an entire country resulting in the murder of many?

Yes. Christian soldiers are commanded to obey those who are in authority over them. Rom. 13:5-7; Titus 3:1; 1 Peter 2:13, 14. To attack an enemy who has chosen to embed himself among civilians is not murder. It is the enemy who murders the civilians.

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Nonetheless, are we instructed by Christ to take our weapons and invade another person's land and kill their family in the effort to protect ourself and the ones whom we have killed.

Those in authority have responsibilities under the moral law of God. They should not wage offensive wars in order to obtain power, influence, and goods under a show of right under a false pretext of a perceived threat.

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Not speaking directly about the war in Iraq, just examining the concept of war and what the Bible says about it just for those who may jump on me about the issue in Iraq, I am speaking about the concept of war and the instructions to believers).

Whether or not Iraq is an unjust war, the Christian soldier has taken an oath to the Constitution of the United States that requires him to obey the lawful orders of the President. To refuse service in Iraq would be to bear false witness and disrespect authority.

If during his service in Iraq, the Christian soldier is given an unlawful order to murder Iraqi civilians or abuse prisoners, he should obey God rather than man.

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"Yes. Christian soldiers are commanded to obey those who are in authority over them. Rom. 13:5-7; Titus 3:1; 1 Peter 2:13, 14. To attack an enemy who has chosen to embed himself among civilians is not murder. It is the enemy who murders the civilians."

I agree with most of what you said but I think that the same obligation that I have toward my family if an enemy embedded himself amongst my family memebers, I have the same obligation to another persons family. I am looking at this from the perspective that the enemy surrounds himself with the innocent and my bullets unintentionally but probably will hit and maybe kill the innocent. It is not their fault that these cowards (the enemy being pursued) came amongst them.

Please be mindfull that I only responded to the scenarios presented to me. You further went on to describe the christian duty to obey God over man in an instant where the orders are not right. This is a good point and one which I pray about too.

I do not feel comfortable discussing politics or the politics of war especially with what is happening worldwide. I do feel however that the attitudes of Christians towards murder and destruction needs to be examined.

I do not feel at liberty to discuss an actual conflict that the US has undertaken, as it is my opinion that this issue is way too sensitive to discuss with most Americans. Example, I have friends and family who are American citizens and when we speak about the war in Iraq they are way to aggressive <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/argue.gif" alt="" /> in defense of it even unnecesarily so as the majority of Jamaicans were in support of it. But have questions, questions that will not be answered but are asked to inspire thought <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bingo.gif" alt="" /> but achieve only aggression.

We understand the ravages of war and know the effects of the human loss. Jamaicans and persons from other Caribbean countries died in the bombing of the World Trade Center and my cousin worked on both towers with an IT company working with a large Bank located on the two towers. He was thrown to the ground upon the first impact and by the Grace of God managed to exit the building he was in and he walked home to New Jersey. We all agree that people like Osama Bin Laden and Saddam need to be brought to justice, as well as any terrorist locally or internationally. But the discussion was not instigated to discuss "a War" but to discuss the coldness or apathy that Christians have toward the effects of war in any form. I know Christians who rejoiced upon the bombing of Bagdad and were and are confortable with the death toll of the innocent. This I question. I question it because I know that it is not Godly to feel joy at the death of someone. I admit that I do not understand nor do I care to understand the concept of war, though I believe that one has the right to defend ones family etc. I do not question the obedience to a lawfull instruction by a soldier or a Christian soldier.

Pilgrim asked questions that I would have anticipated would have been asked by someone before assuming that I was talking about "a war", and I hope I answered the questions and made my intentions clearer.

I pray for the safe return of the coalition soldiers including the US soldiers also. I also pray that innocent lives are spared and that the seeds of hate fall on unfertile soil.


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