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Re: God does not command evil? #26879
Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:03 AM
Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:03 AM
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speratus said:
How do you define "ordain"? To order by virtue of superior authority; decree or enact? To prearrange unalterably; predestine?

Ordain: To order by divine decree. In this case, to determine the existence and end of all things by God's immutable counsel from eternity according to His good pleasure and without influence from the things created. All that God ordains He also providentially directs and brings them to their appointed end.

To believe anything less than this, as R.C. Sproul has said, thrusts one into the arena of the Atheist.

All the answers, which were questions, that you gave in response to my questions that followed were irrelevant, e.g., whether or not the angels had a "free-will", whether men are "free-agents". My questions therefore remain and I would appreciate a yes or no answer. It's very simple really. Such questions have been asked of countless people and they were all able to answer them quite easily. I'm sure you can do it if you really try.

1) Did God ordain the fall of Satan and those angels who joined with him in rebellion against Him?

2) Did God ordain the Fall of Adam and consequently all of mankind?

3) Did God ordain the crucifixion of Christ, including the acts of the actual men who physically nailed Him to the cross?

4) Does God ordain such things as rape, murder, child molestation, in fact all the wicked acts of men which happen to both believers and unbelievers?


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Re: God does not command evil? #26880
Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:47 AM
Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:47 AM
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Speratus I may or my not have given you this before. If I have then I apologize for doing it again if I haven't I suggest you "tolle lege". . Whatsoever Comes to Pass A Personal Pilgrimage Toward Godís Sovereignty Brian Godawa


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
Re: God does not command evil? [Re: Pilgrim] #26881
Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:07 AM
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Quote
Pilgrim said:
Quote
speratus said:
How do you define "ordain"? To order by virtue of superior authority; decree or enact? To prearrange unalterably; predestine?

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" /> Ordain: To order by divine decree. In this case, to determine the existence and end of all things by God's immutable counsel from eternity according to His good pleasure and without influence from the things created. All that God ordains He also providentially directs and brings them to their appointed end.

To believe anything less than this, as R.C. Sproul has said, thrusts one into the arena of the Atheist. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

All the answers, which were questions, that you gave in response to my questions that followed were irrelevant, e.g., whether or not the angels had a "free-will", whether men are "free-agents".


My questions on your questions were all revelant to the topic. Here's my answers to my questions: God did not command the fall of the devils or of Adam. Gen. 2:17; 2 Peter 2:4. God does not command evil works of fallen men. James 1:13-15.

Quote
My questions therefore remain and I would appreciate a yes or no answer. It's very simple really. Such questions have been asked of countless people and they were all able to answer them quite easily. I'm sure you can do it if you really try. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" />

1) Did God ordain the fall of Satan and those angels who joined with him in rebellion against Him?

2) Did God ordain the Fall of Adam and consequently all of mankind?

3) Did God ordain the crucifixion of Christ, including the acts of the actual men who physically nailed Him to the cross?

4) Does God ordain such things as rape, murder, child molestation, in fact all the wicked acts of men which happen to both believers and unbelievers?


Yes, to all with the understanding that "ordain" does not mean that God causes, authors, predestinates, or commands evil.

Re: God does not command evil? #26882
Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:40 AM
Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:40 AM
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speratus said:
My questions on your questions were all revelant to the topic. Here's my answers to my questions: God did not command the fall of the devils or of Adam. Gen. 2:17; 2 Peter 2:4. God does not command evil works of fallen men. James 1:13-15.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, although you shall be judged for holding error. The most wicked act ever committed by men was crucifixion of the Lord Christ. And it is CLEARLY said to have occurred and it could have only occurred due to the eternal determinate counsel of God.


Acts 2:22-24 (ASV) "Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know; him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay: whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Acts 4:26-28 (ASV) "The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against his Anointed: for of a truth in this city against thy holy Servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together, to do whatsoever thy hand and thy council foreordained to come to pass."



It is by God's foreordination that ALL THINGS, right down to the movement of the smallest particle of matter, the very thoughts of men and creatures, come to be and are providentially guided to their appointed ends.


Psalms 135:6 (ASV) "Whatsoever Jehovah pleased, that hath he done, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps;"

Isaiah 46:9-10 (ASV) "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; [I am] God, and there is none like me; declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not [yet] done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure;"

Daniel 4:35 (ASV) "And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"

Ephesians 1:9-11 (ASV) "making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, [I say,] in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;"

Romans 11:33-36 (ASV) "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and unto him, are all things. To him [be] the glory for ever. Amen."



Quote
speratus sputtered:
Yes, to all with the understanding that "ordain" does not mean that God causes, authors, predestinates, or commands evil.

You simply can't choose to change the definition of a biblical term to suit your own preconceived ideas! This fictitious "god" of yours doesn't meet the biblical definition of deity. For, you have a "god" who has no power over what comes to pass but who can only react to the evil acts of devils and men after they occur since according to you, these acts have not been preordained. Thus devils and wicked men act apart from the sovereign power and authority of God. Sure sounds like Dualism to me. R.C. Sproul was 100% correct... reject the biblical teaching on God's absolute sovereignty over all things in both power and AUTHORITY, whereby all things have been foreordained by His perfect and immutable counsel and you fall headlong into Atheism. What I find most ironic about you, dear speratus, is that you reject any and all biblical teaching concerning the free-agency of man in regard to salvation but equally reject the sovereignty of God over fallen angels and men. You have created the proverbial puppets that are saved by God's sovereign power but these same puppets, who you have said on many an occasion don't even have the freedom of will to sin, that are doing wickedness which God has nothing to do with. Sorry... but that's not only illogical, it is utterly irrational.

In His Grace,


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Re: God does not command evil? [Re: Pilgrim] #26883
Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:47 PM
Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:47 PM

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Quote
Pilgrim said:
Quote
speratus said:
My questions on your questions were all revelant to the topic. Here's my answers to my questions: God did not command the fall of the devils or of Adam. Gen. 2:17; 2 Peter 2:4. God does not command evil works of fallen men. James 1:13-15.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, although you shall be judged for holding error. The most wicked act ever committed by men was crucifixion of the Lord Christ. And it is CLEARLY said to have occurred and it could have only occurred due to the eternal determinate counsel of God.

Quote

Acts 2:22-24 (ASV) "Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know; him, being delivered up <span style="background-color:yellow">by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God</span>, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay: whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Acts 4:26-28 (ASV) "The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against his Anointed: for of a truth in this city against thy holy Servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together, <span style="background-color:yellow">to do whatsoever thy hand and thy council foreordained to come to pass.</span>"<br>


Where do you see, in that passage, God commanding the soldiers to execute Christ?

Quote
It is by God's foreordination that ALL THINGS, right down to the movement of the smallest particle of matter, the very thoughts of men and creatures, come to be and are providentially guided to their appointed ends.


Yes, where did I dispute that?


Quote
Quote
speratus sputtered:
Yes, to all with the understanding that "ordain" does not mean that God causes, authors, predestinates, or commands evil.

You simply can't choose to change the definition of a biblical term to suit your own preconceived ideas! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" /> This fictitious "god" of yours doesn't meet the biblical definition of deity.


I did not change your definition of ordain. You now wish to change your definition so that God does evil.

Quote
For, you have a "god" who has no power over what comes to pass but who can only react to the evil acts of devils and men after they occur since according to you, these acts have not been preordained. Thus devils and wicked men act apart from the sovereign power and authority of God. Sure sounds like Dualism to me. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/igiveup.gif" alt="" />


No. It is your god that is powerless. He must issue evil commands inorder to accomplish his purposes. If God ordains something (and He ordains everything), it is good not evil by definition. But you have set up a god who is the author of good and evil. Now that's dualism.

Quote
R.C. Sproul was 100% correct... reject the biblical teaching on God's absolute sovereignty over all things in both power and AUTHORITY, whereby all things have been foreordained by His perfect and immutable counsel and you fall headlong into Atheism. What I find most ironic about you, dear speratus, is that you reject any and all biblical teaching concerning the free-agency of man in regard to salvation but equally reject the sovereignty of God over fallen angels and men. You have created the proverbial puppets that are saved by God's sovereign power but these same puppets, who you have said on many an occasion don't even have the freedom of will to sin, that are doing wickedness which God has nothing to do with. Sorry... but that's not only illogical, it is utterly irrational. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bingo.gif" alt="" />


I see your view as illogical. Unregenerate men are in bondage to Satan so they have no free will to do good or evil. They will inevitably do evil because of their bound will. But, according to your view, they are in bondage to God and He is holding the strings commanding them to sin and yet they still have free-will to do evil.

Last edited by speratus; Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:50 PM.
Re: God does not command evil? #26884
Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:59 PM
Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:59 PM
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Quote
I quoted:
Acts 4:26-28 (ASV) "The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against his Anointed: for of a truth in this city against thy holy Servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together, to do whatsoever thy hand and thy council foreordained to come to pass."

And you responded with:
Where do you see, in that passage, God commanding the soldiers to execute Christ?

You're kidding, right? [Linked Image] First of all, I never said that God commanded the soldiers to execute Christ. What I said was, and consistent with the subject, is that God ordained that the soldiers execute Christ. The inspired text says, "to do whatsoever thy hand and thy council foreordained to come to pass." What we don't read is that God foreordained whatsoever was to come to pass except all the details to accomplish the crucifixion of Christ. If God hadn't foreordained all things, then the crucifixion would not nor could have happened for this event was determined by God from all eternity. And, it was prophetically announced for centuries prior by the mouth of His prophets. Unless you want to espouse Open Theism, God was the proximate cause of Christ's death down to every single detail.

Quote
However, contradicting yourself you affirm:
"It is by God's foreordination that ALL THINGS, right down to the movement of the smallest particle of matter, the very thoughts of men and creatures, come to be and are providentially guided to their appointed ends."

Yes, where did I dispute that?

Unless you also what to redefine what ALL THINGS means, then there is nothing which has existence nor events that occur that God has not eternally decreed.


Quote
speratus again sputtered:
I did not change your definition of ordain. You now wish to change your definition so that God does evil.

My very first statement when I entered this discussion was, "God is not the Author of evil!" And I will affirm additionally that God does no evil. Your attempt to put words into my mouth doesn't help you here.

Quote
And you blurt out yet another total illogical contradiction:
No. It is your god that is powerless. He must issue evil commands inorder to accomplish his purposes. If God ordains something (and He ordains everything), it is good not evil by definition. But you have set up a god who is the author of good and evil. Now that's dualism.

Which is it? God ordains everything? or He ordains only somethings? Unless you can establish that "evil" is nothing, then logically it must be that God ordains this as well.

Quote
Lastly, going off topic you wrote:
I see your view as illogical. Unregenerate men are in bondage to Satan so they have no free will to do good or evil. They will inevitably do evil because of their bound will. But, according to your view, they are in bondage to God and He is holding the strings commanding them to sin and yet they still have free-will to do evil.

Nothing but more nonsense. Unregenerate men have no ability (free-will) to do good or evil, but the do evil because of their bound will. dizzy The Scriptures teach that men are in bondage to both their corrupt natures and are under the power of Satan to do that which is against the prescribed will of God. But ALL men are under the ultimate sovereign authority and power of God to do whatsoever He has decreed. I've supplied ample textual support for this truth and more could easily be added. You've already tried to defend this error several times before and were soundly shown to be in error. Stick with the subject at hand, please!

In His Grace,


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Re: God does not command evil? [Re: Pilgrim] #26885
Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:03 PM
Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:03 PM

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Quote
Pilgrim said:
Quote
I quoted:
Acts 4:26-28 (ASV) "The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against his Anointed: for of a truth in this city against thy holy Servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together, <span style="background-color:yellow">to do whatsoever thy hand and thy council foreordained to come to pass.</span>"

And you responded with:
Where do you see, in that passage, God commanding the soldiers to execute Christ?

You're kidding, right? [Linked Image] First of all, I never said that God commanded the soldiers to execute Christ.


Then, why did you not agree with my statement:

Quote
God does not command evil works of fallen men. James 1:13-15.


Pilgrim writes,
Quote
However, contradicting yourself you affirm:
Quote

"It is by God's foreordination that ALL THINGS, right down to the movement of the smallest particle of matter, the very thoughts of men and creatures, come to be and are providentially guided to their appointed ends."

Yes, where did I dispute that?

Unless you also what to redefine what ALL THINGS means, then there is nothing which has existence nor events that occur that God has not eternally decreed.


Again, where have I disputed that?

Pilgrim writes,

Quote
My very first statement when I entered this discussion was, "God is not the Author of evil!" And I will affirm additionally that God does no evil. Your attempt to put words into my mouth doesn't help you here.


If God does not evil, why do you disagree with my statement:

Quote
Yes, to all with the understanding that "ordain" does not mean that God causes, authors, predestinates, or commands evil.



Pilgrim writes,

Quote
And you blurt out yet another total illogical contradiction:
Quote

No. It is your god that is powerless. He must issue evil commands inorder to accomplish his purposes. <span style="background-color:yellow">If God ordains something (and He ordains everything)</span>, it is good not evil by definition. But you have set up a god who is the author of good and evil. Now that's dualism.

Which is it? God ordains everything? or He ordains only somethings? Unless you can establish that "evil" is nothing, then logically it must be that God ordains this as well.


God ordains everything and it's all good not evil. We know whatever occurs is good (although it may be done by evil men and devils against God's express command) because God has ordained it to occur.

Re: God does not command evil? [Re: J_Edwards] #26886
Sun Jul 31, 2005 8:06 PM
Sun Jul 31, 2005 8:06 PM

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You only have to read the bible to see God supposedly commanded evil

Re: God does not command evil? #26887
Wed Aug 03, 2005 3:42 PM
Wed Aug 03, 2005 3:42 PM

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I think we may be making this a little harder than it needs to be. No one has established the limit (if there is one) to God's soverignty. If there is one (by His choice only), and man is completly free, then evil has nothing to do with God. But of course, that is unbiblical. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
So we're left with a complete sovereignty, or somehow a combination of both. But to answer this, we need a definitions of sovereignty. Wester's dictionary defines it: Sovereignty of God, his absolute right to do all things according to his own good pleasure (Dan. 4:25, 35; Rom. 9:15-23; 1 Tim. 6:15; Rev. 4:11).
His ABSOLUTE right to do all things according to HIS OWN GOOD PLEASURE.
So if we say absolute sovereignty, we do not (by definition) mean we are puppets, as some believers imply, which is why I imagine, it's a combination of both.

That's my first question: limited (by His own device) or complete sovereignty? The next point assumes absolute.

I like to put it this way: Say we take, for metaphor only, literaly God is an Author. When a human author writes that a character is doing an evil act, the author himself, while not committing evil, is ORDAINING evil. I realize this illistration falls through in that an author, to some extent, controls EVERY moment of each characters life, which is precisely why I brought the sovereignty point up. I hope this helps.

Re: God does not command evil? #26888
Sat Aug 06, 2005 5:09 PM
Sat Aug 06, 2005 5:09 PM
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Awsome topic! Something which boggled me many times!

Thesumo, that's an interesting way to look at it... have to think about that.

Not to be politically correct or anything... but keep in mind, guys and galls, that when you are involved in a dispute, you are arguing against an idea and not a person. We do this to find, point-out, and solve fallacies for the good of all three parties involved (one possessing the right view, one possessing no view, and one possessing the wrong view). Therefore its best to leave such words and fraises which attack anothers ego out of the battle field.

Re: God does not command evil? #26889
Sun Aug 07, 2005 7:38 AM
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Quote
thesumo said:
I like to put it this way: Say we take, for metaphor only, literaly God is an Author. When a human author writes that a character is doing an evil act, the author himself, while not committing evil, is ORDAINING evil. I realize this illistration falls through in that an author, to some extent, controls EVERY moment of each characters life, which is precisely why I brought the sovereignty point up.


To continue your metaphor, if the author has absolute sovereignty over his all characters, does he not have the absolute right to do all things according his good pleasure? All the events he depicts (ordains) must, therefore, be considered good not evil, irrespective of whether or not the characters are free or in bondage, and whether or not they do good or evil.

Last edited by speratus; Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:59 AM.
Re: God does not command evil? #26890
Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:50 PM
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Time out! Before we go on, can we please define (and identify the limits) of these terms and how they apply to both man and God.

Evil...
Free will...
Sovereignty...
Predestination...
Ordain...
Decree (action verb)...
Election...
Foreknowledge...
Holy...

...or would this be a new topic?

Re: God does not command evil? [Re: jadeitedrake0] #26891
Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:08 PM
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Quote
jadeitedrake0 said:
Time out! Before we go on, can we please define (and identify the limits) of these terms and how they apply to both man and God.

Evil...
Free will...
Sovereignty...
Predestination...
Ordain...
Decree (action verb)...
Election...
Foreknowledge...
Holy...

...or would this be a new topic?


It would probably be best to create a new thread asking these questions. However, that's a lot of ground to cover for one thread . . .


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Re: God does not command evil? #26892
Wed Aug 10, 2005 2:24 AM
Wed Aug 10, 2005 2:24 AM

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seperatus said, (sorry, I don't know how to do the quote thing yet) "if the author has absolute sovereignty over his all characters, does he not have the absolute right to do all things according his good pleasure?"
This is a really good point! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bananas.gif" alt="" /> So if this author illistration (with sepratus' new light on it) is close (I would not daresay it is completly), what do the passeges in the Bible that talk of God's wrath against evil if he indeed ordained it?
Using the author illustration, if I were to write a particularly evil character (say Dr. Doom or something), just because I write him to do evil does not mean I consider him good. Comments?

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