The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Unmovable

For many years Philosophers have struggled over the question of epistemology …the study of what we can truly know with certainty. The search for certainty led Descartes to doubt Everything…(“how do I know that I am not deceived every time I add together two and three”…etc) He finally comes to the conclusion that He(himself) Exists, giving rise to the well-known phrase: I think, therefore I am. But the search for truth will never be satisfied without God and the Bible. The Bible teaches that the Fear of the Lord is the Beginning of Wisdom. (Proverbs 1:7) Philosophy seeks after truth. It originates with man and is always tentative and relative. It is powerless to save. Scripture proclaims truth. It is absolute, the final and saving power of God in Christ. It humbles men before the sovereign God.
Not only does Scripture say that there is ONLY one way to heaven, but that we may be certain of its truth.
Pro 22:20 Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge,
Pro 22:21 That I might make thee know the CERTAINTY OF THE WORDS OF TRUTH; that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee?

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel KNOW ASSUREDLY, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

You say you "believe in God" yet what God do you believe in, and what kind of certainty do you base that belief in? DeathIsTheEnd is an interesting choice to call yourself, but are you CERTAIN what will happen when you die? If you believe in the God of the bible you would have to believe in the existance of hell and eternity.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

DITE:Did you clarify you question?
What is the nature of this question?
Are you questioning whether the Rock referred to in the Bible is unmovable?
Or are you questioning whether the concept of GOD portrayed in the Bible is real of logically possible?
What is your intent behind this question?
This is a Christian forum and there are rules so we need to know where you are headed with this question. I am also trying to ascertain if this is a genuine enquiry that is a part of your quest for the truth or is it that you mean to breakdown a belief that you feel is a weak one?

The thing is, if GOD can be limited by our own definitions and perception then can HE truly be GOD? We believe that GOD is All Powerful and Everlasting, way beyond the reaches of our own perception and HE is not limited by our short commings but is able to do exceedingly, abundantly above all that we may ask or think, so it matters not what you think of our believe, but I am concerned about what it is that you believe, and from many of the other responses I think that that is the concern as well. If you have questions about GOD and the Truth then why not enquire within the pages of the only book that has proven to be the Word of GOD? The Bible. Or why not follow the rules of the forum and engage in a meaningful discourse that seeks to edify yourself?

With all due respect, I believe that DITE deserves an honest anwser to his initial question, so let me be the first to attempt to do that w/ out errr... hitting him over the head w/ various heavy objects.

Recently RC Sproul dealt w/ this subject in detail. So these are not my thoughts...

So, can God create a rock so big that he cant lift it? This question is meant to put a christian in a delema.
1. If yes, then there can extist a substence which limits God (challenging His omnipotence). 2. If no, then there are somethings which God cant do (again, challenging His omnipotence).

The anwser is a big fat NO! But, the limitation here is not in God, in fact the limitation lies in definitions and implications of words.

All words have meaning, which is to say, their definitions. So what is a definition? A definition is that which circumscribes the meaning (aka, creates bounderies). Simply put, all words have implications, which CANNOT be brocken for any particular word to still have its meaning.

So lets dissect this monster...
"Can God create a rock so big that He could not lift it?"

My point... The culprit here is the word CREATE! which will always imply that the creator must be greater then the created! Why is this always implied? Can you come up w/ any instence where this is not true? (hard reason).

Other question in this category?...
"Can God create another God?"
-- once again, breaking implication of CREATE --

"Can God solve a contradiction?"
-- breaking circumscripting implications of CONTRADICTION being: something not solvable.

Therefore people who make up such questions (I am not implying you, DITE), in their zeal to point-out "fallacies" w/ in Christianity, demonstrate their own ignoranse concerning rational common sence.

Last question... who are now the blind ones?

*Off Topic*

Hey Jadeitedrake0, it's nice seeing a post from you.

Dave.

There is only One GOD. This one GOD is Omnipotent (All Powerful, possessing All Power) this concept cannot be fully understood or fully perceieved by an unregenerated mind.

Applying intellectual and phylosophical reasoning about the concept of the Omipotence of GOD outside of the regeneration of the mind is unfruitful. If someone admits that GOD is real and that they believe in GOD, then how can a God who is not All Powerful have created this world? Humans are limited by their expression in the form of words and the understanding of these limited words to begin to define an infinite GOD? The concept is beyond us.

Such questions that are designed to poke holes in "the theory of God" as expressed by the Christian Church can only succeed in poking holes in the limited expressions of human languages and not in the existence of GOD or HIS "All Powerful State". DITE: Which GOD do you believe in? Where do you derive your information about this God if not the Bible?

Paul himself seems to indicate that even unregenerate men can understand what omnipotence entails:

"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse" (Rom. 1:20).

The problem is that they suppress the truth which they know and replace it with a lie.

Kyle wrote:Paul himself seems to indicate that even unregenerate men can understand what omnipotence entails:

"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse" (Rom. 1:20).

The problem is that they suppress the truth which they know and replace it with a lie.

Is this suppression a product of sinful unregeneration (that is always against the Truth) or is it a case that the person or persons in question are in full understanding of the Truth and choose to replace it with a lie? Just for clarity.

Is not the bible the best or the only source available to even the unregenerated mind for a True description of GOD and HIS purpose. Not the observation of Nature etc., as some outside of the Christian walk choose to do and are led away. My previous statement seeks to point to the True direction for Knowledge pertaining to GOD (the Bible), and to state that even when reading the Bible, without a renewing of our minds so-to-speak then it is possible to make incorrect assumptions etc.

Respectfully,
Roy.

Roy,

Methinks you are confusing at least one thing in regard to the effects of man being in his "natural" state, i.e., "unregenerate". Total Depravity doesn't nullify a person's intellect; the ability to think or comprehend. Some of the most brilliant minds born on this earth were unregenerate God haters. Being unregenerate means that one's "predisposition/inclination" is opposed to God and all that is good (aka: God's prescriptive will, His law). Put in the vernacular, unregenerate men hate God and anything that is holy, pure and good. (cf. Rom 8:7, 8; Eph 4:17-19) Now, as to the topic at hand, whether an unregenerate man can understand something of God, it is more than clear from Romans 1:

Romans 1:18-21 (ASV) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.

In this text, there is a double-indictment against unregenerate men. 1) Knowledge of God is inherent in all men, for it is God Himself Who reveals it to them, e.g., conscience. 2) Knowledge of God, particularly his "everlasting power", aka: sovereignty/power and His "divinity", aka: Supreme being, are clearly seen from the natural creation. Consequently, due to the perspicuity of both the inner testimony from God and the testimony of the physical world, all men are "without excuse", for knowing these things about God, they reject them and substitute their own ideas, philosophies, religions, etc. rather than embracing the truth. It is this rejection which is the fruit of man's natural depravity, and not the inability to perceive the truth.

Without question, the Bible is the sole and final authority in all matters of faith and practice. The "details" concerning God and particularly of salvation are only found in His inspired, inerrant and infallible Word; the Bible. There is no contradiction here whatsoever with the facts of Rom 1:18-21. There is sufficient proof for the existence and power of God to be found by God's manifestation of this truth within all men and it can also be seen in the world around them. These things alone should be sufficient to cause men to fall to the ground and worship God; not rightly, mind you.. but "naturally" as a creature before the Creator. But natural men do not do this. In fact they cast off this double-truth and with their own corrupt imaginations create "gods" unto themselves. The Scriptures give the details of that inner testimony and the creation, putting everything in its proper place and order. But most importantly, the Scriptures reveal why men suppress/reject the truth and substitute a lie; i.e., they are UNABLE to do anything else, for they are born spiritually dead. They have inherited a corrupt nature which is opposed to the God and truth. And it is upon this fact, that all men are under the wrath of God from conception and subject to damnation, lest God in His righteous mercy should give them newness of life by sending the Holy Spirit to regenerate their dead souls.

So, to summarize.. there is enough evidence to be found in both the inner manifestation of truth and that which is clearly seen with the senses to convict all men of their sinfulness which rejects this truth about the deity of God and His sovereign power. The majesty, holiness, etc., of God can only be known from His inspired written record; the Bible. In it one is told everything necessary about God, Christ, sin, guilt punishment, salvation and the world to come. But without the new birth, aka: regeneration, no one will nor can them embrace this truth in the way required by God, i.e., with one's whole mind, heart, soul and strength through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

In His grace,

Sir Pilgrim,
I did say in an earlier post that I believe that Language is our weakness, both in available words and the understanding and use of these words.
However I continue to try to explain what I think. I think that we are arguing at cross purposes. What you have said, Methinks you are confusing at least one thing in regard to the effects of man being in his "natural" state, i.e., "unregenerate". Total Depravity doesn't nullify a person's intellect; the ability to think or comprehend. Some of the most brilliant minds born on this earth were unregenerate God haters. Being unregenerate means that one's "predisposition/inclination" is opposed to God and all that is good (aka: God's prescriptive will, His law). Put in the vernacular, unregenerate men hate God and anything that is holy, pure and good. (cf. Rom 8:7, 8; Eph 4:17-19) Now, as to the topic at hand, whether an unregenerate man can understand something of God, it is more than clear from Romans 1:

is not outside of what I believe, persons who are unregenerated always seem to fall short in their knowledge of GOD owing to all of what is stated in the scriptures. Who He is, where He is, How to contact Him. Yes intellectual reasoning can summarize that there is a God who made all this, and there are inate feelings (placed there by God as the scripture suggests) that evoke a need to recognise GOD and to find out the Truth and this Truth is only present in the Bible, which is of best use to the regenerated mind. I have not offered an excuse to the unregenerated, or argued that they are excused by virtue of being unregenerated, God prompts every one to realise that there is a GOD above all things and above all imaginations. I have also said that the way to the Truth about God (if it is being sought after) is found in the Bible and it would be more fruitful as the seeker becomes regenerated. Cautioning that one should not seek to intellectually comprehend the things od GOD outside of Gods way.

I hope I did better this time.
Respectfully,
Roy

Roy,

Do you believe an unregenerate person seeks after God and then becomes regenerated?


Wes

Wes,
Are we still within the topic of the post, I am trying to conform to the rules.

But here is what I believe, genuine pursuit of the things of God begins from within each seeker by GOD John 6:44-46, &65.

Roy.

I think we're safely within the forum rules for this thread since the topic is about God's sovereignty. I remain confused by the terms you are using about a seeker pursuing the things of God. I don't want to misunderstand you or get hung up on semantics however the verses in John you referenced say that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. So help me understand how that fits what you are trying to convey.


Wes

There is a school of thought that says that once you are elected by God that over night you become familiar with the things of God and you have nothing to do except wait until the Lord comes or you go to meet him. I believe that this is not supported by bible text. So my use of the words pursuit and seek which are pretty much interchangeable, speaks to the way in which GOD draws you unto himself. Every one is born into sin and you know the rest, and GOD I believe from bible text knows exactly who will complete the race and who will not so from HIS point of view it does not matter how the road gets ahead of the person who is among the elect.

But from our point of view in a practical sense we feel a pull that makes us want to attend church if we did not before, makes us want to enquire about the things of GOD and how to be saved from our sins (whether it is in the format of church message or someone speaking at work at a gathering etc. when we begin to feel this drawing) and at a point in our minds when this pulling or drawing from God causes us to actively seek out the things of GOD then I believe it can be termed as a pursuit of some sort.

Not that I believe that a person can of their own feelings, outside of GOD's intervention can just decide to seek the Lord. No. Now I dont profess to be a great writer who is capable of expertly explaining himself so I know that my posts must be dificult to comprehend sometimes especially since I may use words in a context that you may not. Could be a cultural thing <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" /> I hope I did better this time.

Roy

Roy,

You did better.<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/applause.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for elaborating on that. Unless the Lord intervenes no one would seek Him.

That means that regeneration happens before man seeks God and the Lord is the one pursuing or seeking the lost not the other way around. Romans 3:11 tells us that no one seeks after God. Thankfully God predestines, calls, justifies, and glorifies those who love Him. It is His plan of sovereign saving grace, enabling all who now believe to trace their faith and salvation back to an eternal decision by God to bring them to glory!


Wes