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#29670 - Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:59 PM Re: Double predestination and Romans 11  
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Speratus does God use means to ensure His work of providence is carried out? Now, when did God devise these means? Did He foreordain them? If God does not stop these means does it not mean that in some form (by eternal decree) He is involved in reprobation.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
#29671 - Thu Dec 15, 2005 12:33 AM Re: Double predestination  
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Well I've shown you my article and you've shown me yours. Now tell me again how section 66 deals with regard to reprobation? I don't think (unless I missed it somehow)that we are talking about the same quote.


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
#29672 - Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:42 AM Re: Double predestination and Romans 11 [Re: J_Edwards]  

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J_Edwards said:
Speratus does God use means to ensure His work of providence is carried out? Now, when did God devise these means? Did He foreordain them? If God does not stop these means does it not mean that in some form (by eternal decree) He is involved in reprobation.


To offer saving grace to all and to give the Holy Spirit who works saving faith when and where He pleases.
Before the worlds.
Yes
It is not will of God that any should despise preaching and the Sacraments. God hardens and reprobates those who reject the Word and resist the Holy Ghost (e.g., unworthy guests eat and drink damnation not discerning the Lord's body).

#29673 - Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:14 AM Re: Double predestination [Re: Peter]  

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Boanerges said:
Well I've shown you my article and you've shown me yours. Now tell me again how section 66 deals with regard to reprobation? I don't think (unless I missed it somehow)that we are talking about the same quote.


Please check the location of the footnote within Section 66. The Calvinists Mattson and Cole are referring to the same passage in "Bondage of the Will" but Cole and you draw opposing conclusions regarding Luther's intent concerning reprobation.

Quote
Mattson translationHere, God Incarnate says: 'I would, and thou wouldst not.' God Incarnate, I repeat, was sent for this purpose, to will, say, do, suffer, and offer to all men, all that is necessary for salvation; albeit He offends many who, being abandoned or hardened by God's secret will of Majesty, do not receive Him thus willing, speaking, doing and offering. . . .It belongs to the same God Incarnate to weep, lament, and groan over the perdition of the ungodly, though that will of Majesty purposely leaves and reprobates some to perish. Nor is it for us to ask why He does so, but to stand in awe of God, Who can do, and wills to do such things.


Quote
Cole translationThe God Incarnate, then, here speaks thus—"I WOULDand THOU WOULDST NOT!" The God Incarnate,—I say, was sent for this purpose—that He might desire, speak, do, suffer, and offer unto all, all things that are necessary unto salvation, although He should offend many, who, being either left or hardened by that secret will of Majesty, should not receive Him thus desiring, speaking, doing, and offering: as John i. 5, saith, "The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not." And again, "He came unto His own, and His own received Him not." (11.) It belongs also to this same God Incarnate, to weep, to lament, and to sigh over the perdition of the wicked, even while that will of Majesty, from purpose, leaves and reprobates some, that they might perish. Nor does it become us to inquire why He does so, but to revere that God who can do, and wills to do, such things.

Last edited by speratus; Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:29 AM.
#29674 - Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:29 AM Re: Double predestination  
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speratus said:
Joe K asks,

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What purpose would you like to look for Sperry?


If God's purpose is for all things to work together for the good of elect, should we not expect that the reprobate have some role in accomplishing that good? So, God's foreordination would be more than simply causing people to sin or choosing to pass by so that He can damn them?

Quote
Do you have a mutible God? One who hates with an ever;asting hatred, then loves with an everlasting love? If everything is created by God, then how can satan create one to be a vessel of dishonor? Nowhere does scripture hint at this.


God is not mutable but man is. Sin, which God truly hates, is not of the essence of man. Pre-fall and post-glorification man don't have it.

Adam was made in the image of God, a vessel of honor, without sin. When Adam fell, he lost the image of God and became a vessel of dishonor. The sin of Adam was imputed to all of Adam's seed who are regarded as vessels of dishonor even before they sin. However, in believers, such as Jacob, the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them and God regards them as vessels of honor and objects of love.

Satan is the father of unbelievers (John 8:42-45). However, Adam made himself and his seed vessels of dishonor (Romans 5:12). God foreordained the fall but did not cause it.
Quote
Can a sheep become a goat or a goat become a sheep? NO!!!!


Yes, Adam was a sheep who became a goat. The elect will become sheep.



No, sheep are never goats, and goats never become sheep sperry. You have it backwards, God does not impute the ROC then declare the vessel as honorable, God fist loved them from eternity, this is why they receive the blood of Christ and His righteoussness.

How do the reprobate relate to the lives of the elect? This is a good question. Some like Herman Hoeksema have attempted to speak of them as a second ransom, I am not in agreement with this completely though.

I am satified that Gods purpose are first and foremost to Glorify Him. And His justice is glorified in the damnation of the elect.

Read the following please:

the reprobate are always damned to eternal hell in the way of their own sin. It is true that God determined what their final end would be -- and that He did so before they were ever born. In what other way could one possibly interpret the passages quoted earlier? But the wicked are definitely cast into the torments of hell because of their own evil acts. Never can they point their finger at God, declaring, "God has forced me to do that which was contrary to His will; the fault therefore lies with God and not with me." The wicked reprobate consciously and willingly sin, and for that sin they shall surely be cast into eternal desolation.
One of the many Scriptural passages which indicate this, is found in Luke 11:49-51, "Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; from the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation."

They do serve the purpose of the elect. Look at the crucifiction of Christ? This, if the only reason, is enough for me.


Acts 4:27-28, "for of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together for to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."


There never was a sinner half as big as Christ is as a Savior.
#29675 - Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:42 AM Re: Double predestination and Romans 11  
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Quote
speratus said:
Quote
J_Edwards said:
Speratus does God use means to ensure His work of providence is carried out? Now, when did God devise these means? Did He foreordain them? If God does not stop these means does it not mean that in some form (by eternal decree) He is involved in reprobation.


To offer saving grace to all and to give the Holy Spirit who works saving faith when and where He pleases.
Before the worlds.
Yes
It is not will of God that any should despise preaching and the Sacraments. God hardens and reprobates those who reject the Word and resist the Holy Ghost (e.g., unworthy guests eat and drink damnation not discerning the Lord's body).

But, as now you concur God foreordained these means "Before the worlds." What do you call this foreordaining? Could we call this reprobation? If not, what do you call it and give references to the term?


Reformed and Always Reforming,
#29676 - Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:50 PM Re: Double predestination [Re: Joe k]  

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Joe k said:

No, sheep are never goats, and goats never become sheep sperry. You have it backwards, God does not impute the ROC then declare the vessel as honorable, God fist loved them from eternity, this is why they receive the blood of Christ and His righteoussness.


Eternal justification?

Quote
How do the reprobate relate to the lives of the elect? This is a good question. Some like Herman Hoeksema have attempted to speak of them as a second ransom, I am not in agreement with this completely though.


God's foreknowledge controls the actions of evil men and puts a limitation on them so that they minister to the salvation of the elect.

#29677 - Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:19 PM Re: Double predestination and Romans 11 [Re: J_Edwards]  

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J_Edwards said:
But, as now you concur God foreordained these means "Before the worlds." What do you call this foreordaining? Could we call this reprobation? If not, what do you call it and give references to the term?


The Word and Sacraments are means of grace not means of damnation. God does not foreordain them for the purpose of creating evil in men in order to damn them. Evil men in their faithless use of the Word and Sacraments load themselves with righteous judgment.

#29678 - Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:18 PM Re: Double predestination  
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Quote
speratus said:
Quote
Joe k asked:
How do the reprobate relate to the lives of the elect? This is a good question. Some like Herman Hoeksema have attempted to speak of them as a second ransom, I am not in agreement with this completely though.


God's foreknowledge controls the actions of evil men and puts a limitation on them so that they minister to the salvation of the elect.

God's "foreknowledge" originates from His eternal foreordination. Because God foreordained all things, therefore He knows all things. Secondly, foreknowledge in the Scriptures in regard to the elect is not to be misconstrued and reduced to that which semi-Pelagians/Arminians teach, i.e., foreknowledge=prescience; bare knowledge of facts. The Bible's definition of foreknowledge of the elect is "foreloved", i.e., God set His affections upon those whom He desired to save in Christ. Thirdly, the Bible nowhere teaches that foreknowledge "controls" anything. All things are "controlled", i.e., providentially determined by God's decretive will.

Thus, God decreed that some men would be saved and that the rest would be damned. He predestinated them whom He foreknew[loved] (Rom 8:29, 30) which is election. He hated those whom He determined to consign to perdition not having foreknown[loved] them which is reprobation. The logic is inescapable. Let God be true and all men liars.

In His grace,


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#29679 - Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:39 PM Re: Double predestination and Romans 11  
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speratus said:
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J_Edwards said:
But, as now you concur God foreordained these means "Before the worlds." What do you call this foreordaining? Could we call this reprobation? If not, what do you call it and give references to the term?


The Word and Sacraments are means of grace not means of damnation. God does not foreordain them for the purpose of creating evil in men in order to damn them. Evil men in their faithless use of the Word and Sacraments load themselves with righteous judgment.

So are you saying God never uses ANY means to accomplish His plan in the non-elect? (Exod 9:15-16; Josh 11:18-20; Prov 16:4; Isaiah 6:10; John 12:37-40; Rom 9:17). If God uses means when were these means foreordained?


Reformed and Always Reforming,
#29680 - Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:43 AM Re: Double predestination and Romans 11  
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At least you are consistent, I haven't seen you answer a question of this nature directly yet.

#29681 - Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:20 AM Re: Double predestination and Romans 11 [Re: J_Edwards]  

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J_Edwards said:
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speratus said:
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J_Edwards said:
But, as now you concur God foreordained these means "Before the worlds." What do you call this foreordaining? Could we call this reprobation? If not, what do you call it and give references to the term?


The Word and Sacraments are means of grace not means of damnation. God does not foreordain them for the purpose of creating evil in men in order to damn them. Evil men in their faithless use of the Word and Sacraments load themselves with righteous judgment.

So are you saying God never uses ANY means to accomplish His plan in the non-elect? (Exod 9:15-16; Josh 11:18-20; Prov 16:4; Isaiah 6:10; John 12:37-40; Rom 9:17). If God uses means when were these means foreordained?


Your citations have the common thread of a pronouncement of judicial hardening. If people maliciously reject God's offers of salvation, He surrenders them to their evil will. He punishes them with temporal and eternal judgments. Is this rebuking of sin foreordained? Yes. Is it done for the purpose of causing the sinner to sin even more? No.

In scripture, there are two great principles of preaching, law and gospel. Every preaching that rebukes sin is law. Every preaching of the grace of God in Christ is gospel. The law is preached to impenitant sinners; the gospel is preached to sinners who are troubled because of their sins.

The preaching of the means of grace (i.e., Word and Sacraments) is a preaching of the gospel not of the law.

Last edited by speratus; Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:52 AM.
#29682 - Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:24 AM Re: Double predestination and Romans 11  
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Is this rebuking of sin foreordained? Yes.

Thank you.


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#29683 - Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:42 AM Re: Double predestination and Romans 11 [Re: J_Edwards]  
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Sperry:

Did you read the article I posted from GH Kerstner? If not, immediately read it. Then come and discuss.


There never was a sinner half as big as Christ is as a Savior.
#29684 - Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:42 AM Re: Double predestination  
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Eternal justification?


No. Eternal love

Quote


God's foreknowledge controls the actions of evil men and puts a limitation on them so that they minister to the salvation of the elect.


What does this mean? "minister to the salvaiton of the elect?'


There never was a sinner half as big as Christ is as a Savior.
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