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"In Statu Confessionis" #30432
Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:39 PM
Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:39 PM

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J Edwards posts:

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Speratus, once said, ”1 Cor. 11:18-22 goes beyond that. There must be no divisions.” He strengthens his argument later and says, “The holy Catholic Church is without any division, continues stedfastly in the Apostle's doctrine and in breaking of bread, marks and avoids those who cause divisions and offenses, etc.” He then adds, “Most Protestants go to churches that commune everyone without exception. Even in churches that require communicants to give an account of their faith, the examination is often so brief that basic tenets of Christianity are omitted. Are such churches communions of saints or public restaurants? May a Christian, in good conscience, commune at these churches?” He adds, “If the visitor belongs to a church that teaches false doctrine, the elders may ask why the visitor has chosen to associate himself with a church that teaches error.”Thus, you must be in "Status Confusion" vs. "Status Confessionis."

Speratus, now we all wonder why you have choosen to be a member of the LCMS when with your own post you state, "Their departures from scriptural teachings are intolerable?" One wonders if you are or even may have communion.


No, I may not commune at LCMS churches, not because I have been excluded, but because I have excluded myself. According to the LCMS 1943 Explanation of Luther's Small Catechism, q327, "What do we ask of all those who wish to commune at our altars? We ask that they make their intention known to the pastor, so that he may have ooportunity to speak to them in the interest of their spiritual welfare." But this is not being done at most LCMS churches and the failure to examine communicants is causing divisions. Known errorists, such as Pastor David Benke who is most unrepentant of his participation in idolatrous worship at Yankee Stadium, are permitted to commune at LCMS altars.

LCMS was not always heterodox and the aim of "In Statu Confessionis" is to restore it to orthodoxy. The confessional basis is the Formula, SD, Adiaphora, Para. 10:

Quote
We believe, teach, and confess also that at the time of confession [when a confession of the heavenly truth is required], when the enemies of God's Word desire to suppress the pure doctrine of the holy Gospel, the entire congregation of God, yea, every Christian, but especially the ministers of the Word, as the leaders of the congregation of God [as those whom God has appointed to rule His Church], are bound by God's Word to confess freely and openly the [godly] doctrine, and what belongs to the whole of [pure] religion, not only in words, but also in works and with deeds; and that then, in this case, even in such [things truly and of themselves] adiaphora, they must not yield to the adversaries, or permit these [adiaphora] to be forced upon them by their enemies, whether by violence or cunning, to the detriment of the true worship of God and the introduction and sanction of idolatry.


The "deeds" usually require a break in close fellowship. For a history of "In Status Confessionis" in both the Lutheran and Reformed churches, please refer to this article.. Although I disagree with the author's conclusions regarding the applicability of the State of Confession, it is, nonetheless, very informative.

Re: "In Statu Confessionis" #30433
Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:21 AM
Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:21 AM
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At least you are being consistent in not taking communion, however, why have you not left the church? YOU stated, "Their departures from scriptural teachings are intolerable?" and yet remain though you said;

Speratus, once said, ”1 Cor. 11:18-22 goes beyond that. There must be no divisions.” He strengthens his argument later and says, “The holy Catholic Church is without any division, continues stedfastly in the Apostle's doctrine and in breaking of bread, marks and avoids those who cause divisions and offenses, etc.” He then adds, “Most Protestants go to churches that commune everyone without exception. Even in churches that require communicants to give an account of their faith, the examination is often so brief that basic tenets of Christianity are omitted. Are such churches communions of saints or public restaurants? May a Christian, in good conscience, commune at these churches?” He adds, “If the visitor belongs to a church that teaches false doctrine, the elders may ask why the visitor has chosen to associate himself with a church that teaches error.
[Linked Image]


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: "In Statu Confessionis" [Re: J_Edwards] #30434
Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:58 AM
Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:58 AM

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Quote
J_Edwards said:
At least you are being consistent in not taking communion, however, why have you not left the church?


Quote
The Case for Remaining in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod in a State of Confessional Protest by Curtis A. Peterson
The state of confessional protest is an attempt to maintain a clear conscience and an effective confessional, Biblical and confessing stand in a deteriorating theological situation. It assumes that two assertions are true:
1. that the church body has become heterodox, and
2. that the possibility still exists, or seems to exist, that this heterodox situation can be reversed.
Obviously, if the heterodox situation is totally irreversible, one would have to leave in order to remain loyal to Christ and His Word. If the church body is not heterodox, a state of confessional protest is not necessary. But, such a stance becomes mandatory if the church is heterodox in order to avoid the sin of unionism. . .

Re: "In Statu Confessionis" #30435
Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:51 PM
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Speratus, you are "once again" revealing your inconsistency of thought. First, in the other string of posts you say, LEAVE, LEAVE, LEAVE, and now you say you are EXEMPT, EXEMPT, EXEMPT until it is decided later, though you stated, "Their departures from scriptural teachings are intolerable."

Take it from someone who hates what you post, but loves you none-the-less: (1) leave the church, (2) visit/join another church, (3) get away from all catechisms for at least 3 years, and (4) study the Scripture alone for 3 years, using commentaries that members of the Highway will assist you to locate, and see if your life changes. If not, then go back to the Lutherans. They should be deciding your case about that time.

Just a Thought.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: "In Statu Confessionis" [Re: J_Edwards] #30436
Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:17 AM
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Horton of ACE writes, concerning the period after the Lutheran and Reformed confessions were written and before the Council of Trent (In Statu Confessionis), that Calvinists and Lutherans considered themselves Roman Catholics even though the Pope was slaughtering their fellow Protestants by the thousands. It was only after the Roman Church declared itself to be "not reformable" (Council of Trent) that Protestants "packed their bags" from Rome.

Were the Calvinists and Lutherans wrong to believe during this interim period of "In Statu Confessionis" that the heresies of Rome could be reversed?

Re: "In Statu Confessionis" #30437
Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:15 PM
Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:15 PM
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Quote
speratus said:
Horton of ACE writes, concerning the period after the Lutheran and Reformed confessions were written and before the Council of Trent (In Statu Confessionis), that Calvinists and Lutherans considered themselves Roman Catholics even though the Pope was slaughtering their fellow Protestants by the thousands. It was only after the Roman Church declared itself to be "not reformable" (Council of Trent) that Protestants "packed their bags" from Rome.

Were the Calvinists and Lutherans wrong to believe during this interim period of "In Statu Confessionis" that the heresies of Rome could be reversed?

While they "may" have considered themselves Roman Catholics they: (1) separated from the RC Church and met out side of RC world, (2) had fellowship with others of like mind, (3) had the Lord's Table regularly, and (4) had teaching that countermanded what was taught in RC world.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: "In Statu Confessionis" [Re: J_Edwards] #30438
Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:38 AM
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The Protestant churches were willing to send delegates to a church council if it would meet in a neutral territory not dominated by the Pope. LCMS ministers and laymen have attended and voted at past synod conventions even though they had separated themselves from the LCMS through "In Statu Confessionis" .

Could elders and laymen of a Presbyterian synod declare themselves in a state of confession? Could they stop all funding and churchly fellowship with the synod structure and continue their protest until they were either removed or until it became clear that the synod was not reformable? Would such actions on their part be consistent with scripture and the WCF?

Re: "In Statu Confessionis" #30439
Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:22 AM
Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:22 AM
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Quote
Speratus states,

The Protestant churches were willing to send delegates to a church council if it would meet in a neutral territory not dominated by the Pope.

Yes, they had to SEND delegates. The delegates were not already attending the Church where false doctrine, a false belief of the sacraments, and a false system of church government was in place. They separated themselves from that which they saw as false and attempted change from the outside …

Quote
Speratus states,

Could elders and laymen of a Presbyterian synod declare themselves in a state of confession? Could they stop all funding and churchly fellowship with the synod structure and continue their protest until they were either removed or until it became clear that the synod was not reformable? Would such actions on their part be consistent with scripture and the WCF?

Yes, if the denomination is going apostate, et. al. RC Sproul use to be PCA until he discovered so much inconsistency within the PCA that he withdrew and is now independent. However, his influence is still weighty within PCA circles and thus he is still effecting change.

Speratus, the question is not about them, but about YOU. By YOUR own admission some of the practices of YOUR own denomination are “intolerable.” Are they heresy or just small complaints? Has YOUR denomination left her first love and embraced some of the things of this world? YOUR discovery and declaration is not by accident and combined with the fact that God in His providence brought you to the Highway is not either. Here YOU have attempted to defend other Lutheran views and have found them “wanting” to say the least. Think of the timing of everything that is taking place! YOU need to look at the big picture of what God is doing in YOUR life and not just all these things as being disconnected. God in His sovereignty is doing His work. This continues to be a matter of prayer for you Speratus. May YE hear what the Spirit says unto His church.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: "In Statu Confessionis" [Re: J_Edwards] #30440
Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:53 PM
Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:53 PM

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Quote
J_Edwards said:
Quote
Speratus states,

Could elders and laymen of a Presbyterian synod declare themselves in a state of confession? Could they stop all funding and churchly fellowship with the synod structure and continue their protest until they were either removed or until it became clear that the synod was not reformable? Would such actions on their part be consistent with scripture and the WCF?

Yes, if the denomination is going apostate, et. al. RC Sproul use to be PCA until he discovered so much inconsistency within the PCA that he withdrew and is now independent. However, his influence is still weighty within PCA circles and thus he is still effecting change.


Does he continue churchly fellowship (share preaching, prayers, and communion) with all or some PCA churches? If some and not all, would that not be selective fellowship with those who have compromised their faith by remaining in the PCA? If all, did he really withdraw?

Re: "In Statu Confessionis" #30441
Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:52 PM
Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:52 PM
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Speratus, I do not make Sproul's schedule. Moreover, this is about YOU and not Sproul! However, I will state that there is nothing wrong with having fellowship with individuals from different denominations. If that were the case then why do you participate here on the Highway with a multitude of denominations being represented?

No matter what excuse you maintain, apparently you are content not having a Church. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/broke.gif" alt="" />


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: "In Statu Confessionis" [Re: J_Edwards] #30442
Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:15 AM
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I have a Church, the communion of saints, which exists on earth with one faith and one baptism agreeing in love without any schism and division. I was made a member of this Church by the preaching and calling of the Holy Ghost.

For theological discussion, it is only necessary that there be agreement on the authority of scripture. I don't participate in the Prayer forum which assumes a unity of Reformed faith. But I am willing to pray with you and the members of this forum whenever and wherever there is a unity of faith. And I do pray with you, the members of this forum, and all the company of heaven at all times and all places in the communion of pure saints washed in the blood of Christ.


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