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"The Origin, Essence and Purpose of Man" #30981
Tue Jan 31, 2006 7:43 PM
Tue Jan 31, 2006 7:43 PM
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"The Origin, Essence and Purpose of Man"
Herman Bavinck

A third particular of this second chapter of Genesis is the gift of the woman to the man and the institution of marriage. Adam had received much. Though formed out of the dust of the earth, he was nevertheless a bearer of the image of God. He was placed in a garden which was a place of loveliness and was richly supplied with everything good to behold and to eat. He received the pleasant task of dressing the garden and subduing the earth, and in this he had to walk in accordance with the commandment of God, to eat freely of every tree except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. But no matter how richly favored and how grateful, that first man was not satisfied, not fulfilled. The cause is indicated to him by God Himself. It lies in his solitude. It is not good for the man that he should be alone. He is not so constituted, he was not created that way. His nature inclines to the social he wants company. He must be able to express himself, reveal himself, and give himself. He must be able to pour out his heart, to give form to his feelings. He must share his awarenesses with a being who can understand him and can feel and live along with him. Solitude is poverty, forsakenness, gradual pining and wasting away. How lonesome it is to be alone!


I am not sure if I agree with this statement by Bavinck in the bold print. Adam had fellowship with God so why would he desire anything? That would have been covetousness. It was God who said "It is not good for the man that he should be alone." not Adam.

Re: "The Origin, Essence and Purpose of Man" [Re: William] #30982
Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:02 PM
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Adam had fellowship with God so why would he desire anything? That would have been covetousness. It was God who said "It is not good for the man that he should be alone." not Adam.

If it was covetous, then God sinned--for He fulfilled Adam's so-called "covetousness"!!! You also by implication make marriage, which God ordained, a sin!!! Before sin entered, could there not be complete fellowship with God within marriage (Matt 18:20)?

Is there not perfect communion within the relationship of the Trinity itself? Adam was not complete until he had a help-meet (just as the Trinity is not complete without the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost--though each is complete within themself--but this is another series of posts). If he was not complete (there is a certain completeness in being "one" and another in being "two") how could he have "full" fellowship with God without his God-ordained companion? Man was always met to have a help-meet, except in those God appointed special cases ....

Would not Adam looking at the nature of things (i.e. male and female), have wondered where his counterpart was? Why did not Adam "argue" (which one may do without sin, i.e. remember Lot's case) with God? Instead Adam participated with Him (Gen 2:20). Did not Adam declare that he was "one" (Gen 2:24) with his wife, revealing the union that God prepared was "very good" (Gen 1:31)?

Honestly, IMO Adam did not have time to be lonely initially--God kept him just a little busy (thus, Bavinck probably should have used the phrase "would have been lonely," which I believe is his intent by the rest of what you cited .... ). IMO I think it is safe to say, Adam would have been lonely for God himself said, "It is not good that the man should be alone" (Gen 2:18).

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/my2cents.gif" alt="" />


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: "The Origin, Essence and Purpose of Man" [Re: J_Edwards] #30983
Sat Feb 04, 2006 10:01 PM
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J_Edwards said:

Quote
William said: Adam had fellowship with God so why would he desire anything? That would have been covetousness. It was God who said "It is not good for the man that he should be alone." not Adam.


Honestly, IMO Adam did not have time to be lonely initially--God kept him just a little busy (thus, Bavinck probably should have used the phrase "would have been lonely," which I believe is his intent by the rest of what you cited .... ). IMO I think it is safe to say, Adam would have been lonely for God himself said, "It is not good that the man should be alone" (Gen 2:18).



J_Edwards

I kindly say that Adam (the man) walked with God and God walked with Adam. Adam loved God and God loved Adam. Adam had fellowship with God and God fellowship with Adam. Adam worked for God because he loved God not because God kept him busy out of a slavish fear but because Adam loved God and was greatful for all God had given him. Yes Adam needed an Eve but Eve had not yet been given. Once again it was God who said "It is not good for the man that he should be alone" Adam was perfectly happy with knowing God. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bigglasses.gif" alt="" />

Re: "The Origin, Essence and Purpose of Man" [Re: William] #30984
Sat Feb 04, 2006 10:21 PM
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I kindly say that Adam (the man) walked with God and God walked with Adam. Adam loved God and God loved Adam. Adam had fellowship with God and God fellowship with Adam. Adam worked for God because he loved God not because God kept him busy out of a slavish fear but because Adam loved God and was greatful for all God had given him. Yes Adam needed an Eve but Eve had not yet been given. Once again it was God who said "It is not good for the man that he should be alone" Adam was perfectly happy with knowing God.

All this is really very easy. Did God make Adam originally to be alone or to have a help-meet? Did God change His mind after the original creation? Is God a liar saying that Adam should not be alone? Does God say anything without a just cause? God never created Adam just for fellowship with Himself, He always intended for Adam to have fellowship with Eve. It was not that Adam was dissatisfied with his fellowship with God, but rather the way God made Adam in the first place ....

Though some thing or someone (save God) is perfect it can still mature. Though Adam walked with God his fellowship was not yet complete. As I have pointed out on several occasions here Adam, though he walked with God was not experiencing the fullness of fellowship, for as the Scripture says, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13). No matter how much Adam ever walked with God, he never experienced this ... until Christ came on the scene as the atonement for His elect.

You need to understand that though Adam was created perfect, he was not done maturing and growing. Just because something is perfect, it can still grow--look at the rest of creation--God said it was very good, but it kept maturing .... Adam kept maturing though he was created perfect ..... In glory we will continue to grow as well...


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Re: "The Origin, Essence and Purpose of Man" [Re: J_Edwards] #30985
Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:51 PM
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Although I agree that Adam was created perfect.... his existence, even with communion with God was incomplete due to the very nature with which God had given him, I don't believe "maturity" is relevant. However, as you stated, it was God's intention that man would be joined to a "help-meet" which would then make him complete in one sense. God is triune; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And within that economic Trinity there is a fullness of communion among the three Persons. Thus, when God created Adam "in His own image", it logical follows that Adam too would only experience the fullness of communion when joined with one that was of his own body and who also would possess the "imago dei".

Eunuchs and celibacy are exceptions and are not the "normal" life God intended for mankind. Thus, Adam could never have been "happy" (fulfilled) unless there was an Eve any more than the Son could be "happy" (if it is even proper to speak in this manner) without the Father and Holy Spirit.

That's my [Linked Image]


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Re: "The Origin, Essence and Purpose of Man" [Re: Pilgrim] #30986
Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:05 AM
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I don't believe "maturity" is relevant.

While I agree with the rest of your post (as we said the same thing in different ways), I still believe maturity is relevant primary because William thinks that "because" Adam was walking with God that he does not need to grow in other areas as well ..... grow as in his relationship with other humans, etc. William's premise was because Adam walked with God he needed nothing else, which is indeed not true, for Adam was made to mature in every area of his life and not just with his relationship with God .....


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: "The Origin, Essence and Purpose of Man" [Re: J_Edwards] #30987
Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:17 AM
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Okay....... I see where you are coming from on the "maturity" issue, although I still disagree that "maturity" is relevant in regard to the initial creation of Adam where it was God's intention that man not be alone. Even if Adam had lived 1 million years before Eve was created, Adam would not have been 100% happy (complete), despite the fact that he would have walked with God during that time. I think the following text goes to prove the point: Genesis 1:27 (ASV) "And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; <span style="background-color:yellow">male and female created he them</span>.

Granted, maturity is a relevant factor when considering "relationship" in general, e.g., although Adam had a near perfect relationship with God, it was hardly "mature", i.e., there was MUCH more that Adam had to experience; I would say infinitely so since man can never exhaust what is to be learned about God even relationally. Likewise, couples "mature" throughout their lifetimes in their human relationships.

So, I'm with you 99.99999% on this one. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,


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Re: "The Origin, Essence and Purpose of Man" [Re: Pilgrim] #30988
Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:21 AM
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So, I'm with you 99.99999% on this one. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

See you are almost perfect <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: "The Origin, Essence and Purpose of Man" [Re: Pilgrim] #30989
Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:35 PM
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OK I can see what both you and J_E are saying. But let me ask this is loneliness in the creature a sin or an emotion? The same goes for the term dissatisfied?

Re: "The Origin, Essence and Purpose of Man" [Re: William] #30990
Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:43 PM
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William said:
OK I can see what both you and J_E are saying. But let me ask this is loneliness in the creature a sin or an emotion? The same goes for the term dissatisfied?

It is not sin, as God made His creation perfect. However, God gave Adam the desire to have a wife and thus if God would not have supplied Eve, then it could have become sin. Adam could have become sinfully dissatisfied ..... However, God knows all and not only supplied the godly desire, but the perfect satisfaction of it as well.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: "The Origin, Essence and Purpose of Man" [Re: William] #30991
Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:27 PM
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William said:
OK I can see what both you and J_E are saying. But let me ask this is loneliness in the creature a sin or an emotion? The same goes for the term dissatisfied?

Loneliness nor dissatisfaction is a sin, in and of itself. One can be and should be dissatisfied with their lack of godliness, expressions of love to others, faithlessness in speaking the truth when opportunities arise, etc. One can also be lonely in regard to wanting to see Christ face-to-face and yearn for the day when they can walk in gladness with God on the New Earth. One can also be lonely if one's loved one is away for any period of time, etc.

Perhaps this article will help to explain this more: Discontentment by Guy Finnie.

In His Grace,


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Re: "The Origin, Essence and Purpose of Man" [Re: J_Edwards] #30992
Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:31 PM
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J_Edwards said:
It is not sin, as God made His creation perfect.


You and HH have said this repeatedly. What do you mean perfect? I hope youare not referring to created without need of Christ. He was not morally perfect.

God said the light was good also, is light, water, etc etc morally pefect?

JK


There never was a sinner half as big as Christ is as a Savior.
Re: "The Origin, Essence and Purpose of Man" [Re: Joe k] #30993
Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:14 PM
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Joe k said:
You [J_Edwards] and HH have said this repeatedly. What do you mean perfect? I hope youare not referring to created without need of Christ. He was not morally perfect.

God said the light was good also, is light, water, etc etc morally pefect?

You can add me to that duo who believes that Adam was created "perfect". By that "I" mean that Adam was in fact "morally perfect"; what else could he have been? Unless, of course, you are going to insist that Adam was created morally imperfect; with sin? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" /> God created Adam perfect in this sense that he was morally perfect but he was not fully developed in every area of his being, e.g., his knowledge of God, experience of himself or his surroundings, etc. But he was nonetheless perfect, in that he was created as God had intended him to be.

As to your equating "light and water" with Adam in regard to being "morally perfect", that's rather silly don't you think? Man was made in the "imago dei" and as such he was a spiritual/moral being endowed with a soul, which is a far different thing than "light" or "water" which has no morality, they not having been created with a soul. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />

Obviously, you are going to disagree with some of this or perhaps even all. So what is your personal "take" on this issue? And are there others who would share your view and to whom you could point me/us so we could read what they wrote? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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Re: "The Origin, Essence and Purpose of Man" [Re: Pilgrim] #30994
Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:34 PM
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I have a hard time seeing in the writ where it states morally perfect, even implicently. Then fell from grace. Just rings of Pelagious to me. Morally perfect to me means could not sin. So my definition maybe wrong. And the Hebrew very good, does not necessarily mean morally perfect.

JPK


There never was a sinner half as big as Christ is as a Savior.
Re: "The Origin, Essence and Purpose of Man" [Re: Joe k] #30995
Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:45 PM
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Joe k said:


I have a hard time seeing in the writ where it states morally perfect, even implicently. Then fell from grace. Just rings of Pelagious to me. Morally perfect to me means could not sin. So my definition maybe wrong. And the Hebrew very good, does not necessarily mean morally perfect.

JPK


Well, if Adam was without sin prior to the fall . . . was he then morally imperfect?


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.

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