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#32191 - Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:03 AM So whats the difference?  
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In my somewhat limited experience with other denominations--having the typical SBC paranoia about "other churches"--I've sort of lumped churches into groups. There's the charismatic bunch which I wouldn't touch with a hot poker. And there's the "Reformed" group which to me consists of Prebyterians and Lutherans, etc. I'm not sure just now who's in the etc.

Is the difference in the little things or are there major doctrinal issues that divide the reformed group? (Apparently So. Baptist used to be this way too.)

Just curious...


Josh
"...the word of God is not bound."--2 Timothy 2:9
#32192 - Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:13 AM Re: So whats the difference? [Re: doulos]  
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For some odd reason, the Baptists are closer to the Reformed than the Methodists - Wesleyans, and to some extent the Lutherans as well. Both Methodists and Lutherans believe that one can lose his/hers salvation.

I think the most distinguishing mark between the Reformed and many practicing Baptists is:

Reformed - Regeneration, faith, applied justification

Many of the Baptists: faith, regeneration, appropriated justification.


John Chaney

"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
#32193 - Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:44 PM Re: So whats the difference? [Re: doulos]  
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Quote
doulos said:
In my somewhat limited experience with other denominations--having the typical SBC paranoia about "other churches"--I've sort of lumped churches into groups. There's the charismatic bunch which I wouldn't touch with a hot poker. And there's the "Reformed" group which to me consists of Prebyterians and Lutherans, etc. I'm not sure just now who's in the etc.

Is the difference in the little things or are there major doctrinal issues that divide the reformed group? (Apparently So. Baptist used to be this way too.)

Just curious...


Put 10 baptists in a room and you get 15 opinion!!!!!!!!!!! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bananas.gif" alt="" />


There never was a sinner half as big as Christ is as a Savior.
#32194 - Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:55 PM Re: So whats the difference? [Re: doulos]  
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Quote
doulos said:
In my somewhat limited experience with other denominations--having the typical SBC paranoia about "other churches"--I've sort of lumped churches into groups. There's the charismatic bunch which I wouldn't touch with a hot poker. And there's the "Reformed" group which to me consists of Prebyterians and Lutherans, etc. I'm not sure just now who's in the etc.

Is the difference in the little things or are there major doctrinal issues that divide the reformed group? (Apparently So. Baptist used to be this way too.)

Just curious...


Lutherans have some significant differences from Reformed churches. Lutherans deny a limited atonement (and thus reprobation), and they have a more "Catholic" understanding of the sacraments, e.g., Jesus' body and blood is present with the bread and wine in communion, and baptism produces regeneration (which can be lost if the baptized doesn't continue in faith). For these reasons they are typically classified separately from the Reformed churches.

Within the Reformed churches, I'm not sure of all of the differences. I think the continental Reformed (e.g., Dutch Reformed, German Reformed, etc.) tend toward presumptive regeneration of baptized children? I'm not certain. I'm not aware of any significant theological differences. You can compare, for example, the Three Forms of Unity (Belgic Confession, Canons of Dort, Heidelberg Catechism) and the Westminster Standards (Westminster Confession, Larger and Shorter Catechisms) and they are very much in harmony.

The differences start to come up when you consider the Congregationalists and (Particular/Regular/Reformed) Baptists. In the case of the Congregationalists, the difference is one of polity. And with the Baptists, there differences are polity as well as the sacraments, especially baptism, of course. But both the Savoy Declaration (Congregationalist) and the London Confession (which is the basis for the Philadelphia Confession which I understand the first SBC churches held) are dependent on the Westminster Confession.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#32195 - Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:13 PM Re: So whats the difference? [Re: John_C]  
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Tom Offline
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Quote
John_C said:
For some odd reason, the Baptists are closer to the Reformed than the Methodists - Wesleyans, and to some extent the Lutherans as well. Both Methodists and Lutherans believe that one can lose his/hers salvation.

I think the most distinguishing mark between the Reformed and many practicing Baptists is:

Reformed - Regeneration, faith, applied justification

Many of the Baptists: faith, regeneration, appropriated justification.


You said "Many of the Baptists" so you are correct, but those who call themselves "Reformed Baptists" agree with the "Reformed" view where Regeneration comes before faith.

Tom

#32196 - Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:26 PM Re: So whats the difference? [Re: John_C]  

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Depends if the Baptist believes like most of the founders. Here is the The Abstract Of Principles set forth for Southern Seminary.
http://www.founders.org/abstract.html

#32197 - Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:09 PM Re: So whats the difference?  
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I have wondered about that myself as pertains to the difference between Reformed Baptists and other Reformed groups. I know obviously there is a difference about how baptism is regarded, but are there many Reformed Baptists now who would affirm what the London Confession of 1689 says about the Lord's Supper?
Quote
Those who, as worthy participants, outwardly eat and drink the visible bread and wine in this ordinance, at the same time receive and feed upon Christ crucified, and receive all the benefits accruing from His death. This they do really and indeed, not as if feeding upon the actual flesh and blood of a person's body, but inwardly and by faith. In the supper the body and blood of Christ are present to the faith of believers, not in any actual physical way, but in a way of spiritual apprehension, just as the bread and wine themselves are present to their outward physical senses.
What I am asking is this: would a "memorial" view of the Sacrament be more common than this view among Reformed Baptists? And I am asking for my own edification in this--not trying to debate the merits of either view.

I know the Southern Baptists that I know personally would hold to the "memorial" view--but then they are not Reformed--so I am curious about the differing positions among Baptists and how it may relate to the other Reformed groups.

Theo

#32198 - Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:53 AM Re: So whats the difference? [Re: Theo]  
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Regarding the Lord's Supper, most would say "Memorial" but frankly I don't think most of the churches I have been a part of have thought about it. Maybe the pastor, maybe the deacons if the pastor brought it up.

Regarding the confession, I've been doing some studying on the Baptist Faith and Message and it appears to have come from the New Hampshire confession. I don't know what came before that one.

Its odd, most So. Baptists will get ticked when you mention Calvinism but those who know will say the doctrines aren't much different. Reformed seems to be a much safer term.


Josh
"...the word of God is not bound."--2 Timothy 2:9
#32199 - Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:59 AM Re: So whats the difference? [Re: doulos]  
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Regarding the confession, I've been doing some studying on the Baptist Faith and Message and it appears to have come from the New Hampshire confession. I don't know what came before that one.

James Boyce, a Baptist with reformed leanings and former Professor of Systematic and Polemic in Theology at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary once (1887) stated,

Quote
The Lord's Supper is an ordinance of Jesus Christ, to be administered with the elements of bread and wine, and to be observed by his churches till the end of the world. It is in no sense a sacrifice, but is designed to commemorate his death, to confirm the faith and other graces of Christians, and to be a bond, pledge and renewal of their communion with him, and of their church fellowship.


J.L. Dagg, stated,

Quote
The Lordís Supper was designed to be a memorial of Christ, a representation that the communicant receives spiritual nourishment from Him, and token of fellowship among the communicants.

The Abstract of Principles used today by some Baptists that have reformed leanings state,

Quote
The Lord's Supper is an ordinance of Jesus Christ, to be administered with the elements of bread and wine, and to be observed by his churches till the end of the world. It is in no sense a sacrifice, but is designed to commemorate his death, to confirm the faith and other graces of Christians, and to be a bond, pledge and renewal of their communion with him, and of their church fellowship.

This view (Symbolic Commemoration or Memorialism) was popularized by Zwingli. Moreover, this viewpoint is often historically associated with the Anabaptists of the Radical Reformation (i.e., Conrad Grebel (co-founder of the Anabaptist movement and the "Father of Anabaptists") and Felix Manz (co-founder of the original Swiss Brethren Anabaptist congregation and the first martyr of the Radical Reformation), and the English Baptists.

Thus, this view has been in Baptist circles for some time.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
#32200 - Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:19 PM Re: So whats the difference? [Re: doulos]  
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Quote
doulos said:

Regarding the confession, I've been doing some studying on the Baptist Faith and Message and it appears to have come from the New Hampshire confession. I don't know what came before that one.



I assume you are referring to the 1689 LBC, the resorce I have states:

The 1689 London Baptist Confession comes principally from four sources:

A. The Westminster Confession of Faith, 1646.

B. The Savoy Declaration of Faith and Order, 1658.

C. The First London Baptist Confession (1644).

D. The work of William Collins and Nehemiah Coxe.

Of the 160 paragraphs which make up the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, 146 are directly derived from the Savoy declaration, eight are derived from the 1644 Confession and six from the editorial work Collins and Coxe.


.

#32201 - Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:57 PM Re: So whats the difference? [Re: William]  
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And the Savoy Declaration of Faith and Order (1658) is close to 90% identical to the Westminster Confession of Faith (1646). What I have found in my studies of Church History is that there are very few denominations/churches that are what their name signifies, e.g., Congregationalists, Baptists, Anglicans, Episcopals, Christian Reformed, etc., when you compare their present-day doctrinal statements to those of the founding confessions of their respective denominations. For example, and I do speak from painful experience, hand a copy of the Savoy Declaration to your typical Congregationalist, including those who are Elders, and they will either say they have never heard of it or if they have, that they adamantly disagree with its content. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />

The fact is, the overwhelming majority of PROTESTANT believers, churches and denominations which came out of the great PROTESTANT REFORMATION, were "Calvinists" in their theology. THAT is what distinguished the Protestants from the Roman State Church. Today, the overwhelming majority of non-Roman churches hold to a soteriology very much akin to Rome; aka: semi-Pelagianism and some Arminianism.

In His grace,


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#32202 - Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:27 PM Re: So whats the difference? [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Joe and doulos,

Thanks for your thoughts! I guess that is why I am confused about Baptists sometimes as there seem to be two DISTINCT strains in that denomination starting way back in the past. (I would have to say by now there may be two distinct strains in a LOT of denominations.)

As Pilgrim says, most churches now do not teach what their original confessions say--much to our great loss.

Theo

#32203 - Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:44 PM Re: So whats the difference? [Re: doulos]  
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Quote
doulos said:
Regarding the Lord's Supper, most would say "Memorial" but frankly I don't think most of the churches I have been a part of have thought about it. Maybe the pastor, maybe the deacons if the pastor brought it up.

Regarding the confession, I've been doing some studying on the Baptist Faith and Message and it appears to have come from the New Hampshire confession. I don't know what came before that one.


The Philadelphia Confession had been accepted by most (if not all?) SB churches.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
#32204 - Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:35 AM Re: So whats the difference? [Re: CovenantInBlood]  
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CovenantInBlood said:
The Philadelphia Confession had been accepted by most (if not all?) SB churches.


I'm not sure. I've been trying to trace it back and haven't had much luck. The SBC website has a comparison of the 1925, 1963, and the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message. The 1925 statement is quite clear that it's coming from an edited version of the New Hampshire confession(~1833) but past that I can't pin it down. The NH confession still has all its hard theological edges but later versions have been softened considerably.


Josh
"...the word of God is not bound."--2 Timothy 2:9
#32205 - Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:19 AM Re: So whats the difference? [Re: doulos]  
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Quote
The 1925 statement is quite clear that it's coming from an edited version of the New Hampshire confession(~1833) but past that I can't pin it down.

Have you tried these:

ANABAPTIST CONFESSIONS OF FAITH

Waldenses Confession Of Faith, 1120 And 1544
The Schleitheim Confession, 1527
Discipline Of The Church, 1527
Ridemann's Rechenschaft, 1540
The Dordrecht Confession, 1632
A Declaration Of Several People Called Anabaptists, 1659

ENGLISH BAPTIST-SEPARATIST CONFESSIONS

A True Confession, 1596
Short Confession Of Faith In Xx Articles, 1609
A Short Confession Of Faith, 1610
A Declaration Of Faith Of English People Remaining At Amsterdam, 1611
Propositions And Conclusions Concerning True Christian Religion, 1612-1614

EARLY ENGLISH BAPTIST ASSOCIATIONAL CONFESSIONS

John Spilsbury And His Confession
The First London Baptist Confession Of Faith, 1644
The First London Baptist Confession Of Faith, 1646 Edition
An Appendix To A Confession Of Faith, 1646, Benjamin Cox (Coxe)
The Faith And Practise Of Thirty Congregations, 1651
The True Gospel-Faith Declared According To The Scriptures, 1654
The Midland Confession Of Faith, 1655
The Somerset Confession Of Faith, 1656
Carter Lane Declaration Of Faith, 1757

ENGLISH BAPTIST GENERAL CONFESSIONS

The Standard Confession, 1660
The Assembly Or Second London Confession, 1677 And 1688, Approved 1689
A Short Confession Or A Brief Narrative Of Faith, 1691
The Coalheaver's Confession, 1745
Articles Of Religion Of The New Connexion, 1770

AMERICAN BAPTIST CONFESSIONS

The Philadelphia Confession, 1742
The Sandy Creek Confession, 1758
The Goatyard Declaration Of Faith, 1792
The New Hampshire Baptist Confession Of Faith, 1833
Treatise On The Faith And Practice Of The Free Will Baptists, 1834 And 1948
The Abstract Of Principles, 1858
Articles Of Faith Put Forth By The Baptist Bible Union Of America, 1923
Baptist Faith And Message, 1925
Baptist Faith And Message, 1963 W/Reports Till 2000
Cambridge Declaration, 1998

GENERAL BAPTIST CONFESSIONS

Liberty Association Articles Of Faith (1824)
General Association Articles Of Faith (1870)
General Association Articles Of Faith (1949)
A Short Confession Of Faith, In Twenty Articles, John Smyth

BAPTIST CATECHISMS

A Catechism For Babes, Or Little Ones, 1652
A Short Catechism About Baptism, 1659
Instruction For The Ignorant, Bunyan's Catechism, 1675
Benjamin Keach's Catechism, 1677
The Orthodox Catechism, 1680
A Catechism For Boys And Girls
A Catechism Or Instructions For Children And Youth
The Philadelphia Baptist Catechism
The Baptist Catechism, Charleston Association Catechism, 1813
The Baptist Scriptural Catechism, 1850
A Puritan Catechism, 1855
A Catechism For Little Children, 1864
Compend Of Christian Doctrines Held By Baptists: In Catechism, 186
A Catechism Of Bible Teaching, 1892
A Brief Catechism Of Bible Doctrine


Reformed and Always Reforming,
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