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#33132 - Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:36 PM Re: Gospel truth [Re: beloved57]  
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beloved57 Offline
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This is what Charles spurgeon said about calvinism !

Charles Haddon Spurgeon shockingly declared Calvinism is the gospel and Arminianism is heresy:
ďAnd what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer? Every heresy, if brought to the touchstone, will discover itself here. I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing elseĒ (p. 172)


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given meóthe task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
#33133 - Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:46 PM Re: Charges [Re: Kathy]  
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Quote
Kathy said:
I do not think we can fully understand certain mysteries (this being one)... I feel like throwing up my hands on this one. Donít we respond in some way? Donít we have ears? Is it a work to listen and use our intellect to process our ideas, become convicted of the need for repentance, etc? I also believe that this is by Grace. I think these will have to be rhetorical questions... or you will be here a while.

Kathy,

1) God did NOT "predestinate creation"! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/nope.gif" alt="" /> He predestinated people unto salvation in Christ. God "foreordained" all things. But "predestination" belongs to the realm of soteriology (salvation). It may seem like all this is like splitting hairs, but it is definitely not. Biblical truth, all of God's truth is important, although some of those truths are more pressing and dependent upon the situation where they are to be applied. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

2) There are definitely "mysteries" in the Bible which cannot be comprehended in full by anyone this side of glory and perhaps they never will be. The Infinite cannot be fully comprehended by the infant mind of a created being. The fact is, we can comprehend what God has revealed for the simple fact that it was God's purpose that we do know his revealed will and that He sent the Holy Spirit to guide believers into ALL truth. So, we are capable of knowing many things and we are even required to do so. In the matter of predestination, we cannot comprehend the secret will of God, e.g., who exactly God has decreed unto salvation with 100% certainty. But we can know that He has predestinated a remnant out of Adam's fallen race to be reconciled to Him through faith in Christ. There is no "mystery" to that. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

For more on the biblical doctrine of predestination, see here: The Doctrine of Predestination.

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

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#33134 - Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:53 PM Re: Gospel truth [Re: beloved57]  
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And we here would agree 100% with Spurgeon's quote, "Calvinism is the gospel" in contradistinction to Arminianism and its false gospel. But the reverse is not true, that the Gospel is Calvinism. Again, your extremist error is preventing you from seeing this glorious truth. The Bible does NOT teach "salvation by doctrine", whether it is the semi-Pelagian/Arminian flavor of Sandemanianism or one with a Calvinistic emphasis. "A text out of context is nothing more than pretext!"

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

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#33135 - Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:50 PM Re: Charges [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Pilgrim,

I will need then to understand the difference between for-ordained and predestined.... OK.

At this moment...
QUESION: WHY/How are the elect predestined?
ANSWER: (it seems to me) "Because God said so" and will have to remain a mystery.

Do you think this can be/should be understood? That is what I meant.

So (rhetorically again) where does this leave the Gospel message/presentation?

I was viewing an online debate (elsewhere) between an Arminian and Predestination believer... The latter said this:

"It is the command of God that every man repent and believe the Gospel. This is the revealed will of God to man. However, in His secret will, His decretive will, He has appointed some men to salvation and others to condemnation. Manís duty is to obey the revealed will of God. We are not to speculate on the secret will of the Lord."

#33136 - Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:07 AM Re: Gospel truth [Re: Pilgrim]  
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For the twentieth time pilgrim, you seem to miss the point ! I do not advocate salvation by doctrine, prove where i have said this. Prove that spurgeon meant that. Salvation is by grace period. Gods elect will believe the gospel and their faith at that time makes manifest their eternal election and that they have been saved. Please be accurate as you tell me. No one is saying salvation by doctrine. Lets be fair and honest


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given meóthe task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
#33137 - Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:19 AM Re: Charges [Re: Pilgrim]  
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beloved57 Offline
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Quote
Pilgrim said:
Quote
Kathy said:
I do not think we can fully understand certain mysteries (this being one)... I feel like throwing up my hands on this one. Donít we respond in some way? Donít we have ears? Is it a work to listen and use our intellect to process our ideas, become convicted of the need for repentance, etc? I also believe that this is by Grace. I think these will have to be rhetorical questions... or you will be here a while.

Kathy,

1)
Quote

God did not predestine creation

That may not be accurate pilgrim, God predestined all things!

God foreordained the person of christ , I think foreordain and predestine are used interchaneably ! Both terms just denote a outworking of a predetemine plan.

But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

"! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/nope.gif" alt="" /> He predestinated people unto salvation in Christ. God "foreordained" all things. But "predestination" belongs to the realm of soteriology (salvation). It may seem like all this is like splitting hairs, but it is definitely not. Biblical truth, all of God's truth is important, although some of those truths are more pressing and dependent upon the situation where they are to be applied. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

2) There are definitely "mysteries" in the Bible which cannot be comprehended in full by anyone this side of glory and perhaps they never will be. The Infinite cannot be fully comprehended by the infant mind of a created being. The fact is, we can comprehend what God has revealed for the simple fact that it was God's purpose that we do know his revealed will and that He sent the Holy Spirit to guide believers into ALL truth. So, we are capable of knowing many things and we are even required to do so. In the matter of predestination, we cannot comprehend the secret will of God, e.g., who exactly God has decreed unto salvation with 100% certainty. But we can know that He has predestinated a remnant out of Adam's fallen race to be reconciled to Him through faith in Christ. There is no "mystery" to that. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

For more on the biblical doctrine of predestination, see here: The Doctrine of Predestination.

In His grace,

Last edited by beloved57; Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:50 AM.

Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given meóthe task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
#33138 - Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:43 AM Re: Gospel truth [Re: beloved57]  
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Beloved,

Maybe you can pull another rabbit from your hat and solve this mystery?

Quote

I do not advocate salvation by doctrine, prove where i have said this.


On another of your posts on 6/8, you said this:

Quote

If you did not believe those truths (Read Limited Atonement) about christ, then you belived a false gospel, and you were decieved.


Which is it?

Denny

Romans 3:22-24


Denny

Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
#33139 - Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:05 AM Re: Gospel truth [Re: Adopted]  
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IF Christ said all manner of sin is forgiven. To the utmost. And this side of glory we are all tainted by sin, some more than others, and these are forgiven for those in Christ. Why is believing amis not forgiven? This has always plagued me. I am not speaking of a willful rejection of Christ. But there appears to be very little in scripture that says what should be confessed as truth. Perhaps Trinity, Diety of Christ, Christ coming in the fles. Law vs grace.

I guess what i am after is if all manner of sin is forgiven, and unbelief of certain doctrinal propositions is a sin, why is this not forgiven?

Let's just say definite atonement is true, i believe it< but this is a truth and not believing it is the sin of unbelief, Christ said He paid for that sin.

Last edited by Joe k; Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:10 AM.

There never was a sinner half as big as Christ is as a Savior.
#33140 - Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:33 AM Re: Gospel truth [Re: Joe k]  
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Hi Joe, It is forgiven , paul is a living testimony to that !

1 tim 1: 12
thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service. 13Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

I myself have been forgiven, I once belived and preached arminism. But I like paul, have renounced my former religous ignorance and count it dung..
phil 3: 8

Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Having a correct understanding of who christ is and what he done to save his people from their sins, is a great blessing from God !


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given meóthe task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
#33141 - Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:43 AM Re: Gospel truth [Re: Adopted]  
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yes, thats true ! If a elect jehovah witness who has not been brought to a knowledge of who christ is and what he has done for the sins of his people and that he was God, sure he will still be saved because he is a elect, but at this particular time in their life, prior to God revealing the truth to them regarding who christ is and what he has done, to me he has not manifested his salvation yet, because they still manifest belief in a false doctrine.

so I cannot say that person is saved , how could I ? We are not God , we are not omniscience ! We can only know that one could possibly be our brother or sister by what they confess to be true about the doctrine of christ they hold and confess. Do you think paul would have been accepted and fellowhipped by the other christians if he did not evidence a belief in the gospel of the christ he recently hated and vehemently persecuted ? Come on give me a break with that argument, it is so weak and you know it sir... <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" />


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given meóthe task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
#33142 - Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:09 AM Re: Gospel truth [Re: beloved57]  
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Quote
beloved57 said:
yes, thats true ! If a elect jehovah witness who has not been brought to a knowledge of who christ is and what he has done for the sins of his people and that he was God, sure he will still be saved because he is a elect, but at this particular time in their life, prior to God revealing the truth to them regarding who christ is and what he has done, to me he has not manifested his salvation yet, because they still manifest belief in a false doctrine.

so I cannot say that person is saved , how could I ? We are not God , we are not omniscience ! We can only know that one could possibly be our brother or sister by what they confess to be true about the doctrine of christ they hold and confess. Do you think paul would have been accepted and fellowhipped by the other christians if he did not evidence a belief in the gospel of the christ he recently hated and vehemently persecuted ? Come on give me a break with that argument, it is so weak and you know it sir... <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" />


Once again you are missing my whole point. There is not one arminian, for lack of a better term, who would deny the trinity, diety of Christ, Bodily resurrection, coming in the flesh etc etc.

The elevation of TULIP, especially "L" to this level is man made.

One who denies Christ came in the flesh is antichrist per john the inspired apostle. But I do not see any verse supporting anyone who denies "L" is antichrist.

I am not arguing here darryl. You need not respond unless you can address my question. And why do you use Paul as the barometer and not Christ? Was HE not given the title "Friend of publicans and sinners?"

You are claiming that denying your shibboleth of tulip is a sin. But if Christ suffered for that sin, than why condemn them? I dont think you can have it both ways.

If a man dies while rejecting Christ as being the messiah, denying He came in the flesh, we could possibly conclude he is damned. But if one dies denying any of the petals, but confesses and trusts in Christ as the anointed one, wouldnt the blood of Christ cover all of his sins?


There never was a sinner half as big as Christ is as a Savior.
#33143 - Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:16 AM Re: Gospel truth [Re: beloved57]  
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Beloved57 protests and states,

Quote
so I cannot say that person is saved , how could I ? We are not God , we are not omniscience ! We can only know that one could possibly be our brother or sister by what they confess to be true about the doctrine of christ they hold and confess.

So was Peter (i.e. the Apostle) a Christian? If so, when?


Reformed and Always Reforming,
#33144 - Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:11 AM Re: Gospel truth [Re: beloved57]  
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Beloved,

Quote

so I cannot say that person is saved , how could I


This is the point! Neither may you say that this person is NOT saved just because he doesn't believe in your favorite doctrine. None of us believe or obey all of the Gospel perfectly. If you judge and condemn someone for not believing or behaving exactly as you think he should, what about the things that you, yourself, are still knowingly or unknowingly neglecting, such as humility and meekness?

Do you think the thief on the cross was saved because he was a Supralapsarian or because he was a Infralapsarian?

As far as we're concerned, and from our perspective, a person is not saved when he says, "I don't believe in Jesus". Teaching, casting out error and heresy is what the Church is supposed to do, not condemning as lost every soul that does not yet believe in Limited Atonement or whatever. This is exactly what the cults do!

Denny

Romans 3:22-24


Denny

Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
#33145 - Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:24 AM Re: Gospel truth [Re: Adopted]  
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I know people who say they believe in jesus christ who are followers of roman cathlocism ! Do you believe they are saved also ? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" />


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given meóthe task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
#33146 - Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:33 AM Re: Gospel truth [Re: J_Edwards]  
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Quote
J_Edwards said:
Beloved57 protests and states,

Quote
so I cannot say that person is saved , how could I ? We are not God , we are not omniscience ! We can only know that one could possibly be our brother or sister by what they confess to be true about the doctrine of christ they hold and confess.

So was Peter (i.e. the Apostle) a Christian? If so, when?


you miss the point <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" />


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given meóthe task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
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