Donations for the month of September


We have received a total of $0 in donations towards our goal of $175.


Don't want to use PayPal? Go HERE


Search

Member Spotlight
John_C
John_C
Mississippi Gulf Coast
Posts: 1,769
Joined: September 2001
Show All Member Profiles 
Forum Statistics
Forums30
Topics6,684
Posts51,430
Members928
Most Online373
Mar 5th, 2017
Top Posters(All Time)
Pilgrim 13,513
Tom 3,525
chestnutmare 2,920
J_Edwards 2,615
Wes 1,856
John_C 1,769
RJ_ 1,582
MarieP 1,578
gotribe 1,060
Top Posters(30 Days)
Pilgrim 16
Tom 15
Johan 2
Meta4 2
John_C 1
Recent Posts
Guilt or Innocence Does it Matter?
by Tom. Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:55 PM
Big Thank You!
by Tom. Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:19 PM
Same Sex Atraction
by Pilgrim. Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:33 AM
What will it like to live in Heaven
by Pilgrim. Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:32 PM
Bill 89 taking children from Christian homes
by Tom. Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:10 PM
Pay Taxes
by Tom. Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:54 PM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: Presumptive Regeneration [Re: Pilgrim] #34344
Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:04 AM
Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:04 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 969
USA
P
Peter Offline
Old Hand
Peter  Offline
Old Hand
P
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 969
USA
Quote

In both of these quotes from John the Baptist and the Lord Christ respectively, presumption of one's standing with God due to a covenant heritage is soundly rejected and the need for individual repentance and faith in Christ is set forth. And let me emphasize that this is NOT "Baptist" theology... It is Biblical Theology.


Not that the Baptists are going to disagree with that statement. Well the Reformed Baptists at least.


ps Notice how I didn't say anything about Postmill despite you bringing it up? Restraint is my middle name.


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
Re: Presumptive Regeneration [Re: Peter] #34345
Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:54 AM
Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:54 AM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,513
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,513
NH, USA
Quote
Boanerges said:
Not that the Baptists are going to disagree with that statement. Well the Reformed Baptists at least.


ps Notice how I didn't say anything about Postmill despite you bringing it up? Restraint is my middle name.

The reason I stated my view (anti-presumptive regeneration) was not "Baptist" theology but rather "Biblical" theology is because quite often, those who hold to presumptive regeneration accuse such persons, as myself, as "siding with Baptist theology". Of course, for that to be a pejorative which surely is the intent, one would have to presume that everything and anything a Baptist believes is spurious. I see this type of attitude as paradigmatic of "Denominational Pride". And we all know what the Scriptures say about that:

Quote
Proverbs 16:18 (ASV) "Pride [goeth] before destruction, And a haughty spirit before a fall."

Re: "Restraint is my middle name." Tell me, how much did it cost you to have your previous name changed to "Restraint"? If the Judge knew you personally, it probably cost you dearly. . . . . . [Linked Image]

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Presumptive Regeneration [Re: John_C] #34346
Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:23 PM
Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,856
Northwest Indiana, USA
Wes Offline
Needs to get a Life
Wes  Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,856
Northwest Indiana, USA
Quote
John_C said:

Thanks for the interesting link. I'm surprise there is no mention of Abraham Kuyper in the entry.


John C,

You’re right it doesn’t mention Abraham Kuyper in this report. Which proves this information is not complete without opening the attached links with further information on this topic. For example if you go to the bottom of the page you will notice a link entitled “Religion in the Netherlands.” Open this link and you will see that the information I provided a link to is only part of a larger study on this topic. Along with additional links to more specific information you will see a link entitled “Presumptive Regeneration.” Here Kuyper is mentioned with reference to presumptive regeneration.

Quote
Presumptive regeneration (also Presupposed regeneration) is the idea that parents should baptize their children based on a presumption of the child's being regenerate. This idea is often associated with Abraham Kuyper even though it was the classically reformed position from the Reformation to the present.


You will note that this position didn’t go uncontested and the Westminster Larger Confession addresses this in Question and Answer 80 and 81. The significance of the witness of the Holy Spirit is sighted in opposition to the assumption that all who are baptised are regenerate.

Wes


When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
Re: Presumptive Regeneration [Re: Wes] #34347
Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:17 PM
Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:17 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,513
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,513
NH, USA
Quote
Wes said:
You will note that this position didn’t go uncontested and the Westminster Larger Confession addresses this in Question and Answer 80 and 81. The significance of the witness of the Holy Spirit is sighted in opposition to the assumption that all who are baptised are regenerate.

For those who don't have ready access to the "Westminster Larger Catechism", below is Q&A 80 and 81:


Q80: Can true believers be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace, and that they shall persevere therein unto salvation?

A80: Such as truly believe in Christ, and endeavor to walk in all good conscience before him,[1] may, without extraordinary revelation, by faith grounded upon the truth of God's promises, and by the Spirit enabling them to discern in themselves those graces to which the promises of life are made,[2] and bearing witness with their spirits that they are the children of God,[3] be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace, and shall persevere therein unto salvation.[4]

1. John 2:3
2. I Cor. 2:12; I John 3:14, 18-19, 21, 24; 4:13, 16; Heb. 6:11-12
3. Rom. 8:16
4. I John 5:13

Q81: Are all true believers at all times assured of their present being in the estate of grace, and that they shall be saved?
A81: Assurance of grace and salvation not being of the essence of faith,[1] true believers may wait long before they obtain it;[2] and, after the enjoyment thereof, may have it weakened and intermitted, through manifold distempers, sins, temptations, and desertions;[3] yet are they never left without such a presence and support of the Spirit of God as keeps them from sinking into utter despair.[4]

1. Eph. 1:13
2. Isa. 1:10; Psa. ch. 88
3. Psa. 22:1; 31:22; 51:8, 12; 87:1-12; Song of Sol. 5:2-3, 6
4. I John 3:9; Job 13:15; Psa. 73:15, 23; Isa. 54:7-10


Perhaps I should also mention that the "Westminster Larger Catechism" along with myriad other Reformed Confessions and Catechisms can be easily accessed on your own PC by downloading and installing this [Linked Image] program: Refcon3.

If anyone is confused as to how to install Refcon3 on their PC(s), post your question in the Computer Help Desk Forum and we'll provide easy instructions for installation and also tell you how to create a shortcut to add to your Start Menu.

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Presumptive Regeneration [Re: E_F_Grant] #34348
Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:44 PM
Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:44 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 710
.
W
William Offline
Addict
William  Offline
Addict
W
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 710
.
Quote
What was it that caused Holland to fall so far? Some have said it is the doctrine of presumptive regeneration.


Well in the 1900's perhaps it was the doctrine of common grace and the conditional covenant. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/evilgrin.gif" alt="" />

Re: Presumptive Regeneration [Re: William] #34349
Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:43 PM
Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:43 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,513
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,513
NH, USA
Quote
William said:
Well in the 1900's perhaps it was the doctrine of common grace and the conditional covenant. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/evilgrin.gif" alt="" />

Perhaps you could expand on this a bit to show how an alleged embracing of God's "common grace", aka: benevolence to all mankind and "conditional covenant" contributed to the continental reformed churches downfall? BTW, if your sources are from the PRC, you do realize don't you that although they were and still are opposed to Presumptive Regeneration, they do practice the same. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/evilgrin.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Presumptive Regeneration [Re: Wes] #34350
Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:36 PM
Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:36 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 199
Go Purdue! So guess at it alre...
E_F_Grant Offline OP
Addict
E_F_Grant  Offline OP
Addict
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 199
Go Purdue! So guess at it alre...
Thanks, I will look that up now. I am going to be back in Amsterdam within the week, but only on our way to someplace else. It's a shame that such a handsome people who were and are obviously so talented and industrious should have come to this pass! May God have mercy on them.


Stand Fast, Craigellachie!
Re: Presumptive Regeneration [Re: Pilgrim] #34351
Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:15 PM
Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 710
.
W
William Offline
Addict
William  Offline
Addict
W
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 710
.
Quote
Pilgrim said:
Perhaps you could expand on this a bit to show how an alleged embracing of God's "common grace", aka: benevolence to all mankind and "conditional covenant" contributed to the continental reformed churches downfall? BTW, if your sources are from the PRC, you do realize don't you that although they were and still are opposed to Presumptive Regeneration, they do practice the same.

In His grace,



Well I did say perhaps meaning as an alternative to the Presumptive Regeneration theory. Some believe if I understand correctly that common grace goes much further than God raining on the just and the unjust. The idea of a common grace leads to the idea that there is some kind of a special grace in the preaching of the gospel and that God has a desire (though fleeting) to save all even the reprobate.

The conditional covenant gives a child born in the covenant a blank check from God and he can cash it at any time based on his faith and repentance.

So I suppose the idea is that arminianism has lifted it's slippery head through these doctrines and has won the battle destroying both church and state.

After all if the church or nation have a god who is not a potter over the clay isn't it a matter of time before they live like it.

Wasn't Bavincks teaching of common grace widespread in the Netherlands in the 1900's? Also does anyone know what has happened to the churches that the PRCA refomed out of in the 20's and 50's, are the still sound?

William <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Re: Presumptive Regeneration [Re: William] #34352
Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:03 PM
Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:03 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,513
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,513
NH, USA
Quote
William said:
Some believe if I understand correctly that common grace goes much further than God raining on the just and the unjust. The idea of a common grace leads to the idea that there is some kind of a special grace in the preaching of the gospel and that God has a desire (though fleeting) to save all even the reprobate.

Unfortunately, that caricature of the doctrine of "Common Grace" is inaccurate. No mainline Calvinist that I have ever come across, either in person or via writing, has ever hinted at never mind advocated any kind of "special grace in the preaching", etc. The "desire" element has always been hotly debated also due to much misunderstanding. That God "desires" [preceptive will] that all men repent and believe upon Christ cannot be disputed, with the exception of classic hyper-Calvinists. Again, I know of no mainline Calvinist who has ever advocated that God "desires", i.e., "wills" the salvation of all men without discrimination. If God "desired" the salvation of all men, then all men would be infallibly saved.

Quote
William continues:
The conditional covenant gives a child born in the covenant a blank check from God and he can cash it at any time based on his faith and repentance.

From my own understanding of "conditional covenant", it holds that covenant children are born in sin and unless they repent and believe upon Christ, the promises of the covenant are inaccessible. In short, there is no "unconditional promise" made to covenant children which to them is granted union with Christ and all the salvific benefits that flow from His vicarious substitutionary work to them de facto because they are born of a parent who professes faith. And, that this union with Christ is theirs unless they at some time deny the faith; aka: the Faith.

From my own reading, again, those who are most adamantly opposed to "conditional covenant", in the end, practice that which they oppose. rolleyes2 This is basically an "in house" debate, i.e., among Reformed churches of the paedobaptist persuasion. An example of the hypocrisy of those most opposed is that they too use the official Form for the Baptism of Infants (emphasis mine) which clearly teaches that ALL covenant children are united to Christ, have their sins remitted in His blood, etc., etc.... because they are born into a covenant household.

Quote
William then sums up with:
So I suppose the idea is that arminianism has lifted it's slippery head through these doctrines and has won the battle destroying both church and state.

It is all too common to hear/see this type of statement wherein if someone holds to biblical "Common Grace" and/or holds that covenant children, although privileged in that they are given the means of grace whereby they may be saved IF they repent and believe, are by nature children of wrath and subject to damnation unless the Holy Spirit regenerates their corrupt nature and brings them to Christ, then they can be said to embrace Arminianism to some degree. nope

Quote
And lastly William concludes:
After all if the church or nation have a god who is not a potter over the clay isn't it a matter of time before they live like it.

I'm with you all the way on this one. BigThumbUp

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Presumptive Regeneration [Re: Pilgrim] #34353
Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:31 AM
Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:31 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 969
USA
P
Peter Offline
Old Hand
Peter  Offline
Old Hand
P
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 969
USA
Quote
Re: "Restraint is my middle name." Tell me, how much did it cost you to have your previous name changed to "Restraint"? If the Judge knew you personally, it probably cost you dearly. . . . . .


Nahh I did it in Canada the exchange rate made it cheap and the liberal Canadian judges made it a cinch.


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
Wes, [Re: Peter] #34354
Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:46 AM
Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:46 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 199
Go Purdue! So guess at it alre...
E_F_Grant Offline OP
Addict
E_F_Grant  Offline OP
Addict
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 199
Go Purdue! So guess at it alre...
That was a fascinating article. Very telling in places, and I consider myself warned by it. Need to re-read it.


Stand Fast, Craigellachie!
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 24 guests, and 15 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
reformedbygrace, ReformedDisciple, Micki Bowman, Nigel J, wischnotes
928 Registered Users
Shout Box
September
S M T W T F S
1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25 26 27 28 29
30
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Popular Topics(Views)
811,776 Gospel truth
Page Time: 0.056s Queries: 16 (0.004s) Memory: 2.9518 MB (Peak: 3.2626 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2018-09-25 07:25:38 UTC