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Nazareth's Unbelief #35641
Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:51 AM
Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:51 AM
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Robin Offline OP
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Robin  Offline OP
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<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/ranton.gif" alt="" />
In Matthew 13:58 we are told that Jesus did not do many miracles in Nazareth because of the population's unbelief. It does not say that He couldn't do any miracles because of their unbelief, but that He didn't. Mark's account of the story (Mark 6:1-6) says "He could do no miracle there except that He laid His lands on a few people and healed them (verse 5)."

Word-of-Faith Charismatics would have us believe that the people's lack of faith actually thwarted Jesus' ability to perform mighty works in that city.

Nothing could be farther from the truth. In fact Jesus did do miracles there, healing a few people. A Charismatic might suppose that those healings should have produced faith in others, thus "enabling Jesus" to do greater works there, and those greater works would encourage greater faith and greater works in turn. [sarcasm] Poor Jesus. He can do nothing without our faith to enable Him. [/sarcasm] That's ridiculous and borders on blasphemy!

Jesus did not need the people's faith in order to work miracles. He chose to do no miracles there because miracles are of no value to those without faith (see 1 Corinthians 13:2). Additionally I dare say that Jesus' refusal to work miracles in His old home town was an act of great mercy towards them, for where there are great signs, there is great judgment. The pronouncement in Matthew 23 of judgement against unbelieving Israel who had seen many miraculous signs and still refused to believe was unprecedented. Jesus said that His own generation of unbelieving covenant people were to bear "the guilt of all righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the Temple and the altar (Matthew 23:35)." Those who had been given the greater signs suffered the greater judgment. Jesus actually showed great mercy to His old home town neighbors be not multiplying their guilt with many miraculous signs.

Word-of-Faith Charismaticism blames the victims of sickness or loss for having a "lack of faith." It claims a god who is impotent because his desire can be thwarted by his own puny little corrupt creatures, yet they can supposedly learn how to "manipulate" their god by using "gos-pill Capps-ules" (anyone remember Capps?) which were mantras of selected Bible verses to generate faith that would supposedly move Him. Even the wicked can do it, according to the Word-of-Faith teachers.

It seems that the wicked are indeed doing that... sending out their own "mantras" in the media until the general population believes their lies and brings about changes in government and education... but the true and living God is not moved by even the most ardent faith in lies! It is His own will and word that is being worked out in every act of every creature, not the creatures who influence and enable their Creator.
<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rantoff.gif" alt="" />

Re: Nazareth's Unbelief [Re: Robin] #35642
Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:04 PM
Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:04 PM
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Wes Offline
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John 1:9-13

"The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."


Wes


When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
Re: Nazareth's Unbelief [Re: Robin] #35643
Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:05 PM
Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:05 PM
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Greeneaglz Offline
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Hi Robin, I was confronted with this issue as a visiting preacher used this scripture to justify believing in Jesus to get a miracle. I suggested that it was because of what people would do that he did not do the miracles. In fact, jesus healed two people with demons which went into a herd of pigs and the whole of a local city came out to tell Jesus to keep away. Faith when I read Matt is to do with believing that Jesus is who he says he is. In his home town they tried to throw Him off a cliff because they lacked faith. The disciples were told they had little faith when Jesus calmed the storm. And they even wondered who Jesus was because he did so. Miracles were the evidence of who he was but Jesus was not dependent on other people's faith to do them.
If we have faith in a wrong idea of who Jesus is, we have no faith at all. But it is a belief in the Jesus as revealed by his Holy Spirit who, just as Jesus showed us what the Father is like, the HS teaches us who both Jesus and the Father are like.
Paul T

Re: Nazareth's Unbelief [Re: Greeneaglz] #35644
Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:55 PM
Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:55 PM
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Pilgrim Offline

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Quote
Greeneaglz said:
But it is a belief in the Jesus as revealed by his Holy Spirit who, just as Jesus showed us what the Father is like, the HS teaches us who both Jesus and the Father are like.

Paul,

Just to clarify in my own mind, you did mean by what you wrote above that the Holy Spirit teaches us in and by the written infallible Word; the Scriptures, correct? and not apart from nor in addition to the Scriptures, correct?

In His grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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Re: Nazareth's Unbelief [Re: Pilgrim] #35645
Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:48 PM
Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:48 PM
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West Midlands, England
Greeneaglz Offline
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Tried to answer from work but for some reason I could not post on this site!!! Yep HS teaches through the Word.

Which gets me thinkin. When Jesus saw what the Father did and only did what he saw the Father doing it... just what did He see, and how? He quoted scripture constantly so did He see it through the scriptures? He did have a great understanding of the scriptures even as a child. If this knowledge was from the Holy Spirit from birth, then is the Holy Spirit coming to rest on Jesus when he is baptised, just a sign that He was the Son of God? Surely He already had the Holy Spirit.
Paul T

Re: Nazareth's Unbelief [Re: Greeneaglz] #35646
Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:48 PM
Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:48 PM
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Pilgrim Offline

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Quote
Greeneaglz said:
Tried to answer from work but for some reason I could not post on this site!!! Yep HS teaches through the Word.

Which gets me thinkin. When Jesus saw what the Father did and only did what he saw the Father doing it... just what did He see, and how? He quoted scripture constantly so did He see it through the scriptures? He did have a great understanding of the scriptures even as a child. If this knowledge was from the Holy Spirit from birth, then is the Holy Spirit coming to rest on Jesus when he is baptised, just a sign that He was the Son of God? Surely He already had the Holy Spirit.

Greeneaglz,

Can you provide a passage where it mentions Jesus "seeing" what the Father did and only "doing" what he saw Him doing? Just curious! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/evilgrin.gif" alt="" />

As to the Holy Spirit coming down and resting on Him (Matt 3:16) at His baptism . . . I do believe that this had at least a two-fold significance: 1) Authentication by God that He was indeed the One sent, aka: Messiah. This served the same purpose as the gift of tongues given to the Apostles, i.e., authenticating their divine calling of God. 2) Empowering Christ for the work of His earthly ministry which was before Him; teaching, healing, resisting the temptation of the Evil One and which terminated at the cross.

In His grace,

PS.... re: not being able to post at work. This may be due to "cookies" and/or "referrers" being blocked in a security setting. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


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simul iustus et peccator

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Re: Pilgrim's "can you provide a passage?" [Re: Pilgrim] #35647
Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:28 AM
Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:28 AM
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Kalamazoo, MI
Arashi-dono Offline
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I think Greeneaglz is referring to:

So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will..." (Joh 5.19-21, ESV)

Last edited by Arashi-dono; Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:50 AM.
Re: Pilgrim's "can you provide a passage?" [Re: Arashi-dono] #35648
Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:29 AM
Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:29 AM
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West Midlands, England
Greeneaglz Offline
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Arashi-dono, you got there before me lol. Thanks! NIV version below.
John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. etc.

Robin, so you are saying that Jesus did not have the Holy Spirit before he was baptised?
Paul

Re: Pilgrim's "can you provide a passage?" [Re: Greeneaglz] #35649
Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:36 AM
Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:36 AM
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Robin Offline OP
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Quote
Robin, so you are saying that Jesus did not have the Holy Spirit before he was baptised?


I haven't said anything in this thread yet! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" />

Scripture very clearly tells us that Jesus is God (the Son), who with the Father and the Spirit, are one God yet three distinct Persons. Yet He was also fully human (not "part human and part God" as some have postulated).

I don't believe that Jesus "had" the Holy Spirit in the same way before as after His baptism. He was without sin for all the thirty or so years before J.B. baptized Him. To try putting it perhaps more accurately, the Holy Spirit was with Jesus before His baptism.

While Scripture seems to refer to the Holy Spirit as a gift, He is not something humans may possess or control (even though "the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets" according to 1st Corinthians 14:2). In fact it is to be quite the opposite for us.

We are told in the Scriptures that Jesus subjected Himself to the Father (as well as earthly authorities), and that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (John 15:26, Galatians 4:6). The Holy Spirit descending on Jesus at His baptism is different from His "getting" or "having" the Holy Spirit in the same way that you and I are to receive Him.

The descent of the dove and the voice from heaven may have been Jesus' ordination ceremony, so to speak. Once He identified Himself with humanity by being baptized (though He had no need to be baptized since He was without sin), His work would be different from what it was before. In addition to amazing others with His understanding and answers regarding the Scriptures (Luke 2:47), He would thereafter perform miraculous signs, call disciples, teach multitudes, die and rise again. I tend to think of His baptism as an anointing / ordination by God the Father and witnessed by the Spirit as well as by John and those standing near.

-Robin

Last edited by Robin; Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:04 PM.

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