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#35800 Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:41 AM
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Some things really get under my skin and when they get there I seek God for clear directives on these matters. When I read this article from Apologetics.com it at first drove me crazy, and as I read some of the responses from 'francis' (a RCC apologete), Mathetes (Jack Gibson - a teacher in Apologetics), 'Love Supreme' (Lindsay - the chief apologete)...my brief irritation turned to boiling hot distaste.

The opening post presented 3 arguments in the form of a Soldier who worshipped a demon from one of C.S. Lewis' books, a letter by C.S. Lewis and then a passage of Scripture from Romans (perhaps the thrust), plus two other passages. The author was a person who goes by the name of Seal_of_servants.

This morning as I awoke this was still on my mind and I turned to the Lord in prayer. I began to think about how Scripture condemns witchcraft and how the ideas that were expressed here by those who are meant to be defending the truth of the Gospel was offensive but not only that is that they claim to be Calvanistic to some degree or other.

My jets are still steaming and I doubt they shall cool for a long time. Unless someone here has a good answer for me, please ?

Here is the link:
Saved and not know it

Last edited by straw; Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:32 PM.
straw #35801 Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:53 PM
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Straw
<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/puke.gif" alt="" /> I think you are correct to feel the way you do about this article. How can someone serve a false god and at the same time be saved? The story has no account of the soldier repenting and turning to Aslan, so I don't know how he could be saved.
Also, if he was following this false god all his life, how could it also be true (as Aslan said) that he was following good all his life? It would be like saying that the false god was good.

Tom

straw #35802 Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:00 PM
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straw,

So, help me out here..... what's your problem? laugh

ALL who participated in that thread and the views of C.S. Lewis on this subject of the possibility of non-believers ultimately being saved are waaaaaaaay off the mark; their views are totally false. There is no speculation to be seen in Scripture on who is going to be received by God at the Judgment. It is crystal clear that only those who God has predestined to salvation in Christ will be saved. And those, during their lifetime will be irresistibly drawn to Christ by the Holy Spirit, Who having regenerated them, will infallibly repent of their sins (true evangelical repentance) and believe on Christ with a living faith. All of the elect will progress in sanctification, putting off the old man and putting on the new man. (Rom 8:29, 30; Eph. 1:4-13; et al)

There is no such foolishness as a "second chance salvation", despite what Billy Graham and others think. rolleyes2 For as it is written:

Quote
Hebrews 9:27-28 (ASV) "And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this [cometh] judgment; so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation."

Re: Romans 2:12-16, the "interpretation" given by "Seal_of_Servants" is so far from what Paul is actually teaching in that particular passage it makes my head spin! dizzy What that passage is saying is that whether or not one is without the law (Gentiles) or has the law (Jews) both will be judged (condemned) because BOTH transgress the law; either the law written on the hearts (Gentiles) or the written law [Moses] (Jews). [cf. Rom 3:9ff]

In His grace,


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straw #35803 Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:01 PM
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Straw,

You'll have to be a little more selective of what you read. As Pilgrim has pointed out "ALL" who are participating in that thread are completely off the mark.

Peter warns us about folks like that in his second letter. He tells us to beware of people who twist things to their own destruction as they do with the rest of Scripture. Instead be diligent to be found faithful and growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (See 2 Peter 3:14-18)


Wes


When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
Tom #35804 Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:42 PM
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Thank-you so much Tom, Pilgrim and Wes. I feel the jets cooling some. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cloud9.gif" alt="" />

straw #35805 Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:42 AM
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Wes,

What do you think of the current direction of the discussion between the person who wrote the opening post and H.T. Beckstead and Psyche ?

Especially the replies of Psyche:

1.
Perhaps Lewis and yourself are too focussed on the roads that are leading to Christ and not the pathway that is Christ (straight and narrow) which leads to us.

2.
The completed work of Yeshua ha Massiach, is an eternal work that reaches forward and backward simultaneously embracing all who are of 'the election of grace' - the chosen of God/Yahweh : not based on merit of any sort; be it zeal misplaced, pure devotion or faith which is anything more or less than A GIFT namely the completed work of Yeshua ha Massiach.

Straw
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straw #35806 Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:24 PM
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straw said:
What do you think of the current direction of the discussion between the person who wrote the opening post and H.T. Beckstead and Psyche ?

Especially the replies of Psyche:

1. Perhaps Lewis and yourself are too focussed on the roads that are leading to Christ and not the pathway that is Christ (straight and narrow) which leads to us.
Philosophical but hardly biblical. There is only ONE road that leads to eternal life. If you veer off that road then you obviously aren't going to reach the necessary destination; Christ. That road is "by grace through faith in Christ alone", aka: Sola Fide. God has decreed not only the end but also the means to that end.


John 10:1-5 (ASV) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. When he hath put forth all his own, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers."



Quote
2. The completed work of Yeshua ha Massiach, is an eternal work that reaches forward and backward simultaneously embracing all who are of 'the election of grace' - the chosen of God/Yahweh : not based on merit of any sort; be it zeal misplaced, pure devotion or faith which is anything more or less than A GIFT namely the completed work of Yeshua ha Massiach.
Again, interesting philosophical musings but it is hardly in accord with the teaching of Scripture. Although God's election is from eternity, it comes to fruition in time/history. There is no "eternal justification" nor an "eternal atonement". What Christ accomplished must also be applied in time through the means determined by God. Those means are made effectual by the work of the Holy Spirit upon and within individuals at the appointed time. And one last point, "Yeshua ha Massiach" is not eternal. nope The Son of God, the second person of the Trinity is eternal. But the incarnate Son of God, aka: Jesus of Nazareth came into being at a point in history when he was brought forth from the womb of Mary. (cf. Jh 1:1, 10) The Word (Son) became flesh (Jesus)! wink

In His grace,


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Pilgrim #35807 Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:25 PM
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Thanks Pilgrim.

Just a few facts I would like clearned up regarding your last point.

Are you saying that 'Jesus Christ' is not eternal ? He referred to himself as the Son of God, so are you dividing 'Jesus Christ' and 'The Son of God' ? Sort of 'Son of man' and 'Son of God' - His man part died on the cross and His eternal part continued living ? Yet we know that he rose a physical man. Remember Thomas touched him and he ate food etc. The passage you are referring to in John 1 also says that 'The Word was God' Did the Word stop being God when He became flesh, what of the other passages which says, 'God manifest in the flesh' The other passage is not John 1:10 it is John 1:14.

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add:
If Jesus Christ was not eternal then how do you explain the following passages of Scripture ?

1 John 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

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Sorry to have caused some confusion on this matter of the eternality of Christ.

The reason I mentioned what I did was because so many today make the serious error, albeit unknowingly for most, in interpreting John 1:1, i.e., they believe that the "Word" was Jesus. The "Word" is referring to the "Son" of God; 2nd person of the Trinity. And this "Word" (Son) became flesh 1:14, which was Jesus the Christ, the incarnation of God the Son, aka: the God-man.

Now, the Son is eternal but Jesus Christ as the God-man, although divine as to the Son is not eternal as to His humanity. We cannot intermix the two natures even though they cannot be separated. This was a serious issue waaaaaaay back and the result was that the Church formulated an answer to those who erred on one side or the other as to the nature of Christ. That document is known as "The Chalcedonian Creed".


Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.


Hopefully, the above statement will clear up any misunderstanding that may have resulted due to the way I phrased something, etc..

In His grace,


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straw #35810 Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:55 PM
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Just to add.


HEIDELBERG CATAECHISM
XIII. LORD'S DAY.

Question 33. Why is Christ called the only begotten Son of God, . . . ?

Answer. Because Christ alone is the eternal and natural Son of God . . .

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1 (AV)

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Hebrews 1:2 (AV)




XIV. LORD'S DAY.

Question 35. What is the meaning of these words "He was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary"?

Answer. That God's eternal Son, who is, and continueth true and eternal God, took upon him the very nature of man, . . . sin excepted.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:14 (AV)

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, Galatians 4:4 (AV)





William

William #35811 Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:36 AM
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Thank-you Pilgrim for your humble spirit on this matter of grave consequence, for great indeed is the mystery of godliness, that God the Father was pleased to have the fulness of the Godhead dwell in Christ bodily.

Revisiting the topic of this thread:

The question is bizarre; in and of itself. If someone did not know that one was saved, then surely one would not be saved at all, or at least as the Apostle Peter wrote by the Holy Spirit; such a one has forgotten they were cleansed from their sins.

I have yet to meet a person that is not simply bursting with joy when they have been cleansed from their sins.

As to the matter of what preceeds regeneration; surely there might well be a state where the elect not yet made alive would be considered as saved in a nominal sense, namely that there names are written in the Lamb's book of life but they are not conscious of this not yet having been brought to God the Son by God the Father ? (Excuse my abundance of rather awkward corners.)

Sincerely,
The Straw.

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Thanks William,

I have always found Matthew Henry's Commentary, though a little excessive to contain great wealth of detail:

That we have in Christ the substance of all the shadows of the ceremonial law; for example, (1.) Had they then the Shechinah, or special presence of God, called the glory, from the visible token of it? So have we now in Jesus Christ (Col_2:9): For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Under the law, the presence of God dwelt between the cherubim, in a cloud which covered the mercy-seat; but now it dwells in the person of our Redeemer, who partakes of our nature, and is bone of our bone and flesh of our flesh, and has more clearly declared the Father to us. It dwells in him bodily; not as the body is opposed to the spirit, but as the body is opposed to the shadow. The fulness of the Godhead dwells in the Christ really, and not figuratively; for he is both God and man.

What think ye gentleman ?
The Straw.

Last edited by straw; Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:56 AM.
straw #35813 Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:25 PM
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straw said:
I have yet to meet a person that is not simply bursting with joy when they have been cleansed from their sins.
Let's not shut the door too quickly else you might be guilty of shutting out some of whom are "bruised reeds", i.e., they are of a tender spirit and/or who have been wrongly taught about the nature of assurance, of which they may be woefully lacking in their life as a whole or perhaps due to a period of sinfulness; a closeness to God is missing. David experienced the latter did he not? And if one would have asked him if he knew assuredly that he was "saved", he just might have answered with a good measure of doubt. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/idea.gif" alt="" />

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straw said:
As to the matter of what preceeds regeneration; surely there might well be a state where the elect not yet made alive would be considered as saved in a nominal sense, namely that there names are written in the Lamb's book of life but they are not conscious of this not yet having been brought to God the Son by God the Father ? (Excuse my abundance of rather awkward corners.)
We are allowed to speak generally of the fixed number of the elect according to God's eternal election and predestination and consequently the elect are going to be saved infallibly. But we are not warranted to speak of the elect as "saved" in any sense before they are regenerated and are actually united to Christ by faith. For it is ONLY those who are in Christ who are "children of God", adopted on the basis of Christ's shed blood being applied to them, aka: justification. Secondly, it serves no purpose to speak of an "eternal salvation" in regard to the elect, albeit again their salvation is certainly fixed in stone as it were, since we as mortals have no absolute knowledge of who the elect are. And even after true conversion, can anyone be 100% absolutely infallibly sure that someone else is of the elect? There are many who profess to know that they themselves are "saved" but who are destined to perdition. (cf. Matt 7:21f; 13:1-52; et al)

So, yes, whatever God has decreed in eternity will infallibly come to pass in time. But until it actually happens in time, it cannot be said to exist. If it will be of some help, we can say that everything which exists originated in God's "mind" from eternity. He didn't sit around and layout several possible scenarios of how the universe should look and function and then choose one which for some reason appealed to Him most. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" /> But it would be wrong to say that you or I or any human existed from eternity. That we would exist is true because it was the will of God to be so. But our actual existence is not infinite but finite else we would be God. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,


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Straw,
I use to believe in justification from eternity. Now I believe that justification occurs only once. However there was an eternal decree to save ONLY the elect.

William


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straw said:

As to the matter of what preceeds regeneration; surely there might well be a state where the elect not yet made alive would be considered as saved in a nominal sense, namely that there names are written in the Lamb's book of life but they are not conscious of this not yet having been brought to God the Son by God the Father ? (Excuse my abundance of rather awkward corners.)

Sincerely,
The Straw.


Article of the Month
Dr. Joel R. Beeke


(the Relation of Faith to Justification)



Quote
We must also firmly reject Antinomian or hyper-Calvinistic tendencies which adhere to a justification from eternity that negates the need for actual justification in time by becoming personal partakers of Christ by faith.51 For example, Abraham Kuyper went beyond the Synod of Dort in describing justification by faith as merely "becoming conscious" of the fact that we were already justified by God from eternity and in the resurrection of Christ. William Gadsby, J. C. Philpot and most of the Strict Baptists speak similarly by affirming that the believer is justified in time only with respect to his own conscience by the Sprit's witness. This erroneous view already exited in Puritan times among those with Antinomian tendencies, as Thomas Goodwin's apt response to it reveals: "It is vain to say I am justified only in respect to the court of mine own conscience. The faith that Paul and the other apostles were justified by, was their believing on Christ that they might be justified (Galatians 2:15, 16), and not a believing they were justified already."


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