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The Cameleon #35935
Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:23 AM
Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:23 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 176
AFRICA
straw Offline OP
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So often I have heard that passage used to justify sinful practices. 'I am just being ALL things to all men...' Embracing the practices of pagan religions is something that is not new. The idea of eating one's god was something common among the Aztecs, and practiced way before the idea of eating Jesus became popular in the fifties. Now lots of things became popular in the fifties, and in the sixties the Beatles went off to India and got themselves wrapped up in the Guru stock and trade.

Christiandumb likes to think that only Rome is doing this, and yet with Modern trends in worship it seems that the Ecumenical Movement is going into full steam embracing Mysticism and calling it the roots of Christianity. This is enough to give any beginner believer who has come out of the Occult the creeps.

Every so now and then a new voice speaks up amid the excitement (well I did not get that excited when I saw Rick Warren's book..The Purpose Driven Life), but many got totally drawn in by all the Brother Lawrence, Madame Guyon and other mystical ideas. Warren Smith who was getting free from the New Age ideas, noticed that there was more of that stuff in Rick's book.

But where does this mysticism idea really come from. According to John Michael Talbot in his latest letter, it comes from the Monastic lifestyle, and he a Father in Rome, says we must really get into it. Well, blow me down...I just got out of mysticism and found the truth of the Gospel to be the only way to God and here we go for another round of deception. When will the Cameleon ever stop changing it's spots....? Ofcourse, I know that answer, but I just wandered if any of ye kindly folks were thinking of doing yoga, or breath prayers and then read this and went, wait! Mabye the Cameleon has struck at my heart, time to walk pure, to walk true, to walk close to our beloved Saviour.

I know not all my ideas are right, but then I am just putting out some feelers here on EX-CHARISMA... <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/ClapHands.gif" alt="" />

Before you comment please read this...this guy apparently knows what he is talking about.

'The Church has repeatedly said that monasticism is at the heart of the Church. Why? It is at that heart of the Church because monasticism has historically been the most intentional and intense depository of the mystical life of the Church. Mysticism is the heart and goal of our doctrines, ecclesial structures, and sacraments. Why? Because love is the heart of the gospel, and love itself is a mystery. Love builds on our senses, emotions, and understanding, but surpasses them all.'

For the full article: A call to a Modern Monastic Movement by Father John Michael Talbot
http://www.johnmichaeltalbot.com/Reflections/index.asp?id=155

Last edited by straw; Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:30 AM.

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Re: The Cameleon [Re: straw] #35936
Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:03 PM
Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:03 PM
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straw Offline OP
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add: (please excuse the double post, it just seemed to make the point a little stronger.)

As I was leaving I noticed that the mission of this forum speaks about a simpler way of life, how wierd that one of Rome's Father's should use that very same idea to reach out.

Here is what is on the forum:

ExCharisma is a support forum for Christians leaving the Charismatic movement to seek out a simpler, more "back-to-basics" Christian experience.

Here is what Father Talbot wrote: (from the article referenced above.

'Can we of the Church in the Untied States embrace such a radical gospel life as monks, or will we remain in the safety of corporate and technological America? It may seem safe now, but it might be the real core of a greater problem in years ahead. The time has come to choose and to act. I stand before you as a messenger of God calling you to dare to give up all and follow Christ within or associated with a monastic community. If they can do it in todays Egypt, why can't we do it here? Will you be among the first to respond, or will you wait for others to respond first? Are you a sideliner, or a player, a watcher, or a doer? Dare to really live! Dare to really renounce yourself as a monk in order to discover who you really are in the wonderful plan of God. Let's see a modern monastic phenomenon in our time. But a real spiritual movement must unfold a person at a time, one by one, until it becomes a powerful wave of Spirit and renewal for an entire nation. Will you do something about this? If so you might be called to monastic life!'

In Jesus,
John Michael Talbot
Founder, Spiritual Father, and General Minister
The Brothers and Sisters of Charity at Little Portion Hermitage

Cameleon ?

Last edited by straw; Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:12 PM.
Re: The Cameleon [Re: straw] #35937
Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:56 PM
Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:56 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life
Tom  Offline
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I have to admit that my first reaction to what you said, would be to blast you <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/takethat.gif" alt="" />.
But that was my first reaction and experience tells me I should think a while before reacting. So I want to know if you actually are agreeing with John Michael Tolbott?

Re: The Cameleon [Re: Tom] #35938
Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:30 AM
Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:30 AM
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straw Offline OP
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Sorry Tom, (I did not unpack this topic well) > perhaps a third attempt will make my position clearer.

'Oh, the shark has pretty teeth dear'. (Louis Armstrong sang) Certainly not, Tom. I guess when one attempts to be 'gentle and respectful' about the views of a man who I have for many, many years respected as being somewhat of a beacon of hope in the corridors of 'Roman Religion' only to discover of late that he really believes all the stuff about 'Mary' and 'the Eucharist' and 'the Mass'. However, this most recent article referenced in my opening post, really had me: 'an ex-mystic' gasping for air. It seems to me that the man has is not really aware of the deep errors which are now almost full grown weeds; with the ecumenical unification, with the Eastern ideas, of 'breath prayers', 'yoga' (which he admits to practicing) - an older letter I received. It seems he has too much respect for the work of 'Thomas Merton' who I must assume that he has read, but am probably quite sure he has. In the eighties, I even considered joining the Franciscan order for married folks that met at the Parow Civic Centre. I have had much association with the Apostate Church of Rome, but mainly out of the fact that it has filtered into my life, because of family members 'deconverting'

John M. Talbot, is a deeply sincere man, and like so many who were caught up in the excitement of the conversion of others, and got a little religion, went for what they regarded to be the 'best choice', my heart aches, for the web of deceipt that is like a thick smoke in the Roman Catholic Church, is suffocating the life out of Christiandom and many who are unprepared to consider the dangers of things like 'yoga', 'mysticism' and the enchanting pagan ideas, will find themselves drawn into this diabolical web. Satan does not have to do too much when a supposed Christian Denomination is spreading it's net around what they call 'the seperated brethren' and these 'not those who are aware' are just being swallowed whole, by the sharks that are working for Rome. (Is this an exaggeration ?)

John M. Talbot is a musician and as such he demands a very large audience both Catholic and Protestant and therefore is being used to deceive many. It is just in exploring his doctrines, I was startled by this recent article and would only pray that others would read it and warn of the deception that is now at work. (NOT that any of this is new, we know the adversary is a master of deception, and this will only thicken like fog as the time of Jesus' return draws near.) We are told by Peter not to be 'ignorant', so hence my reference to John Michael Talbot is done with a gentleness and respect, for I too am a musician in ministry and grieve for this man who might at one time have seen the light, but now only sees something that Jesus pulled me out of 'fire' and showed me the Gospel which is the ONLY way to a deeper relationship with God. Mysticism just does not enter into the consideration, and may probably be the most deceptive form of 'devil inspired lure' to this generation who seeks a sign.

Appropriate is this 'easter weekend' when we remember 1 Corinthians 15:1,2 ... The Gospel is the ONLY pathway to our Maker.

Sorry for the confusion. It is not just John M. Talbot, there are many who are preaching the lies of Roman theology out of pure ignorance, and years of playing to the idea of worldly unity and not genuine Christian Unity, refer my newest offering: 'The Devil's Counterfeit' (maybe a little more solution orientated, than this exploration of yet another person who is deceived and in the process of deceiving others.)

'When the enemy will rush in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord will lift up standard against them.'


Last edited by straw; Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:26 AM.
Re: The Cameleon [Re: straw] #35939
Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:46 AM
Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:46 AM
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Robin Offline
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There are many seductive paths leading back to Rome - Talbot's form of "Christian" mysticism being one of them, Federal Vision/New Perspective on Paul being another, and most effectively, the various Charismatic movements.

ExCharisma is not, as you have stated:

Quote
...I noticed that the mission of this forum speaks about a simpler way of life, how weird that one of Rome's Father's should use that very same idea...


"Back to basics" means back to the Bible. Charismaticism is clearly a move away from the historical and Biblical "faith once delivered." With all it's extraBiblical superstitions and fables, charismaticism threatens the gospel every bit as much as Roman Papist fables and superstitions did at the time of the Reformation. And just as they did back then, so also today, the liberating truths restored to us in the Reformation are liberating former Charismatics to the same degree they apply to Roman Catholics.

Re: The Cameleon [Re: Robin] #35940
Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:36 PM
Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:36 PM
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straw Offline OP
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Robin,

Mysticism is a GIGANTIC problem of the past, long before the Reformation, and even before the New Testament Church. It's clutches on both conservative and liberal theology are not solved by saying 'back to the Bible'. It is certainly a fundamental principle, but it is not the only principal that needs to be adhered to. I suggest you read the article I have referred to on my new thread : 'The Devil's Counterfeit'

Mysticism goes to the core of the current error. However, an overbalance where 'true spirituality' is avoided, is tantamount to 'throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Jesus said there would come a time when the true worshippers would worship 'in truth' (yes return to Bible) but also 'in spirit' (do not abandon what has been gleaned from the out pourings of God's Spirit upon his people.)

We need to be basic but also balanced.

Sincerely,


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Re: The Cameleon [Re: straw] #35941
Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:26 AM
Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:26 AM
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straw Offline OP
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Dear Friends,

Dave U (a Plebeian like myself; whoops Straw is now a Newbie <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> ) has a very interesting website, I suggest that everyone has a good look. I noticed that under 'Christian Literature' he had some stuff by BB Warfield and in particular an article titled: "Mysticism and Christianity" - the last stanza applying most signifantly to this thread...(enjoy the rest)

Quote

We may be mystic or we may be Christians. We cannot be both. And the pretention of being both usuallly merely veils defection from Christianity. Mysticism baptized with the name Christianity is not thereby made Christianity. A rose by any other name will smell as sweet. But it does not follow that whatever we choose to call a rose will possess the rose's fragrance.


link: Mysticism & Christianity

Last edited by straw; Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:37 AM.

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Re: The Cameleon [Re: straw] #35942
Sun Apr 08, 2007 6:46 AM
Sun Apr 08, 2007 6:46 AM
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straw Offline OP
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Dear Friends,

Well that was an intetesting read. Right ?

Perhaps a most interesting point is this one which he extracts from 'an excellent paper of Puritan tone' (plus his note..it is hard to say where that ends or begins but it is nevertheless quite revealing)...Right ?

Quote

'Christianity when stripped of its armor of dogma (as who should speak of man stripped of his armor of bones) turned out to be nothing but the Quaker doctrine of the Inner Light. Now, if I were to say that Christianity came into the world especially to destroy the doctrine of Inner Light, that would be an exaggeration. But it would be very much nearer the truth....Of all the conceivable forms of enlightenment, the worst is that these people of call the Inner Light. Of all horrible religions the most horrible is the worship of God within. Anyone who knows anybody knows how it would work; anyone who knows anyone from the Higher Thought Centre' knows how it does work. That Jones should worship the God within him turns out ultimately to mean that Jones shall worship Jones. Let Jones worship the sun or moon, anything rather than the Inner Light; let Jones worship cats and crocodiles, if he can find any in his street, but not God within. Christianity came into the world firstly in order to assert with violence that a man had not only to look inward, but look outward, to behold with astonishment and enthusiasm a divine company and a divine captain. The only fun of being a Christian was that a man was not left alone with the Inner Light, but definitely recognized an outer light, fair as the sun, clear as the moon, terrible as an army with banners.'


Perhaps closer to where he is headed with this article is his solitary sentence after talking about Herrmann, Underhill and Law and others.

Quote

'This is Christ mysticism; that is to say, it is the mysticism in which the divinity which is in every man by nature is called Christ - rather than, say, Brahm or Allah, or what not.'


It seems he has forgotten his earlier reference to Calvin.

Quote

The 'sensus divinitatis implanted in us' -to employ Calvin's phrases - functions inevitably as a semen religionis'


He never really goes on to discuss what John the Divine wrote or the Apostle Paul. My reference to Calvin on another thread Book I Chapter 5, would hold nicely here. It is hard for some to understand though it be true that we are not entirely filled with Christ there is a degree of His light that is there but not enough to bring about Salvation but enough to see and enought to hear, that we are able to be without excuse. God after all does not judge unrighteously. He judges on the basis that some will not come when He calls. Those who do, and receive Christ are then if mind me saying 'fulfilled', 'completed in Christ' or else we are gradually blinded as the Apostle Paul unfolds in Romans 1 (all of it). Until eventually man becomes debased animal idols, (and advance dig at the Evolutionary crowd, huh ?)

All in all, I found BB's article very stimulating, but when leaned over to the idea of Christian Philosopy meeting Philosophy and Schliemacher (I hope I spelled his name right) as so many did attempting to protect the faith by placing it in the realm of feelings to protect it from extinction. Remember secular Philosophy at some point mixed in with Evolution etc, really had many men of the cloth changing sides and entire congregations of believers leaving, (I am probably exaggerating) the point is that to hand of Christianity to idiocy is what was done, in an attempt to save it from the ravages of 'rationalism'. Yet the truth is that this faith we share is not without reason, BUT and a HUGE BUT, it is not then neccesarily without any feeling, for goodnes sake, we all know that there is more to our life with God than simply intellect, or reason, we also have that segment that Dr. Francis Schaeffer calls 'muchmoreness' (I think I am using a new word' --- It is just that so often in our desire to protect our faith from the ravages of secular philosophy and false religion, we can end up having a lot less that we are by God's own hand given to us. It is He who commands us to not only love God with our minds, but also with our hearts, with our feelings, with ALL of our being (that is the point). To lose that is to essentially end up having less that the completeness that is in Christ.

I know I have gone on a bit and I would like to have talked longer, but it is just so sad for me when I cannot actually explain this more clearly. Perhaps when we are at the Lord's table we will not need say a word, for Jesus will have answered all our silly questions in but a few words, perhaps something like....'It's nice to finally all be here' or 'What channel is the cricket on today' --- I am kidding, seriously, the Lord is alive! and that is the only reason I might think that we need to really not shut our eyes to the possiblity of the 'muchmoreness' of our faith, where we have a little more than pure intellectualism. Well maybe a lot more.

I would highly recommend anyone who is perhaps sitting on the fence and thinking as I did, I know there is more here than just what is going on in my mind. I feel things, and I sense things...oh whatever. If you look around on http://www.bethinking.org you should find Dr. Francis Schaeffer and there are three on Apologetics and another one about Faith and Intellect a pretty good listen indeed. Prepare for a little shaking though...he is a clever un.

Peace,
Straw.

How do thinking and faith fit together by Dr Francis Schaeffer.


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