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Tom
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Jan 15th, 2023
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The Boy Wonder
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"Oh, I get it Robin. Some charismatic church hurt you and so now you're hostile to all Charismatics."
-OR-
"Now I get it, Robin. You simply prefer classical music and liturgical worship. Fine, but don't condemn those who prefer acid/demon/punk/puke/gangstarap and reject liturgy. It's just a matter of personality."
Neither is true. Yeah I was hurt, but not embittered for the rest of my life. God sovereignly sent me through that particular valley for His own perfect purpose and my greater good. And you can still find me with my hands in the air and upward-facing eyes closed, lost in sweet abandon as I worship - whether in private or on the Lord's day gatherings at my Presbyterian church. And I find that such abandonment to worship is contagious, for which I am grateful.
We're talking about false teachers on TBN, Straw, not "entertainers" who express sweet sentiments that may just happen to be theologically sound. This thread began as a question about teachers, most of whom are regulars on TBN, whose doctrines are patently false. Many damnable heresies are put forth by these men and women (Note: a damnable heresy is one that threatens the very salvation of anyone who believes it).
It ain't a matter of hostility for old wounds, personal opinion, or personality or taste. It's about doctrine. Does doctrine matter? We already had a thread about that in the ExCharisma forum...
-Robin
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Head Honcho
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straw said:
Dear Sirs,
Do you get it ? We are not all the same. For this difference in personality, are you willing to destroy the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of humble folks who enjoy simple faith, must all need to be complex in their faith to be happy in God. I think not! . . . etc. Yes, I get it just fine.... but you obviously do NOT "get it"!! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" /> It has NOTHING to do with "personalities" but with the WRITTEN WORD OF GOD. It is undeniably true that the Holy Spirit distributes gifts as He wills. And it is also true that God has created each individual with differing intellectual abilities. However, this does not and cannot circumvent biblical truth, aka: doctrine which is where faith originates and to which faith is lived out by all. In this thread, it has been argued that those men and women who are associated with TBN are blatant heretics because of what they TEACH.... get it? We couldn't care less how much a particular individual excites you, titillates your emotions or allegedly improves your prayer life. There are countless unbelievers who belong to all manner of religious groups who will profess that their "leader" moves them to great heights. Yet in every case, their teaching is built upon sand. How often must I and others point out to you that "feelings", even those feelings which you allege are the "Spirit" speaking to you are not of God and thus totally unreliable. The Devil can quote Scripture better than you or I, but He is also a master at distorting the truth and leading people astray. Jeremiah 6:16-17 (ASV) "Thus saith Jehovah, Stand ye in the ways and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way; and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls: but they said, We will not walk [therein]. And I set watchmen over you, [saying], Hearken to the sound of the trumpet; but they said, We will not hearken."
Ephesians 4:11-16 (ASV) "And he gave some [to be] apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ: till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error; but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, [even] Christ; from whom all the body fitly framed and knit together through that which every joint supplieth, according to the working in [due] measure of each several part, maketh the increase of the body unto the building up of itself in love." Now, if you will please notice, I have not quoted any mortal man in this reply nor in the one previous to it. What I have provided are passages of the inspired, infallible, and inerrant WRITTEN WORD OF GOD!. However, I would be remiss not to direct you to this article: Theology for Every Man. "Without absolutes revealed from without by God Himself, we are left rudderless in a sea of conflicting ideas about manners, justice and right and wrong, issuing from a multitude of self-opinionated thinkers." - John Owen (1616-1683) One Puritan said "Showing mercy to the wolf is showing cruelty to the sheep." In His grace,
![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/pilgrim/pil_sig2.gif) simul iustus et peccator![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/Smileys/pencil.gif)
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Is everyone who disagrees with your theological position a leprechaun ? Surely, there has to be place in your heart for others who do not hold to the exact same theological position you do and still be allowed to exist as sheep, or are all those who are not in your exacting camp wolves, monster, demons, shylarks, heretics and whatever. This is rather shortsighted and not even the Son of God employed such simplistic thinking when he dealt with men, already knowing what was in their hearts; he only called some children of the devil, others white walled sepulchres, some wolves, but not everyone who disagreed with him was automatically a wolf, some were confused sheep. He did say to Peter, 'Get thee behind me Satan' and to satan, "Get thee behind me satan', but to little one's who have not all the exacting points of religion according to a exact science was he not streching out his hands and saying, "Except ye become as little children" in your faith, ye shall not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. The danger when one places learning or acquired scholastic merit, to exclude others on this basis, when salvation is granted on the basis of child like faith in the Son of God, to be in error or have been deceived by satan, is something everyone of us has been at some time or the other, it is not a trainsmash, it is a place that the Shepherd often comes to the rocky crag and leans over and lifts back His sheep, to call little straying sheep, wolves is something you will now have to contest with the Great Shepherd of the sheep, I would prefer to reserve my judgment lest I find myself doing something that is reserved for the Son of God.
It is sad when we all resemble Leprechaun, but for the sake of our own elitist puritanical estimation of our current position we fail to realize that none of us is a sheep by our own choosing, but we have been called, adopted, chosen according to the historical, progressive plan of God through the Great Shepherd our Lord Jesus Christ. I would be less inclined to call someone a wolf, and reserve such announcements bringing them under the ONLY JUDGE of the human heart. It might seem clever to establish or to hide behind reems of creedal ideas, but to expect others of simpler disposition to assimilate these ideas and if they have not to assume they are wolves. You look at them, call them by name, but do you even know if their names are written in the Lamb's book of life, can you be sure that your name is written in the Lamb's book of life, and if you are sure, do you not realize it has been given you, for nothing that you have is given you unless it is given you by heaven. We are not so high an mighty that we may descend our evaluations of the sod dwellers everyone and be able to say, 'Sheep, Goat, Sheep, Goat'...this judgment is NOT ours, it is that of Him who judges righteously. To sieze His throne is to act in the role of the adversity, and to this I wonder if I cannot hear the Lord saying, "Get the behind me satan."
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The Boy Wonder
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The Boy Wonder
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I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not mean with the immoral people of the of this world ... but ... with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolator, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler - not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves (1st Corinthians 5:9-13, NASB, emphasis mine). The writer of 1st Corinthians expects Christians to make judgements about others within the church. We are also expected and required to make judgements about the teachings of those who claim to bring God's word: But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you have received, he is to be accursed (Galatians 1:8-9, NASB) You get offended when we make these judgements as if we have no right to do so. But we have an obligation to do so for the love of all the sheep. Most especially the simple ones who are easily led astray. Did you know that the Church has authority on earth even to forgive sin or to retain it against a rebel? I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth have been loosed in heaven (Matthew 16:19 NASB. See also 18:15-18) If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained (John 20:23). The church has authority on earth to shut unrepentant rebels out of the kingdom, to open it to penitent sinners, to judge those within, and expel false Christians (more on church authority here). How are we supposed to do that if we don't judge within the church? Especially we are judge those who teach a false gospel! And it has been proved over and over again in thread after thread here that these people are false teachers and wolves among the sheep. Now how is that the church is to do it's job if we "never judge" anyone - especially those who claim to be "anointed" by God to bring us His word? C'mon, Straw. This ain't about us being theologically narrow-minded or arrogant. It's about the lives and well-being of the sheep. -Robin
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Straw
So far you have not shown any of us that we are wrong concerning our accusations that Word of Faith preachers teach heresy. In fact unless I am misunderstanding you, it seems like you don't really care if they are as long as they are making you feel closer to the Lord. Is that an accurate understanding of what you believe?
You have read quotes from some of these false teachers, but I would like you to show us why based on their own teaching, why we shouldn't believe they are heretics.
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Tom,
I just think that 'heretic' is such as strong word to use about little lambs who have gone astray. I favour the idea of restoring such 'in the spirit of meekness' lest we be found commiting a greater sin, and that of passing the weight of eternal damnation on souls that are escaping but caught in something we can clearly see. It is always the matter of the old 2 x 4 that scatcheth the eyeball and causeth one to poke out the eye of the weaker one in the faith. After all we are in the ministry of saving and restoring, not discouraging and damning. Then who am I to pass judgment on such fine scholars as yourselves who spend many hours counselling and encouraging those who wander into cyberheaven. Then again, cyberheaven can get a little crowded when the elitest spirit is dominant, I am just saying open your hearts fellas, Jesus forgave and we aught to 70 x 7. No?
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Right you are Robin about this not being a matter of personal opinion. Fortunately the words of many of these Word of Faith teachers sink their own ships.
Only the undiscerning can not see this fact.
Tom
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Tom,
Everyone started somewhere along this Pilgrim's way. Some progress and others regress, some get off on Faith, others on Hope, others on Love (you know the Catholic idea that love is God.) It is reminds me a little of the idea of the elephant. Some got the tail and said, 'This is it' etc. It is a pity that so many have what they believe is the head, and shout out, "Eureka" we have it! when in reality it is the head that has them.
Christ is building His church out of not very fantastically brilliant and all cleaned up parts and so we need to really learn to reserve our judgments and let Christ do the judging of them, by His Spirit among us. Being sensitive to the leading of the Spirit is what the early church was really good at, and for sure there were dead Ananias' and Sapphira's and those whose bodies were given over to satan to be destroyed. But to just call a large group of people that may or may not be fully in a particular false teaching, is throwing discernment in the Spirit out of the window. The spirit of meekness that James encourages in the restoration of one who is far from the Lord cannot be avoided for us, if we see ourselves as Apostles or Teachers, or having authority, we need to remember that those who are least, those who are the servants will earn the right to sit, and even then only those who the Father designates to the important seats, will take that place. It worries me when we cannot see clearly examples like when the mothers brought the little one's to be blessed by Jesus and the disciples, (all mature and learned and all, objected)...Jesus' reaction is always what pulls me back to a place of learning. This heaven we are all to enter one day, is not one that favours the hard line, it favour gentleness, meekness, self control, kindness, need I name all the fruits of the Holy Spirit.
The softness of Christ is what has drawn us, His love for us, His greater love, for His friends, and if perchance some of these we label 'Heretic' are no more than friends, who have grown up a bit bent, well in accordance with our perception of what is straight, we might find ourselves stayed by the outstretched hand of God.
Earnestly,
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Straw
I understand your concern, however when it comes to teachers of the Word of God. We can not afford not to call a spade a spade. These false teachers have and are leading many astray.
Have you looked at what the definition of the word "heresy" is?
Do these Word of Faith teachers teach heresy, or do they teach the Word of God the way it was intended?
Understand also that many of these teachers have been approached about the matter privately on many occasions and they refuse to repent.
One such occasion had to do with Hank Hanagraff and Benny Hinn. Benny Hinn supposedly repented, only later to teach more of the same heresy.
In the tape series by Hanagraff called ‘Christianity in Crisis’, you will listen to recorded messages by some of these Word of Faith teachers themselves. As an example, one of these teachers said that each member of the Trinity had its own Trinity.
Is that the Trinity that the Bible teaches?
Tom
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Head Honcho
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Your view resounds with the current emphasis being taught by the "Emergent Church Movement"; toleration. There is an excellent article on The Highway that deals with this issue of "judgment" which you can read here: Is It Right to Judge?. Here are the author's opening remarks: THIS QUESTION—“Is t right to judge?”—is one that puzzles many sincere Christians. A careful and open minded study of the Bible makes it clear that concerning certain vital matters, it is not only right but a positive duty to judge. Many do not know that the Scripture commands us to judge.
The Lord Jesus Christ commanded, “Judge righteous judgment” (John 7:24). He told a man, “Thou hast rightly judged” (Luke 7:43). To others, our Lord asked, “Why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?” (Luke 12:57).
The Apostle Paul wrote, “I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say” (1 Corinthians 10:15). Again, Paul declared, “He that is spiritual judgeth all things” (1 Corinthians 2:15). It is our positive duty to judge. He immediately begins his article with the subject of "False Teachers and False Teaching" which is our subject here. Martin Luther is known for being one who didn't mince words and he stated his policy regarding heretics and heresy in this way: "I am not permitted to let my love be so merciful as to tolerate and endure false doctrine. When faith and doctrine are concerned and endangered, neither love nor patience are in order.... when these are concerned, neither toleration nor mercy are in order, but only anger, dispute, and destruction - to be sure, only with the Word of God as our weapon." In His grace,
simul iustus et peccator
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The Boy Wonder
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Perhaps we should just believe what we feeeel in spiiiirits, instead of being so intolerant and dogmatic. After all, I don't feeeeel as if God should judge "little lost lambs" so harshly just because their teachings utterly destroy those who hear and accept them. Predators need love too! Can't you feeeeeel that?
I've had enough of this absurdity.
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straw said:
I just think that 'heretic' is such as strong word to use about little lambs who have gone astray. I favour the idea of restoring such 'in the spirit of meekness' lest we be found commiting a greater sin, and that of passing the weight of eternal damnation on souls that are escaping but caught in something we can clearly see. It is always the matter of the old 2 x 4 that scatcheth the eyeball and causeth one to poke out the eye of the weaker one in the faith. After all we are in the ministry of saving and restoring, not discouraging and damning. Then who am I to pass judgment on such fine scholars as yourselves who spend many hours counselling and encouraging those who wander into cyberheaven. Then again, cyberheaven can get a little crowded when the elitest spirit is dominant, I am just saying open your hearts fellas, Jesus forgave and we aught to 70 x 7. No? Straw, When I read your sensitivities about using more gentle language, displaying meekness, and not violating someone's self esteem it makes me think about an interview I heard recently with a well-known pastor who expresses those same sentiments. His name is Rev. Robert Schuller. When he was asked about topics like the wrath of God, sin, repentance, faith, and the hope of glory he chooses to use softer words too but unfortunately as you will see he gets lost in the process. He is no longer teaching what Scripture says but he has developed a ministry philosophy focused on positive thinking and self esteem. Below is an excerpt from that interview. Schuller's false teaching is an extremely serious matter in light of his wide influence. His is the most popular religion television broadcast in America. His books sell by the millions. He appears with presidents. His "self-esteem Christianity" has been adopted by multitudes. These believe they are Christians and attend churches; but in reality, they worship a false christ and follow a false gospel. Robert Schuller and his mentor, the late Norman Vincent Peale, are two of the key culprits in promoting this error.
Schuller reinterprets the doctrines of the Word of God to conform to his self-esteem philosophy. His Christ is a Jesus who provides men with self-esteem.
Schuller's gospel is the replacement of negative self-concepts with positive ones. To Schuller, sin is merely the lack of self-esteem. To Schuller, the greatest evil is to call men sinners in a Biblical fashion and thereby injure their self-esteem. Schuller is a Universalist who believes that all people are the children of God. His goal is to help each person understand and enjoy this "fact." Bottom line, Schuller's message is that there is no need for one to recognize his own personal sin, no need for repentance, and no need for the crucifixion of self. In fact, concerning the latter point, Schuller teaches just the opposite philosophy -- that self is to be exalted -- which is nothing less than an outright denial of the Gospel of Jesus Christ:
(a) Personal Sin?: "What do I mean by sin?
Answer: Any human condition or act that robs God of glory by stripping one of his children of their right to divine dignity. I could offer another complementing answer: Sin is that deep lack of trust that separates me from God and leaves me with a sense of shame and unworthiness. I can offer still another answer: Sin is any act or thought that robs myself or another human being of his or her self-esteem" (Self-Esteem: The New Reformation, p. 14). In a 10/5/84 letter to Christianity Today, Schuller wrote, "I don't think anything has been done in the name of Christ and under the banner of Christianity that has proven more destructive to human personality and hence counterproductive to the evangelism enterprise than the often crude, uncouth, and unchristian strategy of attempting to make people aware of their lost and sinful condition" (cf. Romans 1:18-3:20).
(b) Repentance?:
In response to a question from Paul Crouch on Crouch's TBN 12/8/87 television show, concerning critic's claims that Schuller doesn't preach repentance, Schuller responded, "I preach repentance so positively, most people don't recognize it" (cf. Ezekiel 18:30-32).
(c) Denial of Self?:
One of Schuller's books, Self-Love: The Dynamic Force of Success, took Eric Fromm's humanistic self-love teachings and brought them into the church. In Self-Esteem: The New Reformation (Word Books, 1982), Schuller teaches that: (1) the church's problem is that it has had a God-centered theology for centuries, when it needs a man-centered one; (2) we're not bad, merely badly informed about how good we are; (3) it would be an insult to the integrity of any human being to call him a sinner; and (4) "Jesus knew His worth; His success fed His self-esteem. He suffered the cross to sanctify His self-esteem and He bore the cross to sanctify your self-esteem. The cross will sanctify the ego trip" (p. 115) (cf. Matt. 16:24). (See attached reports for more analysis and quotes from Self-Esteem: The New Reformation) [Schuller further amplified this latter thought on the 8/12/80 Phil Donahue Show; Schuller said, "Jesus had an ego. He said, 'I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me.' Wow, what an ego trip He was on!"]
- The following are highlights from an 11/92 radio interview with Robert Schuller; it provides a good snapshot summary of Schuller's perverted gospel of self:
QUESTIONER: Dr. Schuller, did you write "The unsaved person cannot perceive himself as worthy of divine grace and hence rejects it."?
SCHULLER: I may have said that because I am inclined to believe very definitely that the person who is lost and unsaved is afraid of the light. The person who is only used to darkness is afraid of the light and I think unsaved people do not consider themselves worthy enough; I think that's absolutely true, "While we were yet sinners Christ died for us."
QUESTIONER: But not while we were "worthy" Christ died for us?
SCHULLER: Listen, if Christ had died for somebody who wasn't worth anything that would have been a lousy deal. God is a good steward and he teaches us to be good stewards. God knows the worst sinner is worth saving so that he would die on a cross for us.
QUESTIONER: But if we are worth it, then it is not grace, it's merit.
SCHULLER: No, no. It means that we are still creatures of God, we are still sons of God. We have value. We still have value.
QUESTIONER: Would you be willing to address your congregation as a group as sinners?
SCHULLER: No I don't think I need to do that. ... My only concern is: I don't want to drive them farther away than they are! ... I do let people know how great their sins and miseries are. How do I do that? I don't do that by standing in a pulpit and telling them they're sinners. ... The way I do it is ask questions. Are you happy? Do you have problems, what are they? So then I come across as somebody who cares about them ... So the way I preach sin is by calling to attention what it does to them here and now, and their need for divine grace! ... I believe in heaven. I believe in hell. But I don't know what happens there. I don't take it literally that it's a fire that never stops burning.
QUESTIONER: As Jesus said it was?
SCHULLER: Jesus was not literal.
QUESTIONER: Justified from what? The wrath of God?
SCHULLER: Oh! I'll never use that language.
QUESTIONER: But the Bible does.
SCHULLER: Yes, the Bible does, but the Bible is ... a contradiction: Old Testament -- Law, New Testament -- Grace. Jesus is a contradiction; totally human and totally God.
QUESTIONER: Of course we would say that the dual nature of Christ is a "mystery" but not a contradiction.
SCHULLER: It is a contradiction, but you know what? Contradictions are ultimate points of creativity...
QUESTIONER: How could the cross, as you write, "sanctify the ego trip," and make us proud, in the light of passages that say, "I hate pride and arrogance (Prov. 8:13), "Pride goes before destruction" (Prov. 16:18),"The Lord detests all the proud" (Prov. 16:5), "Do not be proud" (Rom. 12:16), "Love does not boast, it is not proud" (1 Cor. 13:4). In fact Paul warns Timothy that in the last days men "will be lovers of themselves" (2 Tim. 3:2). ... Why should we do anything to encourage people to become "lovers of themselves" if Paul in fact warned others that that would be the state of godlessness in the last days?
SCHULLER: I hope you don't [preach this] because you could do a lot of damage to a lot of beautiful people. ... if you preach that text, oh man, I sure hope you give it the kind of interpretation that I do or, I'll tell you, you'll drive them farther away and they'll be madder than hell at you and they'll turn the Bible off, and they'll switch you off, and they'll turn on the rock music and Madonna. Just because it's in the Bible doesn't mean you should preach it. ... it is so difficult to preach some of those texts and not come across as lacking humility ...
QUESTIONER: Dr. Schuller, what do we tell someone who says, "I'm already happy and fulfilled, so why do I need the gospel?"
SCHULLER: I don't know ... I can't relate to that.
QUESTIONER: Ought we to pray, "Our father in heaven, honorable is our name"?
SCHULLER: (Silence)
QUESTIONER: That's a legitimate question?
SCHULLER: It may be a legitimate question but I think it's kind of a dumb question because I don't teach that. Ask someone who teaches it.
QUESTIONER: Well you wrote it on page 69 of Self-Esteem: The New Reformation.
SCHULLER: You know what, I'm tired now. You're laying so many heavy trips on me, and I wasn't prepared for this.
- Since Schuller will not preach from the pulpit the gospel of repentance of sin and faith in Jesus Christ, nor teach from the Bible, what then is the message he propagates? Los Angeles Times staff writer Bella Stumbo, after an extended interview with Schuller, wrote: "In short, Robert Schuller believes that God placed him on this Earth to preach possibility thinking" ("The Gospel of Success," 5/29/83, Los Angeles Times, p. 24). To underscore just how "vitally important" this message is, Schuller once wrote: "I believe in positive thinking. It is almost as important as the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (Michael Nason and Donna Nason, Robert Schuller: The Inside Story, 1983, p. 152).
- Schuller's "possibility thinking" replaces truth. It doesn't matter what or whom one believes, but only that one be positive. He argues that Biblical doctrine may have communicated to people in the past, but to our generation it seems so "negative" and offensive that it turns people off. So what is needed now is a "positive" gospel that everyone can accept. In an article in The Orange County Register, Schuller berated preachers "who spew forth their angry, hate-filled sermons of fire and brimstone." Explaining that the way to "tell the good religion from the bad religion" is whether it is "positive," Schuller exhorted "religious leaders ... whatever their theology ... to articulate their faith in positive terms." He then called for a "massive, united effort by leaders of all religions" to proclaim "the positive power ... of world-community-building religious values." I know it can be hard to listen to someone who is over bearing, out spoken, and argumentative. I don't sense that attitude here. I believe the responses you have received are genuinely concerned for your spiritual well being and discerning truth from error. Even though we may rebuke you for promoting heresy it doesn't mean we don't care about you. Ecclesiasities 7:5 says "It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise than for a man to hear the song of fools." Proverbs 9:8 also says: "Rebuke a wise man, and he will love you." I’d like to remind you that the Lord Jesus Christ didn’t hesitate to call the religious leaders of His day hypocrites, white washed sepultures, and sons of Satan. (see Luke 11:44; John 8:44) Schuller's philosophy would rebuke Jesus for not being more sensitive to the people. After all he might sound negative and destroy their self esteem. The question is... "who's being more loving and kind?" Jesus or Robert Schuller? If you want to read the entire article you can find it here.Additional Schuller quotesWes
When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
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Robin said:
I've had enough of this absurdity. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" /> Me too. Cursed be the love and cursed be the unity that takes the Word of God to the stake.
Martin Luther Denny Romans 3:22-24
Denny
Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 176
Member
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Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 176 |
Okay, okay ! Don't all rush me at once. Thanks Tom, http://www.m-w.com has 'heretic' expressed two ways. 1. a dissenter from established religious dogma; especially : a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church who disavows a revealed truth 2. one who dissents from an accepted belief or doctrine The first one certainly does not apply to me as I was baptised as a Prebyterian at 4 months of age, in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. (I still retain the certificate). I however do not agree with all that is taught under the larger banner of Presbyterian dogma. If I was a declared physical member of said church, then I would have long been labelled a subversive thinker who likes to question the accuracy of dogma, dare I say the existence of dogma at all. Just me be nefarious (fragrantly wicked or impious) <I have never been one to just say, 'Yes, Sir' and charge off to do battle in the name of love, or Rome or the inquisition. I tend to hold up my shield of faith, and keep my sword in the sheath until I am sure that I am dealing with bona fide heretic, and then I would need to make sure that I have a direct word from God before I utter such words directly. Now to the matter of how the Holy Spirit has been bringing the various denominations to a point where there is the Unity that Jesus prayed for in John 17, and to the matter of progressive revelation to the body of Christ as a whole <invisible body - true spirit-filled believers/the elect/disciples of Jesus Christ. I am firmly convinced that what happened to the early church has happened throughout the years. I wish I could remember everything I have read about Church History and I am deeply sorry I cannot. It is however true to say that God started this and He is continuing to bring His bride to a place where she is unified in the bond of PEACE. (The peace of Christ, of course, not the sort that is being celebrated by the likes of so many who are caught up in a hyper-emotional over-balance, be careful now that we shut the door to tight, for in amongst those who are wolves are baby lambs who like you and I, had to learn to look not to the teachers but to the Master. He is the Great Shepherd of the sheep.) Even the great John Calvin, requested and unmarked grave! It is to Christ that we look and to Him we are under as Head of the Church, not the Church as head, as is taught by Rome. I do not bow to a man, or a organisation be it Rome or the rest of Christiandom) Agreed certain things like this matter of a gross overbalance on the teaching faith = prosperity, which Copeland attempted to correct. I listened to his series on this.. He really was trying very hard, to correct and error in his perception, but some errors are harder to change as we get older. Needless to say freezing in dogma mode is just as hazardous as freezing in error mode, both do not allow the flexibility that is required from us to notice when the Spirit of God moves on. The Church History has shown that God has moved on, and on, and on, He is not sitting back with one denomination and saying, "They have it all down, and I am calling all to unite under their denomination", as with what is happening with Rome. The errors of Rome are literal when something is spiritual and visa versa. They have relied so much on the dogma that they no longer can see or hear, but they are trying, this Emergent Edge though harmful to some represents two ragged edges crossing over each other. On one side the Protestant Mystics, and the other side the Catholic Mystics...it is a strange thing to have happened, a little frightening. Yes. However, it is not a trainsmash, it is actually possibly the first time that we might see a Church unified under one ideal. It may be grossly wrong, but it is something that needs to be very carefully considered before we make the mistake of shouting, "Heretics" and bring us back to the dark ages. There is a point to consider though. This is not a outing in the park with Winnie the Pooh, this is war, and Satan is right in the cente of this Mystical Alliance. He is the Lord of the Mystics (evil Wizards) but he is not Lord of the Good Wizards. <please excuse my JRR Tolkien reference, it is not done without definite reason. Why? In my perception of the matter, if you may. We are all Wizards, some are with Satan, and some are with Christ. As we are coming of age and closer and closer to full maturation, it is getting harder and harder to tell a good one from a bad one. To tell a wolf from a sheep. The false doctrines have allowed Bad Wizards to creep in and using similar words and ideas, the showdown is being set for a gigantic delusion. (God inspired) It is WAR, and I am sorry to say this that if we remain cerebral about everything in this war, we are going to be watching rather than participating. So gents if you are going to sit on the sidelines and pass comments, you will be useless in the fray. Making sense of what appears to be senseless is better than having a high and mighty attitude. If you want to sit in judgment and not get dirty, then you need to look to the mind of Christ, who being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God ... and the descent into what we are to be, we need to be servants of all men, to truly be his friends, to sit on a mushroom aka. Lewis Carrolesque smoking our hooka <no direct implication to the head honch meant... is to miss the boat that sails in the morning and it is right into the middle of the problem area. No time to take pretty pain killers, we need to shake of the dust of death and put on the armour if we are to really wrestle, we are not called to wrestle with flesh and blood, with men like "___________" and "___________" < purposefully done because I desire to keep my sword in the sheath until the right moment. Those who refer to Rick Warren and Robert Schuller and Diaprax and whatever, this is old new and the Pied Pipers of Purpose make mince meat out of there scheme, however there is an Emergent edge that is attempting to bring about some form of unity in the Body of Christ and if one is going to go all intellectual and not look deeper to the cry that is going up to the Father for a body unified. It is a bit messy right now, but if we are going to do what has been done, cutting off the circulation to the finger and the toes, because the mind says, the head is right and we are the head, we do need to remember that there is ONE HEAD, even Christ Jesus our Lord. It is to Him that we need to voice our disatisfaction about those with whom we disagree and learn to find the towel, the water, the means whereby to clean what is dirty, not continue to anaethitize, there is nothing worse that ANTI-SEPTIC CHRISTIANITY, IT REVEAL A GREAT BIG BOARD IN THE EYE! Do I sound to much like Brennan Manning, I am sorry, it is not my intention to stay longer on this board that is neccessary, for I have much work to do. It is simply that I have many true brothers and sisters in Christ who are in other denominations and for this I will not allow my dogma to kill their faith, even if it is defective. I will approach as the Scripture instructs in 'the spirit of meekeness' This is how I believe I am being led. I do not expect you to embrace the Light in this way, but if you have a heart you might realize that of all brothers I have stood hard against Rome and it's dogma, and hard against the like of RW. BH. and their ilk, but it is time to look carefully at what we are doing to one another, it is time only see if they have the Spirit of Christ or not. If we see the Spirit of Christ, then we need to pray, to care but not to hold weighty JUDGMENTS as did Robin. Eternally damning a brother or sister makes us in the hot water...just try to keep in mind what Jesus said, about calling others names...Racca is a very hard word. Not dead yet.
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 77
Journeyman
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OP
Journeyman
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 77 |
Adopted said:evangelist said:
So this is you personal opinion correct? Yes, and everyone else in this thread except you. Have you read or considered any of the input from the others? There's enough comments and references to keep you busy for some time if you're really willing to see. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wow1.gif" alt="" /> Denny Romans 3:22-24 Have you maybe thought about the good things TBN has done for this world , sence they are reaching over 300 million people on this planet???
But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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