CALVINISM It is important for us to see what this system is and how it is consistent within itself. The foundation of Calvinism is the Doctrine of predestination. They believe that God is all powerful, and in His Sovereignty, he has decreed whatever is to come to pass throughout history and eternity from the foundation of the world. God decreed what will happen, so it must happen without fail. God will bring everything to pass as He wills because he has already determined that it will be that way. This decree applies to individuals and salvation. It is clear that the Scriptures teach that not all shall be saved, so in Calvin's mind this must be the will of God to only save some (the Elect) and not all. No one or any created thing can resist the will of God whether it be to salvation, or condemnation. Predestination is the cornerstone of Calvinism. If only the chosen ones of God can or will be saved, then God has determined that Christ would only atone for those that He has willed that He will save. This is what is meant by a Limited Atonement . As you can see, a theory of a limited atonement rests on the assumption that the Calvinistic interpretation of predestination to salvation or damnation is true. There is no Bible proof that the atonement is limited, but this is the nature of theology that it has to support its original premise. If a man is predestined, and the atonement is limited to only those who shall be saved, how does God ensure that those that he chose will actually decide to follow Him? This is answered by the next step in this theological system, which is the doctrine of Irresistible Grace. This means that God will draw those he pleases to save, and only those, with a calling that they will find themselves unable to resist. How does a holy God fellowship with those who are predestined to salvation apart from any ethical consideration? If it is based upon God's good pleasure and decree, and all our actions are already predestined, then how can God be one with a "saved" but sinful creature? Calvin solves this with the theory of imputed righteousness. Since according to this system, God is 100% responsible for everything including the choice of who will be saved. Mans' cooperation or cessation from sin is not required because, if man had any input or power to do anything, then God would not be Sovereign and all powerful. In their minds, if man had a free will then God would be at the mercy of man in salvation. Imputed Righteousness claims that the holiness of Christ is transferred to the believer and counted as the believers own. Regardless of the true nature of the believer, God sees him as pure as the wind-driven snow. Now, if one is predestined to salvation, irresistibly drawn to God, and the righteousness of Christ is Imputed to the believer, then he must persevere to the end and be infallibly saved. This is so because God has decreed it to be. Since man has nothing to do with this process, then he cannot undo his predestination, thus he would be what is called in this day and age, "eternally secure." If God can no longer see the predestined sinners sin because of imputed righteousness, (which is an impossibility since God is all knowing) then this makes the Elect person's salvation irrevocable, non-negotiable, and inevitable. If we remove any part of this system because we feel it is untrue, then the entire system falls with it. If there is no decree of God to salvation or hell, then there is no cause or support for a fatalistic predestination. If there is no predestination to heaven or hell, then there is no need to distort the Scriptures to support a limited atonement to a select few. If the atonement is not limited, there is no need to invent a forced grace by a payment for the "elect" alone, or a need to create a fictional imputed righteousness to make up for the ethical shortfall of a doctrine of salvation by fate instead of a conversion of the individual and salvation from sin. Calvin's system meets the need of self-consistency in a superb manner, but is it Biblical?
Last edited by chestnutmare; Fri Oct 15, 20218:28 AM.
Whoever wrote that little ditty, and you should really try to include the author whenever possible, has presented a distorted caricature of biblical Calvinism which is riddled with erroneous conclusions from the very beginning. If, as you say, Watchman Nee would agree with that summary of Calvinism, then he surely didn't know much if anything about it.
In reply to:The foundation of Calvinism is the Doctrine of predestination.
First off, this introductory remark is false. Calvinism's foundation is God, Who has revealed Himself in Scripture, not one part of what He has determined to do in regard to the salvation of sinners. If one were to pick but one aspect of God that Calvinism deems most important, it would be that He is Omnipotent, i.e., sovereign. God's aseity (independence) is incontrovertible as myriad Scriptures teach us. (cf. Rev 4:11; Isa 41:22; 43:13; 44:7; 45:21; 46:9, 10; 55:11; Psa 33:11; 135:6; Dan 4:35; Rom 11:33-36; Eph 1:9-11; et al). The writer posits that because the Scripture declares that not all will be saved, "so in Calvin's mind this must be the will of God to only save some (the Elect) and not all". Calvin came to the conclusion that it must be the will of God not to save all because that is exactly what the Scripture teaches. It is even feasible to conclude that if God wills that all be saved that some will NOT be saved? This would make God's will fallible and is akin to the teaching of Atheism. For, if God is not in total control of all things; having determined all thing according to His immutable counsel, then there is no order to the universe. Events then would occur according to "fate or chance". And what is fate or chance, but no. . .thing.
In reply to:There is no Bible proof that the atonement is limited,
Unless the writer, Watchman Nee and yourself are willing to state that every man, woman and child who has ever been born or ever will be born will be saved, then a "limited" atonement is the only logical choice. And this is exactly what the Scriptures teach; i.e., only some are going to be saved that the remainder are going to be judged and cast into everlasting hell. The question is HOW is the atonement "limited"? Calvinism teaches that the atonement was designed to actually atone for a definite number of people. Arminianism and all cults, sects, etc., teach that Christ's atonement was "indefinite", i.e., He didn't actually secure salvation for anyone, thus leaving those who would be saved to provide something to add to what Christ had accomplished. Simply put, Calvinism teaches that Christ's atonement infallible secured all that was necessary to save those whom the Father gave Him. Arminianism teaches that Christ only provided a "possibility" salvation which is ultimately determined by what a person does. (faith+works=salvation). But the the salvation of God is by grace and grace alone. (Eph. 2:8, 9; et al). See this brief challenge by John Owen to all universalists: For Whom Did Christ Die?
In reply to:then how can God be one with a "saved" but sinful creature? Calvin solves this with the theory of imputed righteousness.
Again, the writer wrongly states the facts. Calvin's teaching of an "imputed righteousness" was not derived due to a logical conclusion or a contrived "theory", but from sound biblical exegesis of myriad passages. See, for example, Gen 15:6; Psa 106:31; Rom 4:3; 5:1-21; Gal 3:6; Jam 2:23; et al). If the righteousness of Christ is not imputed to a sinner, how is it that a sinner is reckoned as righteous? Is he therefore justified by his own righteousness? (cf. Is 64:6; Rom 1:3-18) Or, is righteousness infused into an individual as the Roman Catholic Church and most all cults believe?
In reply to:If God can no longer see the predestined sinners sin because of imputed righteousness, (which is an impossibility since God is all knowing) then this makes the Elect person's salvation irrevocable, non-negotiable, and inevitable.
Once again, the writer has failed to understand the Bible's teaching concerning imputed righteousness. It isn't that God, Who is Omniscient, "can no longer see . . . sin because of imputed righteousness" that a sinner's salvation is irrevocable. But rather, it is because God has decreed to save an individual that it will infallible come to pass. It is simply God's eternal will and His bringing it to pass that makes it irrevocable. Since the Son atoned for the sins of an individual, being a vicarious substitutionary atonement, which satisfied all that the law required, there is nothing upon which God could condemn that individual. As for God "not seeing. . .", this too is erroneous thinking. When a sinner comes to Christ in repentance and a lively faith, God declares that sinner to be righteous. It is a forensic/judicial pronouncement of the Supreme Judge that the sinner is free due to the fact that his debt has been paid in full. Through the blood of Christ the sinner has been reconciled to God. God's enmity has been resolved. God's anger has been propitiated by the removing of the sin which provoked Him to anger. Thus, although the individual continues to sin, the atonement of Christ has completely satisfied the punishment due for them all.
BIBLICAL THEOLOGY where your article was from claims to be an INDEPENDENT VOICE. But, it is not very independent since this is a Methodist site and it belongs to the Independent Methodist Arminian Resource Center. Read what Pilgrim posted. It is an excellent review and rebuke of that article that was hardly independent.
predestination means predestined because God foreknew not because God is playing a board game with himself but because the perfection of free will free to err was given to us. I can see why reformed Calvanism is a reformation. Because it has to get over its problems but I don't know how that is possible, It has to be stricken completely instead of slowly melded back to Armenianism.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]t is even feasible to conclude that if God wills that all be saved that some will NOT be saved? This would make God's will fallible and is akin to the teaching of Atheism. For, if God is not in total control of all things; having determined all thing according to His immutable counsel, then there is no order to the universe. Events then would occur according to "fate or chance". And what is fate or chance, but no. . .thing.
The article stands. A perfect God bestows a perfect will and a perfect will must be allowed to freely in His image to choose . the will has been made so perfect it is truly in the image of God. That is a perfect God that would do this. No fate, free will. God of calvanism may not be God of the Bible because it kills free will and the image of God. God wills all to be saved but doesn't mean all so choose salvation. It doesn't make God fallible, it makes man fallible. It makes God infallible for giving us His image. It all the more glorifies Him that with His free will he never sins and thus we should reprove man for not choosing correctly. The perfection is in not automatons but in the free will being truly free.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]Arminianism teaches that Christ only provided a "possibility" salvation which is ultimately determined by what a person does. (faith+works=salvation).
Choice is not a doing or a worth. choice is so perfect made in the image of God it is a faith unto grace. Saved by grace through free will's choice that must be given in order to be truly free to choose. limited atonement is true in that it is only some who likely be saved but it is false in that God handpicks the saved ahead time like a booky who has the odds fixed ahead of time before the game even begins. God the booky does not exist. God the open door policy guy says all can come in and leaves it up to man's free will who actually does come. This is righteous of God to do this to never mess with man's free will. This is the healthy way to think about it otherwise you run into all kinds of problems of puffiness calvs way and makiing it hard on folks who are coming to Christ when they look at a bunch of puffed up guys. I know that when I heard about Christ what drew me to Him was the fact I had a free choice, it was up to for to receive God's grace. IF I heard I was unsaved and that the only way to be saved was for God to hand pick you, then obviously I was not handpicked. Humbly now being saved I can say God chose me, not by handpicking but because before the foundation of the world He knew I would choose him now having chose him praise the lord. don't get all legalistic on free will be works or faith. it is a choice to have faith in God or not. IT is not a work. I didn't do anything. I chose I exercised my free will and God promised me if I chose Him He would choose me. Low and behond that is exactly what happened. Calvanism is fantasy life. Bring yourselfs down off that pedestal and be lowly and meek in Christ.
In reply to:the righteousness of Christ is not imputed to a sinner, how is it that a sinner is reckoned as righteous? Is he therefore justified by his own righteousness? (cf. Is 64:6; Rom 1:3-18) Or, is righteousness infused into an individual as the Roman Catholic Church and most all cults believe?
Imputation is true in that the Holy Spirit dwelling within gives the believer a new life and then can now for the first time receive things and be sensitive to things of God with a quickened spirit and renewed conscience. Grace works not by magic tricks but by man fulfilling the condition for God's working. IF man resists God will not supply. Man who is saved may resists God all his life and remain a very fleshly carnal Chrsitian. or the saved man could resist very little receive abundant supply. God has his part. We have our part. It is a relationship. In calvanism it is a one way street. In armenianism it a true relationship just like the Son has with His father and the Holy Spirit, 3 Persons in a relationship. Its not all grace, and its not all man. This is the healthy way, God's way of dealing.
So imputed yes. but not imputed to solve the problem of limited atonement specifically. See the differnce? With all many assumptions there is part truth and part additional assumption (and mistake). It is that part truth you are holding onto of automaton life that has a mistake of free will not being made in the image of God an imaged free will that is perfect not because it cannot sin but becaus it has free choice.
As for imputed righteous, I prefer it to be dependend not on playing pretend God that God has made up his mind alread so imputations are already devised but rather resistible, not unto unsalvation but unto life's living.
Once saved always saved I believe. The trick is a lot of people think they are saved that arent' and even some that don't think they are, are. When God gives the gift of eternal life he don't take it back, its eternal. I hope this isn't reason you are rejecting free will for perseverance of the saints is armenian truly. its our little itty bitty Christian pride I AM- SAVED. We can even have pride of salvation. Though it need not be so if remain humble in the Lord
This is how I Biblical refute this all, using all verses of scripture that are relevant that back this up.
dont be a killin the perfect free will's ability to choose for or against for that is why it is perfect my friends and like the big guy chooses we so to choose before the fall and after. God donta messa witha tha free willy. That is rule#1 in God's book to walk with His creation. He doesn't want to walk with automatons he created like a booky. God is not taking bets from gamblers, controlling the odds, rather he has a chance to go broke and he has a chance to win the big one. It is all up to the free willies to pick and choose. whatever happens you takes your chances and that is what free willies is all about and if you donz likz it too bad because that is what being made in the image of God is all about, not a board game with God the only player anymore. Now its God and the free willies coming to a town near you. God's free willies gets God excited because He is getting his free willies to Have His life so he can be with them and walk with them out of His glorious self. He can't wait. He is so excited what he has done. maybe he will save only one or maybe he will save 100 billion but whater the bets come out as we know one thingz.
It is righteous. pure, that is the number, a pure and righteous number of the fullness of the gentiles to come because God did as best he goodz doz it. He can do no more. Finished work of the cross is done.
Amenz!!!
p.s.z. whats it all about? its about freez the willies. set them free for they are a comin to a town near you. and that town is New Jerusalem baby. Get excited. God is. God don't believe dem folks saying he is playing a board game all by himself. He donz wants to walk with them. He wants to walk with the ones that are like Him and choose His life. He accepts not substitution, he wants the real deal holyified.
I should be a minister, my mind is so clearified. No. I wait to see where the Lords me in all things as I pray above I receive His inner leading within in that still small voice and live Christ-like.
I am sure Pilgrim will respond, but in the mean time, I thought the following was appropriate.<br><br>Dialogue on God’s Soveriegnty and Predestination<br><br>Gerstner: "If God is sovereign, then it was determined from all eternity that you would be sitting here with me right now." <br><br>Sproul: "That makes me a robot." <br><br>Gerstner: "Well wait a minute. Are you telling me you didn't choose to come here tonight?"<br><br>Sproul: "I did."<br><br>Gerstner: "You weren't forced to come here against your will, were you? Did you have a sense of some force inhabiting your body, causing you to be here even though you had chosen not to be?"<br><br>Sproul: "No."<br><br>Gerstner: "Did you sense something interfering with your will, causing you to do something you didn't want to do, or had no intention of doing?"<br><br>Sproul: "No. But how could I have had any choice in the matter when God determined that I was going to be here?"<br><br>Gerstner: "But you just told me that you did choose to be here and exercised your will to come tonight. You did have a choice. You did exactly what you wanted to do. You weren't forced here against your will. So however God got you here, it wasn't by forcing you to be here against your will, as if moved involuntarily by a strong wind."<br><br>Gerstner's approach was to appeal to the objector's own experience, where they know infallibly that they haven't been forced to do anything against their will, but have always, in every case, done exactly what they had chosen to do. It's tough to keep up the robot argument in the face of that knowledge.<br>
In reply to:[color:"blue"]Gerstner: "But you just told me that you did choose to be here and exercised your will to come tonight. You did have a choice. You did exactly what you wanted to do. You weren't forced here against your will. So however God got you here, it wasn't by forcing you to be here against your will, as if moved involuntarily by a strong wind." Gerstner's approach was to appeal to the objector's own experience, where they know infallibly that they haven't been forced to do anything against their will, but have always, in every case, done exactly what they had chosen to do
By Gerstner's own words, "free will", hence it was not a board game by God, it was Him making us in His image a free will. Since man wasn't forced or inexplicably drawn then any poking and prodding by God never did ever infringe on man's free will.
Why are you so afraid to allow man to exercise his own free will in agreement with God together and graced there upon by God when the redeptive design is allowed to work of deliverance from sin, self, supernatural. Like any relationship the more you are true to that friend the more they are true to you, not by outward works but inward dealings and allowing God's releasings and strengthenings, just like my friends then give back freely; now how much true is this of God Almighty.
That giving back was not of me, it was of my friend for it came from my friend (God). I had nothing to do with it, it was all Him, but I was able to receive it finally by fulfilling his condition for reception. He wanted desperately to give it to me day 1 but through my own will I was not willing to listen until day 5. Now I have what is of His that is not of me but soley His choosing to bestow grace by the conditions He set for fulfilment.
God set this condition, this righteous condition upon himself to not bestow grace where grace is not righteously bestowable. Mercy yes, perhaps. But not grace. Grace is righteously bestowed.
Game, set, match.
Have I come to the right place or what? Thanks Nee, you are a great teacher. But it was really the Holy Spirit in my spirit conveying His mind in the still small voice of my spirit imparted to the mind of my soul to convey it in sound reason and clarity.
Troy, you said... "The article stands. A perfect God bestows a perfect will and a perfect will must be allowed to freely in His image to choose . the will has been made so perfect it is truly in the image of God. That is a perfect God that would do this. No fate, free will. God of calvanism may not be God of the Bible because it kills free will and the image of God. God wills all to be saved but doesn't mean all so choose salvation. It doesn't make God fallible, it makes man fallible. It makes God infallible for giving us His image. It all the more glorifies Him that with His free will he never sins and thus we should reprove man for not choosing correctly. The perfection is in not automatons but in the free will being truly free."
Why do you think the 'will' has to be 'perfect'? Was man 'perfect' in knowledge? "perfect' like God in power? Perfect like God in foreknowledge? Can God choose to lie? No? Then we see that even His perfect free will can't choose every option. lying is an option of a free will isn't it?
Did you know that I deposited a million dollars in an account for you? Why didn't you withdraw it in the time alloted? I mean after all, do you not have free will? Couldn't you have chosen to withdraw it? Oh? You didn't know it was there? I guess free will does not help one choose an alternative that one doesn't know about.
I want to dunk a basketball over Tim Duncan! I freely choose to do that! I'm 5'9" 240 lbs and I can barely jump a fence. Think my 'perfect free will' will help slam one on him?
You are insulting in that when someone asks you to give a biblical refutation of a position and you fail to even attempt to use the Bible but then declare to use the biblical verses of scripture that back it up. What a cop out. Is that how you like to be treated, in a cavalier manner? If you bring an honest question or even a thought out view point that differs with someone and seek to honestly debate the scriptures that each of you think support the views, then others can understand why you think the way you do and even if they disagree, unity among brethern is not lost. But when you are cavalier about someone else who has taken the time and effort to explain to you their beliefs, it shows how immature and selfish you are.
Here is the deal with God's sovereignty. The Bible paints a beautiful picture of the tension between God's sovereignity and man's responsibility. We do not know what God has ordained or who He has chosen. All we know is what we are told about how to receive salvation, to believe in Jesus, the son of God and savior of His people. Predestination is not a killer of free will. In calvinism, everyone gets what he wants. If you desire to be saved and believe in Jesus then you will be saved! That is the side of man's responsibility.
You cannot deny the other side of the coin though. Scripture throughout has always shown how God set His love on a people and redeemed. Was there anything special about Israel that God should have redeemed them from the Egyptians? No, they, like us were just as sinful as those who God did not redeem. In the same way, the story of redemption is present in the new testament, though in perfection.
John 6:37-40 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent ME, that of all that HE has given ME I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
As I stated earlier here is a picture of the tension between God's sovereignity and man's responsibility. All those that the Father gives the Son WILL come to Him. And at the same time He says that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him WILL have eternal life. Our will does not mute or change God's will but rather testifies to His perfect will.
This chapter goes on to say vs 44: "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
Ok so it is the Father who draws those who can come to Christ. And all that the Father draws (has given to the Son vs. 39) will come to Him. So then are all men saved? Obviously not, but the scripture testifies that those whom the Father gives to the Son will be saved.
Eph. 2:1-6 "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working int he sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love whith which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)"
As is said here, we were dead in our sins. Our soul had not the capacity to rightly choose God over the flesh. But while we were still in our sins and dead, He made us alive in Christ. See if anyone truely had free will apart from God's will, then no one would be saved.
I have to go to work so I cannot futher expound the subject. But here are a few scripture references for you to go over in your spare time. Acts 13:48 (make sure you note the order of events in this passage), Eph 1 and 2, Rom. 8:28-39, Rom. 9...there are plenty more that testify to God's sovereign will being excecuted in our lives, but again, I have to go to work.
If God's will doesn't reign, then why do we have say "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven" ? (Matt. 6:10).
Calvinism is not based on the doctrine of election, rather it is just an exposition of what the Bible teaches, if that be predestination, then it is predestination, but know that it covers much more than that.
God's sovereignity doesn't make us robots or our salvation any less sweet, rather how much more does it make our salvation sweet! That God should choose a wretch like me I will never understand, but I praise Him all the more for it.
I am not surprised by how you responded but disappointed that you offered not one reference to Scripture in your remarks. And from those remarks, it is obvious that you, like the author of the article you chose to represent your own views, and I must assume those of Watchman Nee, whom you esteem to be a little less than Christ, know very little about the historical teachings of Calvinism. I'll therefore only deal with a couple of items from your reply as the majority of it was unfortunately irrelevant to what I wrote:
In reply to:[color:"blue"]don't get all legalistic on free will be works or faith. it is a choice to have faith in God or not. IT is not a work. I didn't do anything. I chose I exercised my free will and God promised me if I chose Him He would choose me. Low and behond that is exactly what happened. Calvanism is fantasy life. Bring yourselfs down off that pedestal and be lowly and meek in Christ.
You mentioned "free will" in several places and the Fall, but you offered nothing to support what you believe from the Bible. What reason can you give for your denial of God's Word in regard to the doctrine of the Fall and its effects on mankind? Why have you chosen to ignore the myriad statements about how depraved fallen mankind is and man's total inability to love God, righteousness, holiness and Christ? Even God Himself doesn't have the type of "free-will" you are wanting to accredit to fallen mankind. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/rolleyes.gif" alt="rolleyes" title="rolleyes[/img] Now, I don't know what you are speaking about at all when you had the need to "flame" me and chide me to not "get all legalistic on free will be works or faith". The fact is that it is those who are insistent that man has a "will" that is so free that it can choose that which is contrary to his very own nature; something which even the Omnipotent God Who created man cannot do. Are you wanting me to believe that God created a creature that is greater than Himself?
And what are these disparaging remarks you wrote: "Bring yourselfs down off that pedestal and be lowly and meek in Christ." The fact is that Calvinism produces humility and lowliness by default. Since a sinner is totally unwilling and unable to even have an interest in God by nature, how is it that one who has been resurrected from the dead by a sovereign God of mercy due to the sacrifice of another and given all things in Him that one could possibly think highly of himself? That's utter nonsense.... and I do believe you know that. One who is conscious of the fact that they have been saved by GRACE and not by their own free-will decision is most humble as he knows "salvation is of the Lord" (Jonah 2:9; Eph 1:4-13; et al).
We, who have been brought to the cross and to the person of the Lord Christ, having been made alive by the Holy Spirit according to God's eternal and immutable decree of election, know that if God had not "hand picked" us, we would still be cursing God and reveling in our sins.
Ephesians 2:1-9 (ASV) "And you [did he make alive,] when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:-- but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly [places], in Christ Jesus: that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory."
Although it is doubtful you will bother doing so, I would like to refer you to a brief little article I wrote that puts these doctrines into a graphical form so as to make them much easier to understand. You can find that article here:
Pilgrim wasn't saying, and God doesn't say, that you don't have a will.
You do, all men do, the scriptures freely attest to the fact that man has a will. But your will and my will and every man's will is in bondage to blindness and ignorance and pride and foolishnes and lusts, in short, to every kind of sin imaginable, until God takes the initiative to reveal The Truth to the man.
The reason the will is in bondage is that we don't see the blindness and ignorance, etc. that we are involved in (the scriptures say our "understanding is darkened") until the Spirit of God, in grace and mercy, through no merit in ourselves, but rather because of His sovereign love for whom He chooses, begins to powerfully show, reveal, disclose that blindness and ignorance and foolishness and pride and hypocrisy to the chosen vessel of mercy. That's what blindness is, the INABILITY to see. Being blind to one's blindness is the most hopeless and wretched of conditions.
Troy, this is done with power, divine power, so that the person is impressed, DEEPLY IMPRESSED and convicted with the REALITY and EXTENT and PERVASIVNESS, and UGLINESS and FILTHINESS of his depravity and blindness apart from the work of God. This work is a work of the Holy Spirit of God and no man can reveal it in it's power nor forget it completely once he has passed through it (though he may for a time be permitted to drift from it in order to again impress upon him his fallen nature and his continuing blindness with out the Lords help). In describing this process the scriptures say, among other things: "Thy people shall be willing in the day of Thy power," Ps 110:3a, and in John 6:45a; "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God."
In this work of God, this divine merciful work, the vessel of mercy FEELS, powerfully feels, and begins to understand for the first time, his ignorance and helplessness, and no longer doubts that he is a complete and total sinner and needs, DESPERATELY NEEDS, a savior. He sees that the justice of God in the DAMNATION OF SINNERS IS JUST, is pure and right and HOLY AND GOOD and he tells the Lord, for the first time in true heart felt honesty, that he is sorry for his sins and for the PAIN THOSE SINS CAUSED CHRIST ON THE CROSS, not just the pain they have caused himself, and the offense those sins caused to the FATHER'S INFINATE HOLINESS and JUSTICE, and these things become real, not just words or ideas or concepts or doctrines.
As such, the person shown these things no longer argues with God about His sovereignty in choosing whom He wills, because he sees God for the first time as He really is, just and holy, and himself as he is, sinful and ignorant and utterly polluted. Arguing with God becomes the last thing on the mind "made willing in the day of His power" and he sees for the first time how prideful and ignorant such arguing is.
Until this happens some men talk about a savior, and think that they need one and even say that they do, but deep down in the hidden recesses of our prideful hearts, we are actually offended that we are dependant on God the Father to provide for a plan for our salvation, on HIS SON, JESUS CHRIST, for doing the actual work of deliverance from our hopeless, helpless condition in providing atonement for our sins and imputed righteousness for eternal life in God's PURE, CLEAN presence, and on His Spirit for teaching and revealing all of these things to us in their spiritual significance and meaning.
The experience of feeling and seeing these things in their spiritual reality and depth, or actually only some of it, for we are not capable of seeing all of it in our flesh, is a work of God's Spirit and He teaches the man in whom it occurs that his will is anything but free apart from the influences of His Spirit. This experience teaches him that his will has been perverted by his spiritual ignorance and blindness since he first left the womb, and that it is God "with whom he has to do", and God sees him as he is and can do with him what He wills, and whatever He chooses will be right, including sending him to eternal hell for his sins, if God so chooses.
The man's will is not lost or perverted or coereced in this process at all, in fact, it becomes more free than it has ever been, because in a measure he sees things for the first time, through God's grace, as they really are. Again, he sees himself as a desperately wicked sinner, bound for an eternal just punishment, in need of the Savior, the only Savior, Jesus Christ, the son of God, and him crucified, and he sees that God himself has dealt with him to reveal these realities.
As such, that sinner begins to beg and petition God, his only hope, for mercy, pure uncontaminated mercy, so that if He wills it, that person might be saved by the blood of the Lamb. Usually, he doesn't ask once or twice, but usually many times, depending on how long God thinks it right, and when the Lord thinks it right, then He will reveal something of His love, mercy, peace and pardon to that humbled soul, and it will be made clear that this peace and pardon is only in and through the work of Christ on the Cross and His atoning death for that person's sins PERSONALLY, who Christ has loved, personally, from the foundation of the world.
Troy, that is the Gospel. That is the good news.
And part of what makes it such good news is that it is a work of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit from first to last, from eternity past, for once you have been shown spiritually how deceitful above all things and desperatly wicked your heart is, you won't want to trust in your will or your "decision for Christ", or any of mans teachings, or anything, apart from a divine work of God in your will, making it "willing in the day of His power". You will see for the first time that anything else is a work of man, and thus not to be trusted.
At one time, I read a great number of Watchman Nee's books, and held great admiration for him, but I must tell you in all honesty that I read little or nothing in his works of the true Gospel I have described to you here and that the scriptures attest to from first to last. Indeed, the fact that Nee could make the statement he did about his "Spiritual Man", attesting to it's "perfection", and to do so late in his ministry, when all true believers have been humbled to a considerable degree, is a red flag of huge proportions as it reveals his blindness to his blindness. I don't know what God did in Watchman Nee's heart in those 20 years he spent in prison; from my recollection of the accounts I read, we know little of it. Perhaps he taught him the things that I have described here, I hope so; but I know this, what I have described here is the true Gospel in which "every mouth is stopped" before God and the sinner is abased in the dust and there is no free will, none what so ever.
Troy, the experience of the saints of God in the salvation of their eternal souls, in the process I have tried to describe above (very briefly and imperfectly I know) is a process that can be done rather quickly, if God wills, as in the case of Paul on the Damascus road and in the days following, or in the case of the Phillipian jailer, but more often, it takes weeks, months and years, as the Lord wills, and the humbling process continues (albeit usually with less intensity after a saint has been initially humbled and then manifestly pardoned as I have outlined) until a man is laid in the grave, and is finally free of his corrupt nature, which he has learned to abhore.
May the Lord in His Grace, "enlighten your understanding" and give you "eye salve to annoint your eyes" to see these things with spiritual eyes.
Free will is perfect in its freeness. Free will's perfectness to choose free will is given by God. God did not give us perfect knowledge. God said don't eat of the tree of good and evil. Perfect free will needs to be given its perfect choice to sin having God made this perfect free will in His image.
You should know about this free will because God has given it to you. So as to take responsibility for yourself to choose God.
You are misunderstanding what perfect will means. Perfect will means it is the same will as God's. The only reason God never makes a mistake with that free will is because He is God. The reason we make mistakes with our free will is because of the fall of Adam and Eve. That is all. You have noone to blame except the first man and first woman, and thus yourself.
I forgive you for jumping at me. Or for thinking I am calvier. If you choose not to accept God's image of you in your free will and think you are an automaton, I will hand such a thing back to God to deal with.
You seem to be asking for a verse. Here it is. Plus read the story in the garden.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
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